A newb beginning Menoth but not starting with the battlegroup?

[iFayt]

Well to start this off, I have played only 1 battlegroup game about a year ago with menoth back when i was more into warhammer 40k. Times have changed and while ive been deployed i have put much thought and research into how I want to start my army.

First question: Is it unwise to not start out with the battlegroup?

Youre probably asking yourself why would I not start out with the battlegroup? Well I just kind of want to be different and not do the whole "pop and drop" lists starting out. After reading about Menoth, the thought of burning everything caught my eye and I would love to focus on that. For that reason I thought I would try and give eFeora a try.

On to the lists that I have conjured up

15 pts:

eFeora (+6)
-Redeemer (6) [Bonded]
-Vanquisher/Reckoner (8)

min Choir (2)
min Exemplar Errants (5)

~15 Pts~

Although i havent really played at all this list does throw up a couple of tiny red flags. No real heavy Jack killer and maybe a Focus stress on eFeora. I dont know if infantry is common in 15pt games and feel that the Vanquisher while looks like he could hold his own in melee, might be too much AoE for the lack of infantry i might see. For that reason Reckoner might take his spot.

For 25 pts:

eFeora (+6)
-Redeemer (6) [Bonded]
-Vanquisher/Reckoner (8)

min Choir (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Covenant of Menoth (2)
Wracks (1)

Max Exemplar Errants (10)
-Officer and Standard Bearer

~25 Pts~

This list I tried to fix up the problems of my last list. I added Wracks and a Vassal of Menoth to increase damage output while reducing focus stress. I increased the Errants to max and added in the UA. I also put in a Covenant of Menoth to allow the Errants to shoot Continuous Fire. Still lacking the Heavy Jack killing power so on a list like this with max errants I would probably switch to the Reckoner.

And lastly 35 pts:

LIST 1:

eFeora (+6)
-Redeemer (6) [Bonded]
-Vanquisher (8)

Avatar (11)

min Choir (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Covenant of Menoth (2)

Max Exemplar Errants (10)
-Officer and Standard Bearer

~35 pts~

LIST 2:

eFeora (+6)
-Redeemer (6) [Bonded]
-Vanquisher (8)
-Reckoner (8)

min Choir (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Covenant of Menoth (2)
Wracks (1)
Another Vassal of Menoth or Exemplar Errant Seneschal (2)

Max Exemplar Errants (10)
-Officer and Standard Bearer

~35 Pts~

List 1 I tried to solve the Heavy Hitting problem by adding in the Avatar. This allows me to keep the vanquisher for added AOE and I dont have to worry about giving the avatar focus. This however comes with some problems. I lose the wracks which in turn adds a little more focus stress and the avatar is not part of eFeora's battlegroup and therefore cant benefit from escort.

List 2 stops worrying about rather to take the Reckoner or Vanquisher and just keeps them both. This keeps 2 points up in the air and the only thing I could think to add was either another Vassal of Menoth or a Exemplar Errant Seneschal. Adding in another Warjack unlike the avatar really puts this list in stress city since now im upkeeping 2 spells and providing power for 3 jacks with 4 focus plus Wracks.


Sorry for the long winded post but ive been doing some research before making this post and wanted to throw all my thoughts down at once. I want to remind everyone that Im a newb and have only played 1 game, maybe watched a dozen or so be played so take my lists and theories on each list with a grain a salt when you beat me up for it .

I have read the Menoth book and the Prime II rule book and have done some research so come up with what you have read. All this looks good to me on paper but I dont know what the enemy will/is able to bring to the table so my mind is kind of one sided.

Just to Recap:

Is going this route and skip buying the battleground set a good idea or am I just a stupid newb? I came up with this because I kind of want to be different and not play with pKreoss at least not yet.

Is eFeora too hard to play starting up?

How are the lists?

Is it too much shooting for a mainly melee army?

Would it be better to just bring Temple Flame Gaurd instead of Exemplar Errants?

Do my strategies/Theories fit each list or am I completely wrong?

Thanks for reading this and hopefully you guys can help me out before I get back from my deployment and start buying models.

[stormshaft]

I consider myself to be rather new to the game as well (been playing for about a year) but I must say that you seem to have caught on to it rather quickly.

All of the lists are viable and very much playable. Now for my thoughts on your questions:

1. Is infantry common at 15pts?

- I would say no and yes. In my experience some infantry at these low points is just overpowered. A Retribution-list with a Phoenix and the full bunch of Mage Hunters with UA and Solo is just silly and almost impossible to beat for someone with the battleboxes as the basis.
A good idea to get into the game is to play "Mangled Metal" until reaching the 25p lists, this minimizes most problems with superb infantry and let's you grow into the game.
But if your gaming group decided to play regular games at 15pts then I would say your list is fine, maybe exchange the Vanquisher/Reckoner for a Templar for some extra beatiness (since you already brought the Redeemer to solve the anti-infantry.

