eVlad/Vlad2 50p SR tournament list?

[@Kriegsspiele]

I'm thinking about this list for a 50p SR tournament:

• Vladimir Tzepesci, Dark Champion +5 points
• * Drago 8 points
• * Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker 2 points
• 10 Iron Fang Pikemen 8 points
• * Iron Fang Officer & Standard 2 points
• 5 Iron Fang Uhlans 11 points
• 10 Kayazy Assassins 8 points
• * Kayazy Underboss 2 points
• Kayazy Eliminators 3 points
• Kayazy Eliminators 3 points
• Lady Aiyana & Master Holt 4 points
• Widowmakers 4 points
• Reinforcement: Devastator, 9 points

What do you think about it? Which changes would you suggest?

[@Kriegsspiele]

Changed the reinforcement to:
- Fenris 5 points
- Great Bears of Gallowswood 5 points

[The Buoyancy of Water]

I'd like to fit a drakhun in there, but I'm not too sure where you'll get the points. Possibly the widowmakers, or drop an eliminator unit and switch Wyshnalyrr down to a war dog?

That's my thoughts anyway! The drakhun is stupid good under feat turn, but so's everything else you have in there

Just noticed Aiyana and Holt actually. What are they there for? Magic attacks or +2 DMG? eVlad doesn't need help dishing out the hurt, so if they're only there for that I'd say they could go. Or, replace them with doom reavers They are plain silly with feat + Transference.

Cheers,
Dave

[hoya4life3381]

You need Saxon Orrick. Kayazy/Eliminators without Pathfinder in terrain will charge like 4.5-6 inches depending on how much terrain needs to be passed over. It's really sad when you're Kayazy can't make it to their targets....

[@Kriegsspiele]

Dave, Drakhun is not available ... yet. And indeed, Aiyana is for magic attacks: wouldn't have any except of Vlad otherwise. There'll be a lot of Cryx - and I don't know how much incorporeal stuff. It's expensive, but with Aiyana I won't even have to fear a complete incorporeal army. And thanks to the Widowmakers I can take out incorporeal solos, too. - I love Sylys with eVlad: 1 extra focus feels priceless with Transference at hand. I'm playing eVlad extremely defensive (last line), so 8'' to hotswap Hand of Fate is pretty neat as well - and the war dog sadly doesn't help against ranged attacks.

Hoya, very good point! Thought about it, but I simply can't see the 2 points. What would you swap for Saxon?

You didn't say anything about the reinforcement? I'm still not really sure about it...

[Saekyn]

Dave, Drakhun is not available ... yet. And indeed, Aiyana is for magic attacks: wouldn't have any except of Vlad otherwise. There'll be a lot of Cryx - and I don't know how much incorporeal stuff. It's expensive, but with Aiyana I won't even have to fear a complete incorporeal army. And thanks to the Widowmakers I can take out incorporeal solos, too. - I love Sylys with eVlad: 1 extra focus feels priceless with Transference at hand. I'm playing eVlad extremely defensive (last line), so 8'' to hotswap Hand of Fate is pretty neat as well - and the war dog sadly doesn't help against ranged attacks.

Hoya, very good point! Thought about it, but I simply can't see the 2 points. What would you swap for Saxon?

You didn't say anything about the reinforcement? I'm still not really sure about it...

I always run Sylys with e.Vlad in my games. He's amazing utility, but interestingly enough, I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I truly *needed* the one focus a turn he saved me. The added range is often undervalued but it's probably one of Sylys' best aspects.

If you're facing a bunch of Cryx, I don't think your Widowmakers are going to get a ton of use against all that Stealth. Perhaps consider trading the Widowmakers for a Marksman and Saxon?

[@Kriegsspiele]

I always run Sylys with e.Vlad in my games. He's amazing utility, but interestingly enough, I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I truly *needed* the one focus a turn he saved me. The added range is often undervalued but it's probably one of Sylys' best aspects.

Absolutely. There's nothing worse than not being able to hotswap Hand of Fate!

If you're facing a bunch of Cryx, I don't think your Widowmakers are going to get a ton of use against all that Stealth. Perhaps consider trading the Widowmakers for a Marksman and Saxon?

Very interesting suggestion! But I don't believe in one Marksman to hunt down chickens. That's what Widowmakers do pretty perfectly (thanks to Hand of Fate). And most Cryx players pretty much rely on their chickens (my army's curry ).

[@Kriegsspiele]

Strike! Won 3 out of 3 games yesterday. 2 more today. But well: not one incorporeal model to fight yet - although I've had two games against Cryx.

[Saekyn]

Your meta must differ from mine somewhat: my usual opponent is Cryx and he loves to spam Thrall infantry, usually Banes or Biles with Occultation up. Glad to hear your chicken-hunting went well, however.

[@Kriegsspiele]

I didn't have a chance to judge my meta for the #SM12: http://j.mp/SM12WMHO - It's been a first time team tournament, so nobody really had a clue.

I've played 3:2 (my team 1:4 - ouch), so my 2nd day was a mess. - At least I've found use for Aiyana on day 2. But all in all I should have expulsed Aiyana&Holt for a Marksman and Saxon. Saxon would probably have saved my life in game 5 and game 4 would have been a loss with or without Aiyana. Anyway: eVlads stats against Cryx was 2:1. Strike!

BTW: Game 5 was against pKrueger: I never played against him and it's indeed a great "Warlock" (Cygnar Warcaster to be serious). Wondering why I haven't seen him yet? Wonderful playstyle with unbelievably vast options. Just lovely!

[quotemyname]

Saxon Orrik is a must. The second unit of Eliminators not so much. I find that if they are what's going to get the job done for you, it only takes the one unit. However, they're great as reinforcements when paired with Yuri&Friends.

