pKrueger... somebody explain

[Phatheadaf]

So to my fellow Druids...

I have begun to play pKrueger, and to give you a bit of background, I'm a reasonably accomplished player, with several tourney wins in the surrounding states in the region I live, as well as a handful of league coins from my LGS; and typically only work on three warlocks at a time. I was starting with the expectation of making him my "main" warlock by the Gargantuan release. I have never really dabbled in him in the past, but have faced him enough times, usually to success (in mirror matches).

That being said, I'm asking for help on what successful players have done using him in the past. My 'list' per se doesn't matter, as I'm open to ideas. The conversation I'm looking for is more general concepts. I have read the tactica, and I have applied the basic knowledge. My problem is his infantry clearing abilities seem to only shine vs Cryx and Khador. Maybe that's why he's so popular? Because those two factions are highly competitive on the tourney scene. Outside of that, I don't see his success level being so great. ARM 15 and higher infantry greatly diminishes his plethora of POW 10s, which I'm finding is more abundant than I ever noticed previously. Chain Lightening is unreliable at best, and his feat also tends to expose him to assassination. I thought it would allow me to get to the "hard to reach" support pieces, but typically I can't, or the risk is not worth the reward. Moreover, when I 'need' to mow thru things on the feat turn, it makes him Fury starved, and again flapping in the breeze on an assassination run on the following turn.

In scenario play, I can see him walling things off an area, but in practical application against capable players, it's not the deterrent I had thought it would be. I understand the benefits, however, it seems that he's woefully under POW'd, and except for a few, albeit important, match ups he doesn't have the goods.

I consent that there is something that I'm missing, so I'm hoping this thread can shed some light on the subject. I have been winning some games in a competitive test bed, but it's more from my opponent being undone in a game that I was ultimately losing, by a quintessential late game Circle hail mary assassination run. However, in those cases it's more based on standard Circle fare, and nothing specific to pKruegs himself.

Please, please enlighten me.

A.

[Bradigus]

My thoughts on the Emperor Palpatine of Circle are as follows.

He offers little or no support for beasts. Stick with heavy hitters, and bring a Gorax to boost them up if they need hitting power.
Don't bother bringing a Woldwarden or Megalith with him, or possibly one at 50 points +. He doesn't need them. Bring at least 1 Gallows Grove.
He can hang pretty close to the front due to his DEF combined with his +2 DEF spell.
His biggest weakness is against entire armies with high ARM or armies built around multi-wound models/units. POW 10's just don't do much against an army at ARM 18+.

At 35, you can run him with just Heavies a Gorax and some support models for FURY support & beast support (stones, wilder and blackclad).
First choice for warrior models with him, after the Stones, are female Tharn. Bring at least 2 units of them at 50. With Bloodtrackers, Nuala is a must.

Lightning Tendrils + Bloodtrackers + Nuala = 12 charge threat, Electro Leaps, Quick Work ranged attacks and Reform to back off or move into the next threat.

Once 1 unit of female tharn are killed, move Lightning Tendrils over to the next and charge in again.

Against Hordes, I like to bring 2 units of Bloodweavers. With a 12 charge threat and the ability to get all 6 models in on a single heavy, you can kill heavies with infantry, kill infantry with Krueger's feat and kill casters with your warbeasts. That's a win recipe.

Lastly, although it may be tempting, there are not many casters that Krueger can kill, even with sustained attack. Keep him back far enough to keep him safe and keep your DEF high.

[Gobos]

well, I never build my lists with the idea that one would be 'main' - I always try to make two equal ones, just oriented towards handling different threats.

anyway, I plan to play more of pKruger again in few months especially because of my Khador-heavy meta. His infantry-clearing does well against RoS as well, Cygnar to some extent (if they don't take Stormblades, who have recently become quite popular here)
Anyway, I think Krueger's best spell is Lightning Tendrils, and I would build my list basing on models that can benefit from it.

what is good about Krueger, is that while he brings all the tools necassary to clear infantry, you can compose the rest of the army around cracking armor - for an all-comers list, I'd take at least two wolves with Gorax, plus Megalith because Megalith is great.

as for assassination exposure - in ideal situation, you should set up feat turn to advance into SS triangle, kill what you can and teleport back... easier said than done though. Maybe add Woldwatcher/Woldguardian to help with his survivability? Druids help as well with clouds and counter magic, and work nice for a more all-comers type list. I would be creating a more anti-spam list, so those points would probably be spent on Woldstalkers.

[Gobos]

double post.

[PG_LEJKaya]

I have to say his personal infantry clearing potential is the best there is. Even Nemo3 can't compete with what Krueger does on his own.
You can target the rear support dudes and for things like Choir and paingivers, yes you get close but then things like shifting stones and lightning strike (Sprint is easier to get off than you'd think) get you back to safety.

