PP Thinks we're fine on releases: Discuss

[Gremlingsp]

Why not just a model/unit that lets one model ignore stealth kinda like Rhoven from menoth. That would let us have a jack or something be able to snipe out trouble makers like the sauce. I'm afraid that things may get crazy if we had a flare or B13 like stealth negation ability.

[Gho5t]

How about a character Arcanist that can give a single myrmidon certain abilities, like True Sight? It would prevent you from requiring any particular warcaster, stop MHSF from going over-the-top, and it would still fit the character restrictions in SR2012 so you couldn't fit him into every list.

[FranzGrenstein]

How about a character Arcanist that can give a single myrmidon certain abilities, like True Sight? It would prevent you from requiring any particular warcaster, stop MHSF from going over-the-top, and it would still fit the character restrictions in SR2012 so you couldn't fit him into every list.

Character would not be good, because of character restrictions in the current steamroller. FA:1 @ 2-3 would be fine.

[Cannotcope]

How about a character Arcanist that can give a single myrmidon certain abilities, like True Sight? It would prevent you from requiring any particular warcaster, stop MHSF from going over-the-top, and it would still fit the character restrictions in SR2012 so you couldn't fit him into every list.

Character would not be good, because of character restrictions in the current steamroller. FA:1 @ 2-3 would be fine.

Character restrictions would be fine, because Retribution's "need" to deal with Stealth is limited to Battlegroup Stealth (granted by Shadow pack casters, which are characters), Tartarsauce (character) and possibly the various Stealthed casters (all characters).

Retribution doesn't particularly need multiple lists to deal with these threats (as your opponent can typically have only one list with them), and therefore a character solo would be fine.

[Demeritus]

Well I do know that when I was at L&L I was pushing for a Ret model to get Tune Up (See Thor).

[NEoJoe]

Character restrictions would be fine, because Retribution's "need" to deal with Stealth is limited to Battlegroup Stealth (granted by Shadow pack casters, which are characters), Tartarsauce (character) and possibly the various Stealthed casters (all characters).

Retribution doesn't particularly need multiple lists to deal with these threats (as your opponent can typically have only one list with them), and therefore a character solo would be fine.

Suddenly, Kaelyssa?

Edit: Aside from the stealthed battlegroups, that is. But we'd honestly need a hell of a lot to deal with that better than they'd deal with us.

[Ilay]

Need is such a strong word. It would be nice, yes. But we hardly need it. People got along just fine in the game before there was such a thing as Stealth mitigation. Every faction has an intentional weakness built into their faction. This just happens to be our's.

Yeah "need" is a bit of exaggeration.
Stealth mitigation would be definitely nice, though. See, I'm a hardcore player at heart and my favorite games are "one list for everything, go for the throat" type.
We have great caster for this - Vyros (and possibly eVyros). But I just happen to like Ossy. I think it is clear from where my frustration with eLyl comes )
Sigh. Guess I just need to learn how to break her back with Ossyan. My Face Is My Shield! Lame WH pun intended.
On releases. Actually I think that PP is right - we are fine. We have less options, yes, but what we have is really solid. Also Ret is easier to collect than any of big four.
However I see a number of signs that weaknesses for sides will be at least somewhat mitigated if not removed completely. Namely - naga for LoE, overseer for Cryx and new archers for Circle.
We have defined or main issue - battlegroup stealth. Maybe it will be addressed in next releases. After all Ios has divinators in fluff.

[FranzGrenstein]

Suddenly, Kaelyssa?

Edit: Aside from the stealthed battlegroups, that is. But we'd honestly need a hell of a lot to deal with that better than they'd deal with us.

My experience with Kae is she needs +2-4" range or +2 pow on her gun; for her to have a solid second win condition. She suffer from the classic ret caster malady "overbalancing", how Rahn slipped though I will never know.

[PG_Sobek]

Well I do know that when I was at L&L I was pushing for a Ret model to get Tune Up (See Thor).