2. Your 25pt list.

- It looks very good. Similiar to how I play her. Though I would take out the Redeemer, take a Templar and bond it and leave the Book at home. Ignite will work very well on both the Templar and the Errants and the Vassal + Vanquisher will spread the fire!

3. Is going this route and skip buying the battleground set a good idea or am I just a stupid newb? I came up with this because I kind of want to be different and not play with pKreoss at least not yet.

- It is very much ok and not newbish at all. pKreoss is a walking feat with Defenders Ward and not much else. In my experience he is not a lot of fun to play but if the enemy doesn't have any means to negate knockdown he is very powerful.

4. Is eFeora too hard to play starting up?

- She is a bit harder than pKreoss (since he is very straight forward) but if you like hard hitting and "fast" warjacks she works like a charm. Never, ever forget about Escort, and if you get a lot of focus from her feat, use Fire Step to set up an assassinationrun with her.

5. How are the lists?

- They seem well balanced and fun.

6. Is it too much shooting for a mainly melee army?

- Considering she wants to set things on fire I would say no. The Errants under Ignite are good in melee (weapon master!) and they have blessed as well as being a superb roadblock. If you can somehow get Rhupert Carvolo in the list he can make them tough. Take the Book into account and you have a Self-Sacrificing tough unit that doesn't get knocked down. Yummy.

7. Would it be better to just bring Temple Flame Gaurd instead of Exemplar Errants?

- They work completely different, they are good at what they do but they are even better with a Warcaster with a +Def and/or +Arm buff. The Errants are a lot of fun to play since they can shoot magical arrows, hit with weapon master attacks in melee and have great utility with Self-Sacrifice.

8. Do my strategies/Theories fit each list or am I completely wrong?

- Just like your lists they seem good and interesting. Go try a few games (proxy the models if needed) and see for your self, and don't forget to come back to tell us how it went.


May Menoth bless your blades!

[iFayt]

I consider myself to be rather new to the game as well (been playing for about a year) but I must say that you seem to have caught on to it rather quickly.

Thanks, I like to do a lot of research before jumping in and just spouting off nonsense

But if your gaming group decided to play regular games at 15pts then I would say your list is fine, maybe exchange the Vanquisher/Reckoner for a Templar for some extra beatiness (since you already brought the Redeemer to solve the anti-infantry.

I figured I would struggle in the anti-heavy killing department but is the Templar better than the Reckoner at this? From my stand point I see the Templar might be able to take more hits but the Reckoner can charge and use his ranged weapon to shoot as he moves up?

Your 25pt list.

- It looks very good. Similiar to how I play her. Though I would take out the Redeemer, take a Templar and bond it and leave the Book at home. Ignite will work very well on both the Templar and the Errants and the Vassal + Vanquisher will spread the fire!

Is there any partiular reason to trade out the bonded Redeemer for the Templar as apose to keeping the redeemer for the fire spreading and using the Reckoner/Templar for damage? Ive read a few threads on Templar vs Redeemer bonded and the only thing ive got out of all of it, is that it reduces the focus stress on Feora because youre not dumping 2 focus to the redeemer every turn.

If you can somehow get Rhupert Carvolo in the list he can make them tough

I was un aware of the different mercenary solos I could use. He does seems to be very good. Would it be better to take him instead of the book for the 25 point list? Since the book was mainly to support the errants spreading fire, I feel giving the errants tough is better than spreading some fire.

Just like your lists they seem good and interesting. Go try a few games (proxy the models if needed) and see for your self, and don't forget to come back to tell us how it went.

Thank you, but sadly i am still deployed at the moment and thats why I made this thread to really tweak out these lists before I get home and start throwing money around on models. I dont want to make a terrible choice and waste lots of money for nothing.


So I made these lists for the obvious reason, to burn everything down and whatever is left standing, beatdown. I wish I could playtest these lists so that I could relay on trial and error/experience to help make these decisions but sadly in a deployed setting that is not possible. So thats why I and relaying on you guys for your awesome feedback and suggestions to tweak these lists. Any feedback is welcome!

[stormshaft]

I can see why I seem a bit... fond... of the Templar when I read my post now.

Wall of text coming up! :O

Both Warjacks (Templars and Reckoners) have great abilities and possibilites, I'll try to throw down my opinions here.

The main thing about the Templar it is that there is quite a bit of synergy with said Warjack and eFeoras bonding, more than might meet the eye (yes, I do love Transformers).