Chain lightning can fail you no doubt but basically its easy to get 2D6+2 hits per turn just from krueger. Use gallows groves. If you're rolling bad that doesn't mean the idea is wrong, just that you played it right and rolled badly.

Final thing, Krueger does infantry so you don't need any more of that, the rest of your list needs two things: Threat range and heavy killing power. I like to use a stalker and feral but I have also had Ghettorix. Either way take a Gorax.
I trade heavies and krueger kills infantry, overall I win because I have the last heavy standing and they have no infantry.

[Gobos]

putting Sprint on Krueger, that had not occured to me - thanks, LEJ! with Sky Borne that's 8" retreat, just needs the enemy to run one of his models close enough... will certainly try this out!

[AmonadRodrigues]

putting Sprint on Krueger, that had not occured to me - thanks, LEJ! with Sky Borne that's 8" retreat, just needs the enemy to run one of his models close enough... will certainly try this out!

Obviously a Wilder serves well for this tactic.

Bloodweavers! Tendrils are great in combination with gang and they are great against heavy infantry, which is a weaknes of pKrueger as you stated. Upkeepremoval is always nice.

[Warcaster Feiss]

As long as you've got a target for Lightning Tendrils (Bloodweavers and Gatormen are my favourites, though a Feral is a good choice too), then the only thing I find is near mandatory is double Stones.

As you've commented it's very easy to have Krueger swinging in the breeze, being able to walk / charge forward into something that's in a unit of Stones, then cast/channel spells and possibly Feat before being teleported back 9" (8" + 1" base size) is absolute gold and can make it fairly easy to keep him safe

[Blaque]

Wolfriders I find do really well with him too. A single Wolfrider can kill four models on her own. (Assault, kill that, stab with Reach spear, electro-leap, bite.) This is twenty total possible kills, not quite the Bloodtracker level, but with a much longer threat range, more flexible accuracy, and the ability tof ocus-fire 15 attacks on a single thing like an enemy heavy.

I'll second the idea of not taking too much Geomancy, but I do think one Woldwarden is worth trying. I find that I bounce Lightning Tendrils around a lot when I play Krueger, and having the Woldwarden cover that base helps a lot. I also think that Feral Warpwolves are your workhorse wtih him more than anything. You do well to have one, since those things with Reach have really good threat and the extra Electro-leaps to fry support doesn't hurt either.

And stuff.

[Feral Monkey]

I been playing pKrueger a lot at 35pts. The list I've arrived at is:
pKrueger
Stalker
Feral
Gorax
Gatormen
Druid Wilder
2 shifting stones
2 gallows grove


I play pKrueger close to the front, normally with Sky Bourne and in cover or behind a linear obstacle. From there he can control the field sniping solos and UA's with his gun, feat and lightning. I find he's a good match up vs anything except, more than one unit of high ARM mutli-wound infantry or 3 or more heavies.

His feat I use to fry units, area denial, to funnel a unit to fry with chain lightning, and I have killed caster with it (coven, deneghra, doomie etc).

Lightning tendrils on either the gators or the feral (often swap it between them). The gators can potentially take out 4 models each if you space them out.

A word on tornado. Fantastic spell. Throw any based size. K'D casters. A great way to remove a heavy for one turn, or clear a flag/zone.

[PG_fildrigar]

I've got a lot to say about this subject. Hopefully I can find some power in this blasted airport and can say it.

One thing for you to think about, though. He may become far less useful. Looking at the Colossals release, it seems that Infantrymachine is on the way out.

[null_sheen]

I have found that he works best for me when i use hard hitting fast pieces

Bloodweavers, Wolf Riders, Morraig, Warpwolf Stalker, Feral ect.
With some utility in Shifting Stones, Blackclad Wayfarer, Druids or Gators (for objectives), gallows

[VagrantPoet]

All great advice above. I've been playing him recently, though won't as I wasn't finding him a good pair up with Kromac.

I will reiterate the get into stones, feat and retreat. That's how you get the templates in the back ranks. Of course putting on the front lines as a road block is also very powerful.

[Phatheadaf]

First of all thanks for all the responses, I do appreciate the thoughts, and exchange. That said I want to make a few counter points...

The idea on the stones is viable, however, in my META if I advance my stones to the point where I could use them to Teleport myself backward, I'd likely lose a stone. I will qualify and say that in my META we have formed a competitive WarmaHordes team, so most players are savvy to the Stones tricks. As such they will trade pieces to take away that piece. As all of us know, that is an important trade to make.

I do like the idea of Lightening Strike on him; however, to combo that w/ Skyborn is excessive use of Fury, and probably not needed. The general concept of the Yo-Yo I think has merit, and I will incorporate it into my play.