Hmm... Did you suggest that in the modeling development panel? I might have been in the same session if so.

As far as Stealth mitigation, I kind of hope that we don't ever get it on some grand scale. The only idea for it that I kind of like is the one that someone presented about a Stormfall attachment that would have different arrows than the rest of the squad. One of which that would be able to lay out a 3" Fire Beacon or something. A single 3" would be helpful, yet not completely game changing. It'd still require us to deal with stealth, for the most part, the old fashioned way.

[Bully Bully Mahu]

I said it before, and I will say it again.

Guidance. We need a solo with guidance. (See Extoller Soulward from Skorne).

I play both Ret and Skorne, and it is frustrating that my extreme melee threat Skorne has better stealth mitigation then my combined arms elves.

I do agree with this discussion though, we don't need gun mages, or ways for our ranged units to ignore stealth. Our melee threat is too good for that to be balanced in any way. However, if I can give one gun Eyeless sight a turn? Oh, that opens up so much. Deamons become even more awesome against Banes, Hypnos can shut down one of eLylith's ravagors to help survive the assassination run better, Garyth has a pretty decent ranged assassination against squishier casters.

You want to see Ret place well in tournaments, that one thing you need to give them. They are fine in literally every department outside of that.

[Demeritus]

Hmm... Did you suggest that in the modeling development panel? I might have been in the same session if so.

As far as Stealth mitigation, I kind of hope that we don't ever get it on some grand scale. The only idea for it that I kind of like is the one that someone presented about a Stormfall attachment that would have different arrows than the rest of the squad. One of which that would be able to lay out a 3" Fire Beacon or something. A single 3" would be helpful, yet not completely game changing. It'd still require us to deal with stealth, for the most part, the old fashioned way.

Well I was trying to get my idea across of a jack support battle mage for a league but we ran out of time and it wasn't one of the largest vote receivers.

[Ana Su]

I do agree we have a stealth issue. Its not uncommon to face an all stealth army in my meta. So when you are facing three full units of banes, our aoe's dont even make a dent in the arm values, potentially killing one or two in the round it takes for them to engage in combate, at which point everything dies.

[Murkhadh]

I do agree we have a stealth issue. Its not uncommon to face an all stealth army in my meta. So when you are facing three full units of banes, our aoe's dont even make a dent in the arm values, potentially killing one or two in the round it takes for them to engage in combate, at which point everything dies.

bring melee, problem solved.

[clawtooth]

bring melee, problem solved.

At certain points levels there simply isn't room. Oddly enough, my meta is mostly 15/25 points which is far outside the norm, mainly because it's prefered to get multiple games rather than only maybe one or two per day. At these levels it's quite hard to fit a melee unit into some forces.

[Gho5t]

bring melee, problem solved.

Sounds foolproof, right?

eLylyth shows up. When placing terrain, the eLyl player drops 2-3 forests on the table. Suddenly, running to engage isn't so easy and leaves your running units open to be picked off by Striders and Raptors. You've lost the entire front unit and a couple of models in the second. eLyl BG is still in the forest out of engage range. A myrmidon might be able to get in range to shoot one of the warbeasts or a Raptor.

This scenario has happened to me a couple of times. Really lacks what I define as "fun".

[Murkhadh]

Sounds foolproof, right?

eLylyth shows up. When placing terrain, the eLyl player drops 2-3 forests on the table. Suddenly, running to engage isn't so easy and leaves your running units open to be picked off by Striders and Raptors. You've lost the entire front unit and a couple of models in the second. eLyl BG is still in the forest out of engage range. A myrmidon might be able to get in range to shoot one of the warbeasts or a Raptor.

This scenario has happened to me a couple of times. Really lacks what I define as "fun".

At my shop the two players playing do not place terrain, in casual games a we ask someone who works at the store or another player to do terrain for us.

Also

EVYROS!!!