I absolutely love my Uhlans and I get a wonderful kick out of running them. But I don't quite feel they're worth the 11 points in the tournament scene. I'd drop them and consider some of the following replacements:

Marauder (7) It's one our best Warjacks. Under Assail it's just plain silly. Charge 9" deliver a combo slam for a P+S20 Slam for d6+2"! Wow!

eEiryss (3) many players say she's a cop-out, and she isn't always necessary to be sure, but TBH, that ONE TIME you have to remove a crucial upkeep from your own guys, you'll be counting your blessings that you've got her.

Doom Reavers (6) they're a great help as an early distraction and to soak up some early threat. In the off chance that one survives until your feat turn... Hilarious.

Saxon Orrik (2) *Reconnoissance FTW! If you're looking for places where you can fit him in, this would be it.

My normal eVlad list at 50 points is:

Vlad +5
Drago 8
Marauder 7
Sylys 2

Doom Reavers 6
eEiryss 3
Gorman 2
10 IFP + UA 10
10 Kayazy + UA 10
Kayazy Eliminators 3
Manhunter 2
Saxon Orrik 2

Reinforcements:
Kayazy Eliminators 3
3x Iron Fang Uhlans 7

I change out a few things here and there given the meta. Seeing your arguments for A&H, I'd likely drop that manhunter and Gorman to include them. That would change my Reinforcements to be:
Kayazy Eliminators 3
Yuri 3
2x Manhunter 4

Best of luck! Hope you keep representing the Motherland with increasingly good results!

[@Kriegsspiele]

Saxon Orrik is a must.

Was a hard learning... but you're right. He's not only a consideration. He's indeed a must.

The second unit of Eliminators not so much. I find that if they are what's going to get the job done for you, it only takes the one unit. However, they're great as reinforcements when paired with Yuri&Friends.

Very interesting consideration: 1 in the army, 1 as a reinforcement.

I absolutely love my Uhlans and I get a wonderful kick out of running them. But I don't quite feel they're worth the 11 points in the tournament scene.

Well, that's a very long story: I started Warmachine with the 19p eVlad T4. Since then I hardly played a game without them (at least one small unit). I love them with eVlad, pVlad, Butcher, Strakhov. And I'll never understand why so many say their Uhlans "get stuck"? It's simply not true: Charge (for the right objective), lose 1/2/3, RBA back, charge again. It's such a wonderful unit for claiming terrain, scrapping jacks/beasts, assassinate the caster... whatever. And I simply can't wait for my first game with lVlad. - The Uhlans have never let me down, so...

Marauder (7) It's one our best Warjacks. Under Assail it's just plain silly. Charge 9" deliver a combo slam for a P+S20 Slam for d6+2"! Wow!

I've to admit that I've never played a Marauder. I probably have to take a 2nd look at it.

eEiryss (3) many players say she's a cop-out, and she isn't always necessary to be sure, but TBH, that ONE TIME you have to remove a crucial upkeep from your own guys, you'll be counting your blessings that you've got her.

Not sure for the current meta. But Colossals might make her a must.

Doom Reavers (6) they're a great help as an early distraction and to soak up some early threat. In the off chance that one survives until your feat turn... Hilarious.

Don't really like them. I know, taste shouldn't be part of a tournament-list-consideration, but well. I'm playing Fenris, that's it.

Gorman 2

How do you use him with eVlad?

Best of luck! Hope you keep representing the Motherland with increasingly good results!

Doing my best and ditto!

[quotemyname]

Dude if the Uhlans work for you, more power to you. I just know that in my meta there's a lot of Cygnar. Most of the time my Uhlans get decimated turn one. Same thing goes for my Doom Reavers, but I'm paying 5 less points for them...

That said, My Uhlans tend to get stuck a lot more than I'd like. The problem is that their RBA attacks never kill or knock down what I need them to, and my ponies all die to free strikes on the way out. Indeed Vlad3 has my heart all a-flutter these days :P

Personal taste should always be a part of this game. That's what makes it fun!

Careful with eEiryss... I'm not sure Colossals can be disrupted... But if you stick her within 5", it may give you a breather for a turn, if you can handle sacrificing her :P

Gorman. I use him off and on. Early smoke clouds for Vlad against shooty lists, and later game to black oil a caster, or possibly a heavy I can't quite tango with yet until I can get a warjack over there, or something. Def 14 and stealth makes him great for sitting on the back of a zone if necessary as well

But seriously. The Marauder. Any list that runs that thing just gets my rocks off. It's so good! What's that? You're heavy's in a zone? You didn't think my jack-without-open-fists could do anything to you? Peace! *Slamed* Pop a focus on it to boost the attack roll, just to be sure

[@Kriegsspiele]

Dude if the Uhlans work for you, more power to you. I just know that in my meta there's a lot of Cygnar. Most of the time my Uhlans get decimated turn one. Same thing goes for my Doom Reavers, but I'm paying 5 less points for them...

Mine are on the flanks mostly. How do you get shot in turn one!? Are you playing 3/5?

That said, My Uhlans tend to get stuck a lot more than I'd like. The problem is that their RBA attacks never kill or knock down what I need them to, and my ponies all die to free strikes on the way out. Indeed Vlad3 has my heart all a-flutter these days :P

With eVlad (Transference, HoF) and pVlad (S&P) I'm usually getting them out again. pButcher and Strakhov are a different kind of story.

Personal taste should always be a part of this game. That's what makes it fun!

Indeed. But most players have a very different view when it comes to tournaments. Possibly that's the reason for all those copycat lists.

Careful with eEiryss... I'm not sure Colossals can be disrupted...

Why not?