I'm not entirely comfortable saying that he can "handle" infantry all by himself. Chain Lightening is far too unreliable. Typically you can only cast it once, unless you want to drain yourself dry. The idea of running your BCW up to ricochet a spell off of him seems like a poor use of a very good 2 point solo. The only way I see that working is if you use the stones to teleport him up into their grill ricochet off of him, then activate him to phase jump back. Not sure how many times you can go to that well. I don't buy into the idea of getting your Druids into someone's grill to ricochet off of them. If they are 'running' they can't do any of their regular tricks. That being said I'm not going to sacrifice a 7 or 9 point unit and 3 Fury to get a random d6 damage spell off.

I read that somebody doesn't feel he "needs" a Geomancer. He has one upkeep and 2-3 spells you really want to cast every turn, not including animi. I'd say a Geomancer is pertinent even at 35 points. Otherwise you are not tapping all of his potential. To effectively deal with infantry, you need two reliable chain lightenings, which requires a Geomancer. I don't think it's a prudent use of his feat, or even a worthwhile use of his feat to to simply eliminate the tarpit. I feel like he should be able to do that with Chain Lightening, and Lightening Tendrils. Then feat to get into the second layer of hiding support.

Speaking of heavy layer support, what do you guys do to get rid of multi wound support pieces that are between ARM 14-17, like Tartarus, Rhupert, Saxon, Strageways, Slaughterborn, Runewood, Joe, Vilman... etc. Boost and pray? Boosting should work in most cases, but now you are burning thru your fury like crazy. Again I understand the plan, but it doesn't feel like your playing to his strengths, and yet this is supposed to be something he EXCELS at. I'd rather use Kromac or Morvahna and it feels like they would be much more effective in the same capacity.

There are two schools of thought, maybe I'm trying to do too much with his spell list. I feel like he should be able to Chain Lightening plus one other spell, and camp one... OR never cast Chain Lightening, only use Deflection and Skyborn while up keeping Lightening Tendrils, then wait to pop the feat at the most opportune time? That doesn't seem like the best plan to blender infantry.

The more I read your responses it seems that your getting the most milage out of Lightening Tendrils. The issue I have with it is that it arcs to the nearest model. Often that is our own neighboring model, unless you have overly meticulous placing, which seems like more of a time wasting effort than anything else. Not saying that is always the case, but you know that many of those arcs go to waste.

I feel like I'm being argumentative at this point, and I don't want it to read that way. It's frustration more than anything else. To reiterate I am having some success with him, and maybe my expectations were just too high. I really thought infantry would be a near non issue, and that was what made him such a strong Warlock. I'm using the same tricks I use w/ every other Warlock, and the only difference, he doesn't help with the heavy lifting on the other stuff.

After reading the threads, it seems that other players are using some manner to get him out of dodge after he feats, either Stones or Lightening Strike. Which means I have to put in a Stalker in his list, as I feel that is more reliable, and currently I didn't not have a Stalker in his list. Secondarily I may be over using Chain Lightening. Based on your responses, not using a Geomancer, perhaps it's just not something you are looking to a lot 3-4 Fury for a turn. Maybe the spell rotation is Deflection and Skyborne while up keeping Lightening Tendrils and camping two. He's DEF 17 ARM 16, and can get in tighter, w/ Druids? DEF 19 vs Ranged and Magic (if you find a way to target him). Then let your force do the work, until you can feat and run. Chain Lightening is only an option when your opponent can't reliably shoot him? Save the Geomancer for 50 to games and that's when Chain Lightening becomes more viable?

Is that the more realistic road map?

A.

[Bradigus]

Lets break things down this way.

At 35 points:
No Geomancer needed.
His feat should clear most of the enemy infantry since you'll see 1 or 2 units at most except in extreme infantry machine lists.
Go beast heavy and bring a Gorax, Stalker, Feral + another heavy.
Fill out with Stones/Wilder/Blackclad/Gallows Groves as needed.
Deflection isn't needed since you have so few warrior models. Sky Bourne and/or Tornado through Gallows Grove.
Upkeep Lightning Tendrils on the Feral.

At 50 points:
You may want to add a Geomancer, depending on your Meta. if you see alot of troops, replace 3rd heavy from 35 point list with Woldwarden or Megalith.
Tharn women all rock with pKrueger.
Against Hordes or heavy infantry, Tharn Bloodweavers are the best.
If you bring Bloodtrackers, bring Nuala.
Lightning Tendrils should be upkept on your Tharn women until they are dead, then switch it to the Feral.
At 50 points, Deflection only helps if you have Wolfriders. The difference between ARM 11 and ARM 13 on the other Tharn women is minimal except against the weakest AOE attacks.