[Murkhadh]

At certain points levels there simply isn't room. Oddly enough, my meta is mostly 15/25 points which is far outside the norm, mainly because it's prefered to get multiple games rather than only maybe one or two per day. At these levels it's quite hard to fit a melee unit into some forces.

The game doesn't become balanced till at least 35 points and more so at 50. Your goin to have weird match-ups at any less points than that.

[Gho5t]

At my shop the two players playing do not place terrain, in casual games a we ask someone who works at the store or another player to do terrain for us.

Also

EVYROS!!!

Yeah, but eVyros was JUST revealed. =P

[Demeritus]

Yeah, but eVyros was JUST revealed. =P

But damn is he awesome.

[Indy]

Now I'm actually thinking [Vyros2] might be a bigger step forward for the faction than Ossyan was..

Once again, Vyros just rides on in and steals Ossyan's thunder...

I don't have all that much to contribute to the thread, really. I do think our colossal brings more to our faction then the others really brings to theirs, however. More bells and whistles would have been nice, but I'm glad that we got a tough, hard hitting beatstick of a jack for a reasonable price, who actually works quite well with a number of the buffs we've got available. Compare this to, say, the Conquest or the Stormwall, where one wonders what it brings that they don't really have in some capacity or another.


So... I at least we've got quality releases?

[AJ the Ronin]

I will say, yes it looks like it.

[PMAvers]

i would love to see a UA for the stormfall archers that give flair shot to the unit. or jsut the UA its self droping a flair shot.

That would definitely make sense.

Or maybe a WA for Riflemen that can fire them.

(Hate to keep cramming all the eggs in the MHSF basket, might as well spread the love around some.)

[rolandhadley]

This sounds perverse, but I almost wish the MHSF didn't have Phantom Seeker. That way, PP wouldn't be afraid to give Ret powerful casters with access to great buffs like other factions get.

[Chip]

I just had a flash of inspiration - what about a Houseguard Commander/Mage who has a buff for both Riflemen and Halberdiers? Say Arcane Precision and either Repel or Hard for Halberdiers? It'd both give the Houseguards different roles from the Dawnguard units AND gives us some limited anti-stealth (without giving it to the DREADED MAGE HUNTERS!!)

Hell, I'd pay 3 points for something like that

[Gho5t]

I just had a flash of inspiration - what about a Houseguard Commander/Mage who has a buff for both Riflemen and Halberdiers? Say Arcane Precision and either Repel or Hard for Halberdiers? It'd both give the Houseguards different roles from the Dawnguard units AND gives us some limited anti-stealth (without giving it to the DREADED MAGE HUNTERS!!)

Hell, I'd pay 3 points for something like that

I like it. And I'd finally buy a unit of Houseguard Riflemen.

[TheShadowedTruth]

I just had a flash of inspiration - what about a Houseguard Commander/Mage who has a buff for both Riflemen and Halberdiers? Say Arcane Precision and either Repel or Hard for Halberdiers? It'd both give the Houseguards different roles from the Dawnguard units AND gives us some limited anti-stealth (without giving it to the DREADED MAGE HUNTERS!!)

Hell, I'd pay 3 points for something like that

Now that's an idea I can get behind.

[FearLord]

I just had a flash of inspiration - what about a Houseguard Commander/Mage who has a buff for both Riflemen and Halberdiers? Say Arcane Precision and either Repel or Hard for Halberdiers? It'd both give the Houseguards different roles from the Dawnguard units AND gives us some limited anti-stealth (without giving it to the DREADED MAGE HUNTERS!!)

Hell, I'd pay 3 points for something like that

A 3pt model to grant a situational ability to ignore stealth to our weakest ranged unit? Where do I sign up...

[Indy]

Actually, a model that granted True Sight to the riflemen would be pretty awesomFolks might actually consider using them instead of mage hunters all the time.

Maybe something like a Kovnik Joe, bt for the Houseguard... well, one can dream.

[Gho5t]

Actually, a model that granted True Sight to the riflemen would be pretty awesomFolks might actually consider using them instead of mage hunters all the time.