Gorman. I use him off and on. Early smoke clouds for Vlad against shooty lists, and later game to black oil a caster, or possibly a heavy I can't quite tango with yet until I can get a warjack over there, or something. Def 14 and stealth makes him great for sitting on the back of a zone if necessary as well

The time when my Vlad truly occurs on the battlefield, there's nobody left who could shoot him.

But seriously. The Marauder. Any list that runs that thing just gets my rocks off. It's so good! What's that? You're heavy's in a zone? You didn't think my jack-without-open-fists could do anything to you? Peace! *Slamed* Pop a focus on it to boost the attack roll, just to be sure

I'm using Devastator/Spriggan therefore. What makes Marauder standing out?

[Marth]

There's a number of reasons... first is his cheapness (7 points). Second is the overall increase through Assail (hardly any focus need - why run 8" when you can trample 9" for free, +2" distance for models slammed adds itself to the combo-smite for 3+d6"), third is the power of the combo-smite (it's a slam that can be angled for maximum effectiveness since you charge regularly, which also causes its damage roll to be boosted, and if the victim hits something solid, you're rolling P&S 20+4d6). Three-and-a-half is the bad rep it gets. People used to the razor edge builds will, depending on the seriousness of their mindset towards wargaming, disregard him. And that, plus the galore of other threats you have at hand in this list, will keep him safe long enough.

@quote: Thanks for sharing on the Eliminators & Saxon. Since I'm trying to get an Vlad Xp list to work for a tourney myself, the insight is appreciated.

[@Kriegsspiele]

There's a number of reasons...

Bought it. Will have to give him a try.

Thanks for sharing on the Eliminators & Saxon. Since I'm trying to get an Vlad Xp list to work for a tourney myself, the insight is appreciated.

The Eliminators are a great unit. But under eVlads feat? Everything gets better - but the Eliminators live up to their name!

I've charged and killed casters, solos, and even jacks/beasts with them: Most opponents still ignore (don't know?) their permanent acrobatics and their two attacks or combo strike.

And even if you don't go for an assassination: simply advance 20'' (once again through all intervening models!) and engage anything with DEF 20 (!).

[The Buoyancy of Water]

And even if you don't go for an assassination: simply advance 20'' (once again through all intervening models!) and engage anything with DEF 20 (!).

Just wanted to chime in that this is a very good way to use his feat. Doom reavers also work well, running 18" across the board with reach before forcing abomination checks on everything. Can make it very easy for the rest of your army to grab control points and such straight away. With the UA they can be tough DEF16 ARM17 troops right in your opponents face.

Actually, some quick maths! If you go first (7" deploy) and advance deploy them (13" up the board), then feat first turn (SPD9) before running them 18" (31" up the board). You also have reach (engaging models 33" away from your back table edge) and force abomination checks 34" from your table edge. You can easily engage enemy advance deploy stuff. It'll be very easy for the rest of your army to rush up unhurt while the opponent tries to clear out those doom reavers

Won't work against every caster, but worth bearing in mind!

Cheers,
Dave

[@Kriegsspiele]

I think the difference between Eliminators and Reavers is not only acrobatics:

With the UA they can be tough DEF16 ARM17 troops right in your opponents face.

Most casters can handle DEF16, ARM17. But most casters simply can't handle DEF20: with boosted attack dice they usually come to 8+10.5=18.5 on average. Only AOEs or teleportation really help against one or even two pairs of Eliminators.

It'll be very easy for the rest of your army to rush up unhurt while the opponent tries to clear out those doom reavers

Indeed, that's what I really like about this tactic. Especially if you've got your regular Assassins (with their feat) or a second pair of Eliminators at hand.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

Oh yeah, eliminators would be a better bet for a later on feat target for gummage duty. I was just kind of thinking aloud about a turn one feat, and it looks like doom reavers would be better. Advance deploy allows you to get further into the enemy lines first turn than the eliminators. From turn two onwards, eliminators are probably the better choice, depending on what your feating for.

Another thought: man hunters could be another good option for a first turn feat target? Same distance as the doom reavers, but lacking reach and abomination. One more DEF though, making them DEF17 ARM17...

Cheers,
Dave

[@Kriegsspiele]

I was just kind of thinking aloud about a turn one feat, and it looks like doom reavers would be better. Advance deploy allows you to get further into the enemy lines first turn than the eliminators. From turn two onwards, eliminators are probably the better choice, depending on what your feating for.

Sorry, skipped the "turn one" part. If you find a path to the caster (or any other objective) the Reavers will indeed do a better job then.

Another thought: man hunters could be another good option for a first turn feat target? Same distance as the doom reavers, but lacking reach and abomination. One more DEF though, making them DEF17 ARM17...

Good point.

Btw: At the beginning I usually feated in turn 2 or 3 (latest). Today I'm keeping the feat up to turn 3, 4 or even 5 typically. The threat of eVlad's feat if there are Uhlans/Fenris (16'') or Drakuhn (15'') keeps most opponents on distance for a very long time, giving me room to find an optimal position for most (slower) units.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

I'm the same with when I feat with eVlad nowadays. To start it was normally turn 2, now I look at turn 3-4 most of the time. Though when someone runs Nightmare and a bone chicken into reach of doom reavers in their first turn, they have it coming However I think I might investigate the turn one feat on doom reavers a bit more to see how it goes. Got a SR at the end of the month, so should get a practice game or two in before then and will hopefully try it out. If going first, I'm not expecting to get any charges up, just run them into the opponents army before its even moved and let them worry about them. Hand for scenarios with killbox and the like too.

Just thinking, if you go second, the reavers can charge something about 30" from your back table edge in the first turn. Worth remembering

Cheers,
Dave

[quotemyname]

Turn 1 doom reavers almost never works out I want my feat dealing some damage! (THEN leaving the reavers stuck in to gum things up). Not to just be an annoyance.