1. All his hits will cause Continous Effect: Fire (thanks to the bond), with a reach Weapon and potentially 6 Attacks (again thanks to the bond, just as long as you don't charge) that's quite a lot of fire.

2. The destructive capabilities; under Ignite + the Choir buff he dishes out a nice PS 21 (straight dice to damage on most of the toughest Warjacks out there, he even gets +2 to the dice against other Templars and the Avatar thanks to his Chain Weapon). And the extra attack with the shield hits with PS 16, nothing to sneeze at.

3. Plus he is more mobile than might first strike you, Spd4 is not that impressive, but, since you are upkeeping/casting Escort on Feora anyway (you are, aren't you?!) he is Spd 6, with a Reach weapon with Beat Back.

In other words, under the right circumstances you can have him Charge 6+3" plus his Reach, meaning he has an initial threat range of 11", then with every hit you score you can move the enemy model 1" and follow up, hit another model follow 1" and so on, up to 3 extra inch after the charge move.
This gives him a total threat range of 14", in a non-linear advance (depending on the position of the enemy models).

Just beware that Beat Back is directly away, and be mindful of eFeoras control range.


With a bonded Redeemer, you get three 3" aoe's that cause fire, but nothing else. It's nowhere near "bad", but that's all you get.
Even though it's a bigger investement, I prefer a Vanquisher with a Vassal, it throws out a lot of fire and is more survivable, plus it can absolutely handle it's weight in melee if you give it the choir buff and Ignite.


The Reckoner is generally considered our best non-character Jack. And I agree. It brings both a heavy stick, a great threat range and some nice debuffs to our tables.
However, it is less survivable than the Templar (not a lot)

1. Under Feoras bond, all his attacks cause fire as well, if he's not bonded you can get critical hits that cause fire with his cannon. Much like the Templar here, the Reckoner has reach as well.

2. The Reckoner has the neat trick called Assault, which gives him an extra attack with the cannon when you charge. This is pretty awesome, no wait, it's very awesome, especially considering Flare. This can be used to tag targets you REALLY want to hit, with the Reckoner or something else entirely. The treatrange with the cannon is massive. With Escort up, the Reckoner can actually shoot at stuff that's 22" away. With the bond he can tag models halfway across the board.

3. With Escort, he is very fast, able to run a full 12" if needed, however, he lacks the extra movement the Templar gets from Beat Back, so his charges are in a straight line with no sneaky stuff.

4. With Ignite and the Choir hymn of Battle he hits as hard in melee as the Templar (lacking Beat Back and Chain Weapon-capabilities though), but if you charge (to get off the Condemner-shot) you lose a focus to buy extra attacks and might even have to use a focus to boost the attack roll, leaving you with 1 focus if unbonded or 2 if bonded.
But with that said, a fully loaded Reckoner with Hymn of Battle will bash face like a boss.


If you are on a tight budget I would suggest getting the Reckoner first (wait for the plastic box with Reckoner, Sanctifier and Castigator!) since you will be using it in many, many lists (more than the Templar in all honesty).
When (if) you buy the other Heavy Warjack-kit (with Crusader, Vanquisher and Templar) I suggest you magnetize both kits so you can use all of the weapon choices, there are a lot of really good instruction-threads about it, I can find one for you if you are interested.

Regarding Rhupert and Errants Exemplars, you should use him together with the Book, he can give them Pathfinder (which they already get from their UA), +1 Def and Terror (not that game changing considering the EE lack a good enough Def to make them really hard to hit) and Tough and Fearless (the only real choice for the EE).
If you can get both him and the Covenant in your lists somehow the Errants will give your opponents a good headache.



Other good Mercenaries to get are Saxon Orrick (can give Pathfinder to your Warcaster and solos as well, something Rhupert can't), Madelyn Corbeau (gives a boost to Cmd and a nice little extra move to help with assassinations), Eiryss (preferably the epic version, pEiryss is more or less only against Warmachine-opponents) and later on Orin Midwinter (shoots lightning and can shut down enemy magic).


Sorry for the wall of text!


I wish you the best and hope you come home safe and sound!

[iFayt]

I dont mean to sound stubborn or anything so dont take my analysis as completely bashing your way of thought.

You make the Templar sound truly amazing and I feel he fills the melee role extremely well but heres my take on everything.

The Redeemer being bonded by Feora allows it to set fire to anything it hits with its skyhammer. With a range of 16 and a movement of 7 with escort, the redeemer will most likely be hitting the enemy forces on turn 1. With the inaccurate aiming this gives me the chance to either completely miss, destroy lots of infantry(since from my game reviewing it looks like everything is bunched up on turn 1), set whatever doesnt die on fire, or if im lucky enough I could even light the warcaster on fire turn 1.