Maybe something like a Kovnik Joe, bt for the Houseguard... well, one can dream.

You could fit something like that into a Ravyn list along with full MHSF and a unit of archers at 35. If only...

[Demeritus]

To be honest, I would like to see a Joe like (though likely not as powerful) solo for our Houseguard units.

[Chip]

A 3pt model to grant a situational ability to ignore stealth to our weakest ranged unit? Where do I sign up...

Well, I'd rather that than further making our better unit EVEN better, wouldn't you?

[FearLord]

Well, I'd rather that than further making our better unit EVEN better, wouldn't you?

I'm all for a buff that turns Riflemen into our anti stealth option, but I'm not paying points for a model that gives me Arcane Precision... "Take this reasonably expensive unit, add an expensive solo and then if you activate him first, and agree not to move the unit, you can shoot some infantry that have stealth (or get one biggish CRA against a high DEF / ARM model with stealth)" is not going to improve anything... True Sight would be much better, and still wouldn't make this combo auto include...

MHSF should obviously not be allowed to ignore Stealth, because then there really is no protection from them other than distance, naturally high DEF / ARM and dice... Ultimately though, if they want to give us some form of Stealth Mitigation, it needs to be able to make some kind of impact on Stealth Battle Groups or there isn't much point doing it - a UA for Stormfall archers that lets them ignore Stealth would allow some kind of threat to a Stealthed Heavy or a solo that gave out guidance would be fine in my opinion - not overwhelmingly good, but not really weak either. A caster with Mage Sight could also work, but without some other ranged buff I'm not sure it would set any worlds on fire...

I can honestly live without any kind of anti stealth buff though - I think eVyros and Hyperion both open up options for dealing with the worst problems that stealth gave us before (no pathfinder for melee heavy armies led to a heavy ranged weighting in list design and expensive, fragile, pillow fisted jacks didn't stack up well to heavy Legion firepower...)

[Demeritus]

A Rhoven type solo would do well for Retribution. I can't believe I just said that.

[Matthaeus]

AJ, as much as I agree that that's the best way for them to do it ... they simply won't do it.

TIme constraints, budgeting, playtesting ... it'd be too much ... and for what? SO they can catch up a faction which, as far as I can see, is the least popular in the game.

'bit late to the party, but have you considered the lack of support might be a significant reason for the lack of popularity ?

As a beginner, I'll say I like dem angry elves (they're a pretty interesting take on a big fantasy cliché), I think their esthetics are neat, but I feel like other factions would give me more options to have fun with, chiefly more warcasters. And we all know the warcaster is the cornerstone of the list and defines its playstyle.

If that is how they reason about Retribution, it's a vicious circle.

[Chip]

I'm all for a buff that turns Riflemen into our anti stealth option, but I'm not paying points for a model that gives me Arcane Precision... "Take this reasonably expensive unit, add an expensive solo and then if you activate him first, and agree not to move the unit, you can shoot some infantry that have stealth (or get one biggish CRA against a high DEF / ARM model with stealth)" is not going to improve anything... True Sight would be much better, and still wouldn't make this combo auto include...

It's better to wish for 3 point Arcane Precision and get 2 point True Sight than the other way round

To be brutally honest though, I could live without any anti-Stealth properties - I have Halberdiers - but meh, if people are willing to accept wanting buffs for my beloved Houseguard, I'll take 'em That said, I'm also picturing this dude with a Hellebore style rifle-halberd combi cannon too, which may or may not be a contributing factor to me wanting it B)

[serrasin]

Coming to this a bit late, but here is my 2c.

I will continue to play with what is provided and do my best to find solutions to my problems. I will try to do it without whining but will point out and avoid models which either do not interest me nor perform in a meaningful way.

That being said; I am very sore about the difference in stance between Retribution and Hoards. Why is one more deserving of being caught up than the other? I was looking at buying another faction; but I have decided not to. At this point, if Privateer Press wants my money, they will have to get it through Retribution releases now. =angry face=