Holding eVlad's feat until late game is nice. But you shouldn't wait too long. You'll run out of infantry :P

[@Kriegsspiele]

I'm the same with when I feat with eVlad nowadays. To start it was normally turn 2, now I look at turn 3-4 most of the time.

Holding eVlad's feat until late game is nice. But you shouldn't wait too long. You'll run out of infantry :P

Are you going for attrition or assassination with eVlad mainly? I found myself moving from the first to the latter lately because of the effectivity of the Eliminators.

Though when someone runs Nightmare and a bone chicken into reach of doom reavers in their first turn, they have it coming However I think I might investigate the turn one feat on doom reavers a bit more to see how it goes.

Turn 1 doom reavers almost never works out I want my feat dealing some damage! (THEN leaving the reavers stuck in to gum things up). Not to just be an annoyance.

The only caster with whom I'm sometimes (about 1:4) feating on turn 1 is pVlad: Strakhov teached me a lot about feating as late as possible and changed my behaviour with other casters as well. But moving all your Berserkers to the middle line on turn one is such a great ability.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

Feating first turn with Old Witch can work nicely if you go second Teleport up to Scrappy (who has run into a forest) then feat far up the board to stop most of the enemy army coming towards you. Makes grabbing the control points on your second turn far easier and you can score CPs because of this. If you need clouds for stealth, the ternion can put following clouds up too

Shame about the doom reavers not working out Twas just an idea. Will give it a shot anyway!

Cheers,
Dave

[hoya4life3381]

Are you going for attrition or assassination with eVlad mainly? I found myself moving from the first to the latter lately because of the effectivity of the Eliminators.

If you're playing the assassination gambit so strongly, then you certainly need Pathfinder to pull it off. Kayazy Assassins and Eliminators look amazing running through the street or flat ground but god forbid they hit a log or a hill When that happens, you're talking about AS LOW AS 4.5 or 5 inch charge ranges which is not good to be relying on. This is especially true because I prefer to run my Kayazy on the flanks to keep them away from the masses where they can have shots ricochet into them.

I think eVlad plays the assassination and attrition style equally and it just depends on what your opponent gives you. The other solo recommendation I would give you is to take epic Eiryss to remove key upkeeps that would hamper you from charging or doing overkill damage (basis for Vlad's playstyle). Things like Polarity Shield and DEF boosters can really put a damper on your style.

This is a core I would generally start with and tailor from here:

eVlad
Drago
Sylas
Black Dragon IFP - UA (mainly because of Precision strike and fearless)
Kayazy + Boss
2x Eliminators
Saxon Orrick
Epic Eiryss
Total: 41/55

Lots of wiggle room here to take what you want. The main consideration would be a unit that would be perfect to receive Hands of Fate with. IFP, Kayazy, Eliminators, and Drago all don't need it. Uhlans can definitely use HOF to boost their impact attacks (always MAT 6 which is crappy) so that they aren't blocked off as easily. Another model that would be perfect to get HOF in such a eVlad army would be a Gun Carriage which would have both AOE 4 shots affected and give you potentially a ton of anti-infantry and some board control.

The Gun Carriage or some other heavy models is also really critical to protect Drago from shooting. Drago's low ARM and lower box count means the jack hates facing any army that has high pow shooting. While Drago can be thought of as a throw-away jack in an all-infantry force, there are often situations that only a jack would excel in and having you're only one be easily killable is sometimes a real bummer.
While I understand Uhlans would sort of take away the attention from Drago, those are very expensive models to be losing potentially 2-3 a turn with against a decent shooting army.

So with leftover 14, I would go with Gun Carriage and MOW Drakhun w/Dismount. Both of these models are quite beefy relatively in terms of surviveability, yet pack one of the most critical things which is speed.

[@Kriegsspiele]

Feating first turn with Old Witch can work nicely if you go second Teleport up to Scrappy (who has run into a forest) then feat far up the board to stop most of the enemy army coming towards you. Makes grabbing the control points on your second turn far easier and you can score CPs because of this. If you need clouds for stealth, the ternion can put following clouds up too

Sounds great. Old Witch might become one of my next casters. What about her Tier? Is it worth it? All those Woodsmen seem daunting?

If you're playing the assassination gambit so strongly, then you certainly need Pathfinder to pull it off. Kayazy Assassins and Eliminators look amazing running through the street or flat ground but god forbid they hit a log or a hill

Well, I'm mostly going for the scenario and/or attrition (at least: first). I just recognised that I've won many games by assassination lately because of the Eliminators ... and slightly switching to this overall strategy more and more. Until now I could mostly manage to position all of the Kayazy in a way not desperately needing Orrik. But at 50p he's indeed a must.

This is especially true because I prefer to run my Kayazy on the flanks to keep them away from the masses where they can have shots ricochet into them.

I'm doing the opposite: My Kayazys, IFPs, and Drago are in the center, my IFUs and other cavalry on the flanks. I'm usually running my Kayazy into close combat (losing 2-4) and give them HoF + support via Transference in the following turn or charge even further with their minifeat while the IFPs and Drago (and IFUs if necessary) clear the rest (that's especially true for mass infantry, aka Cryx).

I think eVlad plays the assassination and attrition style equally and it just depends on what your opponent gives you.

I think so. It's not been my playstyle until now. But it's changed since I'm running the Eliminators.

The other solo recommendation I would give you is to take epic Eiryss to remove key upkeeps that would hamper you from charging or doing overkill damage (basis for Vlad's playstyle). Things like Polarity Shield and DEF boosters can really put a damper on your style.