The way I see it, the Templar while bonded isnt even going to set anything on fire till it gets into melee which is what, turn 3? At P&S 21, its probably going to wipe out whatever I charged anyways so it being bonded seems like a waste. While the Templar does seem amazing I just cant wrap around my head why it competes for the bonded slot against the redeemer.

While yes I 100% agree the Redeemer will be pretty much useless in the end game when everything is in melee and the Templar will step up and beat everything down. I feel as if the Redeemer would have more than enough made up for its points from AoEing models down on Turn 1&2. The way I see it is that Models I kill on Turn 1&2 cant even attempt to kill my models which in turns allows my units to have a better chance to getting into melee.

Maybe im seeing this completely wrong I dont know, this is just me looking at the book and theorizing everything. Feel free to convince me otherwise.

As for the Reckoner vs the Templar in a melee aspect. The Reckoner as a little lower Armor which like you said wont make that much of a difference but the reason I think the reckoner is better is for its ability to shoot its ranged weapon as it moves up the field. The reckoner is faster than the Templar so actually the Reckoner should be hitting melee first. But my plan is to charge the Reckoner on turn 1 which will obviously fail but it allows my to shoot my ranged attack. Like you said above, thats a 22" threat. If you count in the 10" deployment from my side and the opponents side, I should be able to hit any advance deployed units and thats if I go first.

In the end I see it as the Reckoner brings more Utility to the army as a whole where as the Templar runs up and just beats down everything. I see it as all the little small things add up to truly make a difference in the whole army and every piece supports everything.

[stormshaft]

Your points are of course as valid as mine and you definately seem to have gotten your head around this game very quickly.

- The Redeemer is, as we've agreed on, a fire-plate-thrower and not much else, and it does it well.

- The Templar is one of our best melee-jacks, an Ignited, bonded and Battle Hymn'ed Templar can potentially wreck a Colossal with lucky rolls.

- The Reckoner is our best overall Warjack without a doubt, you can even use it as protection for Feora since all living enemy models within 2" of it gets -2 attackrolls, giving Feora a DEF of 17 against opposing models withing 2" of the Reckoner, plus it will give her the +2 ARM from Escort, something you probably wont get from the Templar since it is a lot more "in your face".


I'm not trying to convince you not to get the Reckoner, it is great and you can't go wrong if you buy it and bring it, I just gave you my thoughts on a combination (bonded Templar + Vanquisher) that I find better than bonded Redeemer + Reckoner.
Not saying one is better or worse, it's totally dependent on playstyle.

[iFayt]

Does Feora Bond give something other than continuous fire that im not seeing? You said something about Templar having 6 attacks in your other post. Also I cant cast Ignite twice right? So the templar would be competing with the errants who would most likely want the ignite more since it affects all of the models?

[stormshaft]

A bonded Warjack can also be allocated up to four focus (page 246 in the Prime Rulebook), and no you can't Ignite the same model/s twice for double bonus.
One model/unit can however be affected by all of the following at the same time:
- One upkeep spell of your own,
- One upkeep spell from the enemy,
- One Animi (a Hordes Warbeast-spell of sorts),
- Any number of "regular" spells (i.e. not upkeeps).

Just be aware that not all spells are "model/unit", some are just "model" and "unit" respectively.

You are correct on your other assumption, the Errants are good with Ignite, PS11 and Weapon Master attacks will do serious damage, especially on the charge.
A tip is to cast Ignite on one unit in one round, use it in melee, upkeep it on the same unit at the start of your next turn (costs one focus instead of two), activate said unit, then activate Feora and cast Ignite on something else, next you activate the freshly ignited unit and deal more damage.
Thus using it twice in the same turn, on two different targets, it's called "cycling upkeeps".

[iFayt]

A bonded Warjack can also be allocated up to four focus (page 246 in the Prime Rulebook)

Oh wow I didnt know that. That is good to know for sure!

no you can't Ignite the same model/s twice for double bonus.

Yeah i knew that you couldnt cast it twice on the same unit, I was talking about casting it 2 times on different models/units.

A tip is to cast Ignite on one unit in one round, use it in melee, upkeep it on the same unit at the start of your next turn (costs one focus instead of two), activate said unit, then activate Feora and cast Ignite on something else, next you activate the freshly ignited unit and deal more damage.
Thus using it twice in the same turn, on two different targets, it's called "cycling upkeeps".