I'm not sure why, but I've never warmed up with pEiryss and eEiryss. Probably I'm doing her wrong, simply playing her wrong? What are your primary goals for her?

Black Dragon IFP - UA (mainly because of Precision strike and fearless)

Proxed them but still prefer the regular IFP because of their minifeat: If I'm not running with the Kayazy (see above) I'm charging and moving +6 with the IFPs very often (= 15'' + Shield Wall in total), position everything else behind them and get a terrible strike the next turn while 4-8 IFPs are still around. I know that it's an expensive tactic but: 1. a lot of opponents feel overwhelmed (leading to positioning mistakes) and 2. it's the best way to get Drago and everyone else in charge position.

Lots of wiggle room here to take what you want. The main consideration would be a unit that would be perfect to receive Hands of Fate with. IFP, Kayazy, Eliminators, and Drago all don't need it. Uhlans can definitely use HOF to boost their impact attacks (always MAT 6 which is crappy) so that they aren't blocked off as easily. Another model that would be perfect to get HOF in such a eVlad army would be a Gun Carriage which would have both AOE 4 shots affected and give you potentially a ton of anti-infantry and some board control.

It's great to see how differently one can play eVlad.

My IFPs and/or Kayazys need HoF and Transference badly because of my run-into-combat tactic: One of the units runs, one of them charges later on (depending on the opponent's first line and other units).

The Gun Carriage is indeed a very interesting option: Thought about it very often but always found something more interesting to add. Another Drakhun lately for lVlad's T4 for example. But lVlad wants to have a Gun Carriage sooner or later I suppose.

While I understand Uhlans would sort of take away the attention from Drago, those are very expensive models to be losing potentially 2-3 a turn with against a decent shooting army.

Sadly true. Only Strakhov can really help the Uhlans here.

[quotemyname]

This is a core I would generally start with and tailor from here:

eVlad
Drago
Sylas
Black Dragon IFP - UA (mainly because of Precision strike and fearless)
Kayazy + Boss
2x Eliminators
Saxon Orrick
Epic Eiryss
Total: 41/55

So with leftover 14, I would go with Gun Carriage and MOW Drakhun w/Dismount. Both of these models are quite beefy relatively in terms of surviveability, yet pack one of the most critical things which is speed.

This is indeed a good starting point. Though I find with 50 points, you usually want 2 warjacks. Not to actually use them for anything, but to distract your opponent into killing them, so your more lethal infantry can do whatever it wants. I'm not sure about the GC, it's a point of pride for me that when my opponent asks what my shooting is like in my vlad lists, I laugh and tell them that they are very funny. The only things I run with anything that resembles a gun is Saxon Orrick, and sometimes eEiryss. The MoW MLP however is amazing. I bought him last month, he's been in every game I've played since!

Sounds great. Old Witch might become one of my next casters. What about her Tier? Is it worth it? All those Woodsmen seem daunting?

No. Never. Kossites are the worst unit we have. They are the inverse of Doom Reavers. Running more of them is never a good idea. I desperately want to like this unit because Ambush is the ****. However, they are worthless. I ran them in a 100 point game not too long ago. A full unit of them couldn't even handle the mechanithralls I'd ambushed. It was so depressing. But generally speaking, OW becomes a warjack 'caster with her tier list depressingly enough. I've run it once at 50 points. It was interesting, but I probably wouldn't do it again if I had the choice.

I'm not sure why, but I've never warmed up with pEiryss and eEiryss. Probably I'm doing her wrong, simply playing her wrong? What are your primary goals for her?

Usually same as Saxxon Orrick. Advance deploy in your own back field usually near the center of the board. Especially if your opponent has ATGM (blue bastards! *Fist shake*). Use her to shoot your own troops in the back and peel of bad upkeeps like crippling grasp. Then when the time comes, you advance her up through your lines, and pop an upkeep off one of their models or units. I feel like she rarely earns her points with me, but for those times that she does... it's game changing.

Proxed them but still prefer the regular IFP because of their minifeat: If I'm not running with the Kayazy (see above) I'm charging and moving +6 with the IFPs very often (= 15'' + Shield Wall in total), position everything else behind them and get a terrible strike the next turn while 4-8 IFPs are still around. I know that it's an expensive tactic but: 1. a lot of opponents feel overwhelmed (leading to positioning mistakes) and 2. it's the best way to get Drago and everyone else in charge position.

You're right here. Original IFP are the way to go. minifeat + eVlad's feat have literally singlehandedly won me games. Allowing 12" charges, murder, and then another 9 inch advance is nuts. Especially when you park them PAST a zone and your opponent has to get through the whole unit just to contest. Laugh heartily when that goes badly for them!

It's great to see how differently one can play eVlad.

IMO Best 'Caster we've got (based heavily on my affinity for his play style, not his stats, mind you).

[@Kriegsspiele]

Though I find with 50 points, you usually want 2 warjacks. Not to actually use them for anything, but to distract your opponent into killing them, so your more lethal infantry can do whatever it wants.

Not sure about it: played most games at 35 and 42 points until now, but couldn't resist to simply add more and more of our great units at 50 points. Colossals might change this, but in my opinion eVlad can't have enough regular infantry for feat + HoF + Transference.

No. Never. Kossites are the worst unit we have. They are the inverse of Doom Reavers. Running more of them is never a good idea. I desperately want to like this unit because Ambush is the ****. However, they are worthless.

I love tier lists, but the Kossites look really bad. Will still give her a try. Scrapjack + teleportation looks too good to me.

Usually same as Saxxon Orrick. Advance deploy in your own back field usually near the center of the board. Especially if your opponent has ATGM (blue bastards! *Fist shake*). Use her to shoot your own troops in the back and peel of bad upkeeps like crippling grasp. Then when the time comes, you advance her up through your lines, and pop an upkeep off one of their models or units. I feel like she rarely earns her points with me, but for those times that she does... it's game changing.

Will give her another try later on. Probably it's my local meta that makes her pretty useless: very few Cygnar and Menoth around.

IMO Best 'Caster we've got (based heavily on my affinity for his play style, not his stats, mind you).

Absolutely with you! He's got the best package to skilfully boost all of our units. And it's not just the feat. HoF and Transference in particular are simply a perfect match for anything Khador has to offer. And although I haven't played lVlad yet, I'm pretty sure this won't change. Dash is great (especially for my beloved Uhlans ) but the opposite is that he's missing Transference to boost damage if necessary. Well, time will tell...

[quotemyname]

Not sure about it: played most games at 35 and 42 points until now, but couldn't resist to simply add more and more of our great units at 50 points. Colossals might change this, but in my opinion eVlad can't have enough regular infantry for feat + HoF + Transference.

You really do need a balance, though. Unless you're some kind of wizard, there's no way you can effectively run that much infantry in the 2012 SR timing. I've practiced my eVlad list ad nauseum, and I can barely manage it. Andding MORE units would slow things down even more. Though, admittedly, I'm still losing like a whole minute just trying to fit my IFP base to base hahaha.

I love tier lists, but the Kossites look really bad. Will still give her a try. Scrapjack + teleportation looks too good to me.

Tier lists are awesome. Except for Strakhovs, and Zerkova's, and pVlad, and Karchev, and and and and and :P. Unseen Path is the most fun part about OW. Turn 1 Run Scrappy, then Unseen Path to a forest uphill. Turn 2, Upkeep Avatar on Scrappy, Assign 4 focus to Scrappy, Jack-Bullet him at some infantry, Advance OW Rubber Band him to cover her, Feat in the middle of the field, Cackle with delight.

Will give her another try later on. Probably it's my local meta that makes her pretty useless: very few Cygnar and Menoth around.

She's also really good against Hordes as she can pull off Animi like Spiny Growth or Tenacity.

Absolutely with you! He's got the best package to skilfully boost all of our units. And it's not just the feat. HoF and Transference in particular are simply a perfect match for anything Khador has to offer. And although I haven't played lVlad yet, I'm pretty sure this won't change. Dash is great (especially for my beloved Uhlans ) but the opposite is that he's missing Transference to boost damage if necessary. Well, time will tell...

I'm hoping that being able to withdraw 11" after a charge attack will help that (2" Sidestep + 9" sprint under Dash). It'll give you another charge attack next turn, so you wouldn't need transferring anyway. I'd plan on impacting some infantry and leveling the lance at a hard target like a 'Jack that's hiding behind the squishy dudes on the front lines. Nice part is that if your impact kills an infantry dude, and your charge fails, you can still sprint because it happens at the end of your activation (At least I think that's how it works).

[@Kriegsspiele]

You really do need a balance, though. Unless you're some kind of wizard, there's no way you can effectively run that much infantry in the 2012 SR timing. I've practiced my eVlad list ad nauseum, and I can barely manage it. Andding MORE units would slow things down even more. Though, admittedly, I'm still losing like a whole minute just trying to fit my IFP base to base hahaha.

I've been very worried about the timing 2 weeks ago: But the tournament asked for game- not round-timing fortunately and offered 65 minutes per player. That's been a lot of time - too much to be serious! All of my 5 games took less than 100 minutes - in total! I'm pretty sure that 45 minutes per player would have been fine as well (and would have put some pressure on some of my opponents). I'm not sure if I would have run out of time with the above list in an round-based environment? I probably would have, especially in the feat-turn.

Tier lists are awesome. Except for Strakhovs, and Zerkova's, and pVlad, and Karchev, and and and and and :P.

I can't judge Zerkova's and Karchev's, but pVlad's T4 with 3 Berserkers and Drago (at 42p or at 50p adding 3 additional Uhlans) is simply great and lots of fun, too: 9 magical sprays do really hurt any Cryx or other infantry lists, getting your IFPs far across the midline in turn 1 is lovely as well, but the best are those Serkers who start advanced. You're still right: at 35 (smallest possible) it's pointless as you're not hitting hard enough against any jack-/beast-lists.

I'm hoping that being able to withdraw 11" after a charge attack will help that (2" Sidestep + 9" sprint under Dash). It'll give you another charge attack next turn, so you wouldn't need transferring anyway. I'd plan on impacting some infantry and leveling the lance at a hard target like a 'Jack that's hiding behind the squishy dudes on the front lines. Nice part is that if your impact kills an infantry dude, and your charge fails, you can still sprint because it happens at the end of your activation (At least I think that's how it works).

My plan is to run lVlad's T4 for a long time during the next months. I simply love cavalry and this will be my starting point at 35p:

lVlad
- Drago
- War Dog
Fenris
2x MOW Drakhun w/o
Markov
2x Uhlans (min)

Adding more Uhlans and/or a non-expensive jack at 42/50p.

2 Drakhuns look huge: as a counter-striking body guard for lVlad and a massive hammer against jacks. Fenris under feat might become the best assassinator Khador has ever run. And even lVlad could become a disastrous threat for units and casters. And the Uhlans? The Uhlans with Dash are already unbelievably good: but with lVlad's feat they get even harder: 1. alpha strike with feat and Dash, 2. certain alpha strike with Dash, 3. alpha strike (with some lost models, just the above eVlad-way, but thanks to Dash in 2.: a lot safer this time).