Oh wow now isnt that a little dirty trick lol. I like that a lot! The only problem I see is that unless its Feoras feat turn, upkeeping Ignite and Escort is 2 Focus, Recasting Ignite on Templar is another 2, only allowing you to add 2 Focus to Templar so you cant really exploit it too much.

I would love to hear what others think about this as well but it seems as its you and me talking this out lol. I really do appreciate all this help/information youre giving me.

It really comes down to Feora lacking Focus. Would the Reclaimer be a good add to try and help out along with the Wracks? I know that the Reclaimer doesnt get any soul tokens if the Errants Self Sacifice but would it be worth it? or would I need more of an infantry spam list to really benefit from all the models dying?

[stormshaft]

Yeah i knew that you couldnt cast it twice on the same unit, I was talking about casting it 2 times on different models/units.

My bad, misunderstood. You can, technically us it twice in the same round, there is no use to it however, since when you cast it the second time, the first Ignite disappears, regardless of if it was cast on the same unit or two different.
So it's basically one upkeep per Warcaster.

Oh wow now isnt that a little dirty trick lol. I like that a lot! The only problem I see is that unless its Feoras feat turn, upkeeping Ignite and Escort is 2 Focus, Recasting Ignite on Templar is another 2, only allowing you to add 2 Focus to Templar so you cant really exploit it too much.

Yeah, it get's very expensive very fast, one way to help with the focus straint is to include a Hierophant (who can make one spell cost 1 less focus) and/or Wracks who can give out one extra focus each round (at the risk of exploding!).

Sorry if you felt I hi-jacked the thread. I'll keep a lower profile!


I would love to hear what others think about this as well but it seems as its you and me talking this out lol. I really do appreciate all this help/information youre giving me.

[iFayt]

With as many views as this has I was hoping on getting some opinions from others. Not only from the Templar vs Redeemer aspect but suggestions, tips, and comments on the lists as well.

I think changing the second Vassal to a Heiropant in List 2 on the 35 point might be a good choice to support the weight of the Redeemer, Vanquisher, and Reckoner.

I know I said this before but would changing out the Errants for TFG be worth it to free up some points? I know Errants are more effective but I could always add in Rhupert and give them tough till they get to the front lines. Or are the Errants just simply better all around? I mean the TFG have shield wall and with their UA they have their mini feat to add +4 arm.

This would free up 2 points spending 8 for a full TFG and UA vs 10 points for full Errants and UA. I could also drop the book for another 2 pts allowing me to spend 4 points on changing out the Redeemer for a Templar, use the Vanquisher instead of the Reckoner, and for the last 2 points maybe get Rhupert to give the TFG tough?

[iFayt]

Opps Double Post

[iFayt]

Just an update:

Ive been playing around with the lists and heres what ive come up with.

15 Points

eFeora (-6)
- Templar [Bonded] (8)
- Vanquisher (8)

Min Choir (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Wracks (1)

~15 pts~

25 Points

eFeora (-6)
- Redeemer [Bonded] (6)
- Templar/Reckoner (8)

Min Choir (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)

eEiryss (3)
Max Exemplar Errants & UA (10)

~25 pts~

35 Points

eFeora (-6)
- Redeemer [Bonded] (6)
- Templar/Reckoner (8)
- Vanquisher (8)

Min Choir (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Wracks (1)
Vassal Mechanik (1)

eEiryss (3)
Max Exemplar Errants & UA (10)

~35 pts~

50 Points

eFeora (-6)
- Redeemer [Bonded] (6)
- Templar/Reckoner (8)
- Vanquisher (8)

Avatar (11)

Max Choir (3)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Vassal of Menoth (2)
Wracks (1)

Rhupert (2)
eEiryss (3)
Max Exemplar Errants & UA (10)

~50 pts~

So heres the lists ive conjured over the past week. I would really love some feedback before I actually start buying up models. Good or Bad, Comments, Concerns, and Suggestions are welcome

[Venom321]

My thought are that the starter box has our good base stuff. Crusader standard heavy repenter is a great light and revenger gives you an arc node with reach all great models. I would suggest a starter and pickup efeora to run with it. Besides the bonded redeemer or templar is all about your play preference. We are the jack faction and its a great base to start with. KEE are amazing doesn't matter who you play them with. Choir also always play. avatar is amazing. the new jack kits will be out soon if you know how to magnatize or know someone who does you'll have the crusader/templar/vanquisher and Sanctifier/reckoner/castigator. U could just pick up those 2 jack kits and a choir to get an idea if you want to save money and test. i would test for what you like first. proxying never hurts if your like me youll pick up one of everything anyway.

Happy Hunting

ps Crusader repenter and revenger normally at least one finds a place in all my lists. and crusader is base for all our characters but avatar so its good to start with him.