[quotemyname]

I've been very worried about the timing 2 weeks ago: But the tournament asked for game- not round-timing fortunately and offered 65 minutes per player. That's been a lot of time - too much to be serious! All of my 5 games took less than 100 minutes - in total! I'm pretty sure that 45 minutes per player would have been fine as well (and would have put some pressure on some of my opponents). I'm not sure if I would have run out of time with the above list in an round-based environment? I probably would have, especially in the feat-turn.

I believe what you're playing is what's called "Chess Clock" and if Dice Down are never called, then it's "Deathclock". They're variations on standard Steamroller timing. Deathclock has been regarded by many in at least my local meta as 'the only way to play'. And I agree. The timing keeps you honest, without being overly restrictive on any given turn.

I can't judge Zerkova's and Karchev's, but pVlad's T4 with 3 Berserkers and Drago (at 42p or at 50p adding 3 additional Uhlans) is simply great and lots of fun, too: 9 magical sprays do really hurt any Cryx or other infantry lists, getting your IFPs far across the midline in turn 1 is lovely as well, but the best are those Serkers who start advanced. You're still right: at 35 (smallest possible) it's pointless as you're not hitting hard enough against any jack-/beast-lists.

The bottom line is that most of the theme lists I mention don't shine anywhere near as brightly as say, "Blood of Heroes".

My plan is to run lVlad's T4 for a long time during the next months. I simply love cavalry and this will be my starting point at 35p:

lVlad
- Drago
- War Dog
Fenris
2x MOW Drakhun w/o
Markov
2x Uhlans (min)

Adding more Uhlans and/or a non-expensive jack at 42/50p.

2 Drakhuns look huge: as a counter-striking body guard for lVlad and a massive hammer against jacks. Fenris under feat might become the best assassinator Khador has ever run. And even lVlad could become a disastrous threat for units and casters. And the Uhlans? The Uhlans with Dash are already unbelievably good: but with lVlad's feat they get even harder: 1. alpha strike with feat and Dash, 2. certain alpha strike with Dash, 3. alpha strike (with some lost models, just the above eVlad-way, but thanks to Dash in 2.: a lot safer this time).

It looks like a good list, but I think you need to do some shuffling. What you've got there is a T4 list, and because that gives you a discount on Warjacks... you should probably consider the Dismounts for the MoW Ponies. See here:

Tier 1: Those models only - +1 FA of non-character cavalry solos, units, and battle engines
Tier 2: 2+ Cavalry units: +2 SPD to warjacks first turn
Tier 3: 2+ Cavalry solos: +1 to starting roll
Tier 4: Include Drago: -1 PC to warjacks

You're actually running 34 points. I'd even go as far as dropping the War Dog, and use both MoW Drakhun dismounts. Though, I'm not sure how good it will be in practice. I need to see it in practice before I figure out how badly he's going to need that War Dog. I sure wish he was steady I lose more games to my War Caster getting KD. Though, with Blood Quenched, he has a better chance of surviving if he's just spend a turn killing some dudes.

[@Kriegsspiele]

I believe what you're playing is what's called "Chess Clock" and if Dice Down are never called, then it's "Deathclock". They're variations on standard Steamroller timing. Deathclock has been regarded by many in at least my local meta as 'the only way to play'. And I agree. The timing keeps you honest, without being overly restrictive on any given turn.

Dice down would have been called (at the end of the players total game time), but it's not been needed - for nobody. 65 minutes have been too much time for 50p (although we've played +10p reinforcements in 2 out of 5 games). - Personally I don't mind if it's a game- or turn-based timing. Some tournaments use the first, some the latter. Game-based seems to be just a small advantage for lots of infantry units. The pro: you can make your 2nd and 3rd turn pretty relaxed (even if you're feating).

The bottom line is that most of the theme lists I mention don't shine anywhere near as brightly as say, "Blood of Heroes".

True. At least the others don't make so much fun. BoH isn't truly competitive as well, but it's a lot of fun. Hopefully lVlad's T4 will become even more interesting: faster and with more manoeuvres. I'm really missing the IFPs, but on the other hand: 7 isn't 9.

It looks like a good list, but I think you need to do some shuffling. What you've got there is a T4 list, and because that gives you a discount on Warjacks... you should probably consider the Dismounts for the MoW Ponies. See here: You're actually running 34 points.

Nice, skipped the saving. It'll make it easier to add another warjack when moving up to 42 and 50 points. Btw: could B09 become a reinforcement then? Thought about Spriggan earlier.

I'd even go as far as dropping the War Dog, and use both MoW Drakhun dismounts. Though, I'm not sure how good it will be in practice. I need to see it in practice before I figure out how badly he's going to need that War Dog. I sure wish he was steady I lose more games to my War Caster getting KD. Though, with Blood Quenched, he has a better chance of surviving if he's just spend a turn killing some dudes.

I'm not sure about dismounts in general: My learning with Fenris is: it never really helped. Usually the dismount was killed with the initial attack or one round later. Or to abstract: if you can kill the mounted Fenris, you'll surly kill the unmounted Fenris as well. I guess it'll be the same with the Drakuhns. In about 1 of 4 games you win some time, but mostly you win nothing.

Anyway: It's nice to have one Drakhun mounted though. And even better, it's another point (points) when adding another warjack:

lVlad (35p)
- Drago
- War Dog
Fenris
1x MOW Drakhun w/
1x MOW Drakhun w/o
Markov
2x Uhlans (min)

lVlad (42p)
- Drago
- War Dog
Fenris
2x MOW Drakhun w/o
Markov
2x Uhlans (max; or min + jack)

lVlad (50p)
- Drago
- X
- War Dog
Fenris
2x MOW Drakhun w/o
Markov
2x Uhlans (max)

The 2nd warjack could cost 9 points or even 1o when expulsing the war dog. Nice! That's offering a wide range of jacks, including Spriggan who'd visually fit best: We want more lances!

Anyway: I'm pretty sure it's going to be a lot of fun and I'm really looking forward to get lVlad finally.

[Gothgar]

^

Eh... 3Vlad only has one jack speed buff... another melee jack will get left in the dust... and our ranged options at that point level are less than desirable.

I'd rather the extra Uhlans

[@Kriegsspiele]

^Eh... 3Vlad only has one jack speed buff... another melee jack will get left in the dust... and our ranged options at that point level are less than desirable.

I'd rather the extra Uhlans

You're probably right. I'll start with the 35p anyway and will move on when I'm sure about lVlads' true needs later on.

[quotemyname]

I wrote a really long post the other day, but my browser decided to eat it I guess, since it's clearly not here.

I'll summarize since I don't really remember what I wrote:

Basically, you might want to re-read Dragoon rules. It seems like you think you can kill both the mount and the rider in one shot. Incorrect. If you deal 10 damage to a MoW Drakhun while it's still mounted (even if it only has 1 health remaining), he gets dismounted and any left over incoming damage gets reduced to zero. Also, the new smaller base has to be placed completely within the area that the large base encompassed. That allows for the possibility of having the MoW slide out of melee range of the previous attacker if his base was 'just within their melee range' you can slide him back about half an inch and now the dismount won't die.

The REAL strength of dismount models like this is Scenario play. It forces your opponent to put just that much extra into killing it or getting it out of a zone.

I like your 35 point list. But I'd at least consider trying running without the War Dog and using the second dismount at some point even if just as an experiment. You might like it.

For your 42 point list, I agree with Gothgar on this one. Take more ponies.

For your 50 point list, I might actually consider dropping the War Dog and going for:

lVlad (50p)
- Drago (7)
Gun Carriage (9)
Fenris (5)
2x MOW Drakhun w/o (8)
Markov (4)
2x Uhlans (max) (22)

[The Buoyancy of Water]

I like the idea of a kodiak as a second jack with Vlad3. Mainly for the chain attack + side step things you can pull. Charge a jack (or colossal) hit, side step, hit, side step into back arc, weapon lock

Just my thoughts anyway!

[quotemyname]

Brilliant!!!

You know, I'd been thinking about trying just about any warjack with a chain attack with him what with Infernal Machine and all. Berserker is what it is, with *Headbut, but face it, Drago would be simply mean in this case. Drago can Attack a 'jack, Side Step to the side of it, Attack again, Side step into the midst of a crowd of infantry, and unleash his Bloodbath. however, I think sending a Kodiak to weapon lock a Colossal or something would be hilarious. All and all Kodiak is a wonderful Warjack and I always love using it.

[@Kriegsspiele]

I wrote a really long post the other day, but my browser decided to eat it I guess, since it's clearly not here.

Had similar problems with the forum (I guess) lately. But luckily I just got a duplicate - not a loss.

Basically, you might want to re-read Dragoon rules. It seems like you think you can kill both the mount and the rider in one shot. Incorrect.

My post was misleading. "Initial attacks" vs. my Fenris mostly work like this: either he's shot or he's charged/engaged after my charge. The result is a dismounted Fenris who dies by a (different source's) shot (why I'm usually not leaving melee!) or another unit/solo in melee. And the truth is: I'm doing it the same way with Dragoons of my opponents. So yes:

The REAL strength of dismount models like this is Scenario play. It forces your opponent to put just that much extra into killing it or getting it out of a zone.

You might in some rare cases gain a small advantage, but regularly you're just loosing the dismount with the horse. But I might probably have to rethink this for the Drakhuns: their dismounts might survive a little bit longer. Fenris is tough, but tough isn't tough enough - DEF/ARM rules. At least it should take more extra power to take down both versions in one turn what could be interesting for scenarios (not for that one attack of the dismount).

I like your 35 point list. But I'd at least consider trying running without the War Dog and using the second dismount at some point even if just as an experiment. You might like it.

I'll test it. My idea is to start with the smallest and broadest T4 selection that's possible to get a feeling for its chances. I'm taking this route with every new caster/list in general: If a (Khador!) core selection works widely solid at 35p it will mostly work as solid at 42p or 50p - regularly better to be serious. 35p is played faster, so I'm getting more games against more different factions than at 42/50p.

Gun Carriage (9)

I don't own one. I simply don't like the idea of carrying it arround. - But lVlad might change this attitude.

Btw: Are there any new rumours - or even facts! - about those "Greylord Outriders"? I'm really looking forward to see more cavalry choice for Khador. 8'' spraying light cavalry with some new magical buffs might be super interesting not only for lVlad.

I like the idea of a kodiak as a second jack with Vlad3. Mainly for the chain attack + side step things you can pull. Charge a jack (or colossal) hit, side step, hit, side step into back arc, weapon lock

Lovely idea! Running for free with Pathfinder is just an additional pro with lVlad!

[The Buoyancy of Water]

To add to the Drago movement:

You could trigger his imprint, hit, side step out of melee, run riot back into melee with the original target (to get three inches of movement instead of two), hit the first target again, side step out of melee, run riot into your real target, bloodbath against the new target, buy two extra attacks, then maybe blow up in their face too!!

Cheers,
Dave

[@Kriegsspiele]

To add to the Drago movement: You could trigger his imprint, hit, side step out of melee, run riot back into melee with the original target (to get three inches of movement instead of two), hit the first target again, side step out of melee, run riot into your real target, bloodbath against the new target, buy two extra attacks, then maybe blow up in their face too!!

Just as lovely. Drago is (at the beginning) an auto include for me. Drago + Kodiak might become a pretty nice combo.