Don't worry about wasted arcs. If you can get 1 or 2 extra kills/turn from a unit with Lightning Tendrils, that's still something to talk about for a 2 point upkeep.

Remember that Lightning Tendrils gives Reach, so you can space your models accordingly and add a few extra possible arcs in there.

[Thanan]

First off, I didn't read the above posts, so this may be duplicate info, and I'm kinda tired anyway.

That said, I love Krueger 1. He's currently my favorite Circle caster.

Here's my 50 point list that I've had good success with so far:

Krueger (5)
Feral 9
Stalker 10
Gorax 4
Megalith 11
Wilder 2
Blackclad 2
2x Gallows Groves 2
Shifting Stones + UA 3
Shifting Stones 2
10 BT + UA 10

For a total of 50. Add in 2x woldshrimp units for flanks.

First off, the plan is to go second. Pick the side with the better terrain, or just let your opponent think they are going to jam you really well. Your deployment should have the nonstealth stones around Megalith at the 10" mark. The stealth stones should be at the AD line. Shift Megalith forward to barely the outside edge of the AD line stones. Shift him straight up towards any infantry that ran. Use the gallows groves to flank up the field (AD + 5" going second gets you 22" up the board roughly, so 32" threat on chain lightning almost reaches their AD lines). Run wilder up so that Megalith is in Krueger's extended range. Megalith uses his animus and geomancies chain lightning off a nearby unit. Krueger advances (up to a wall preferably) and feats. Arc chain lightning through each gallows grove at the infantry jams. The feat's priorities aren't so much to actually hit models (unless you can actually reach them pretty easily, then go for it I guess) as it is to stop models from advancing into and contesting a zone. Couple with the 5" aoe of rough terrain, this can seriously hamper any opponent's chances of scoring on geometry (clearly easier in some scenarios than others). Put LT on the feral, don't use the bloodtrackers as melee troops unless you have to, really consider using just their throws + reform.

Don't worry much about the spell deflection - anything that gets a hit in this list will likely die even with the buff to armor. Concentrate on putting out as much anti infantry as you can with Krueger, and start using skyborne if they start to threaten you with range or long range janky assassinations. If you start losing your beasts, arc tornado at their heavies and just win on scenario.

I tend to pick Krueger 1 against troll (non brick) lists, Cryx, Khador, and PoM infantry spam (not jack spam or heavy infantry spam). It can be used against most hordes armies to decent effect, and really only runs into problems clearing infantry with Cygnar lightning immune.

I don't really get Krueger close enough to cast spells except through the gallows groves. Keep those babies alive as long as possible.

Hope this helps.

[VOLK]

I've got a lot to say about this subject. Hopefully I can find some power in this blasted airport and can say it.

One thing for you to think about, though. He may become far less useful. Looking at the Colossals release, it seems that Infantrymachine is on the way out.

It remains to be seen what effect Colossals will have on the game, but I expect they will be bringing an entourage of support models (bonus for LofF?), and there are still plenty of very potent infantry units even in an environment with huge bases. We may well come to a balance where infantry trump jacks who trump colossals who trump infantry (in the most general terms, of course). I fully expect to find myself facing down many a Stormwall in the coming days; I certainly will be fielding one. But you wouldn't take Krueger against Cygnar anyway.

This just emphasizes that Krueger's army should focus on anti-armor, and let Kruger handle infantry himself. Lately, I don't finding myself casting Chain Lightning all that often, as I usually can get better results from bouncing Lightning Tendrils.

[Gsot]

I'm running,

pKrueger
Stalker
Pureblood
Megalith
Gorax

Max BT + Nuala
Woldshrimps
Stones + ua
Stones
Gallows Grove


Enjoying it, not sure I'm getting 9 points out of the pureblood, finding feat and chain lightning can get to the hard to reach places his spray normally does. Ghostly is cool, but only on himself really. Think I'm going to switch to a feral for a bit.

I'm still learning him though only about 8 games in. I am surprised at his assassination options so far, pleasantly surprised. Destroying tarpits easily tends to bunch remaining models together, tornado and BT javs + shrimps is gold, as is boosted feat, 3 chain lightnings and leap off his gun for the 14-15 arm casters.

[MOZZ]

@Thanan

That's a pretty slick set up, I may have to start with a similar list when I buy Krueger.

I joined Circle and Hordes for the Kaya2 theme force which allows me to run very beast heavy. I am kinda strapped for cash so I want to pick a caster that can make use of Kaya's beasts but handle troops effectively. Krueger seems tailor made to deal with infantry but I've had a hard time wrapping my head around him. Your plan of attack really makes sense to me. Early pressure with a dash of board control for scenario, I like it a lot.

Couple questions though:
Do you find you're able to hold onto Megalith or does pushing him that far forward mean he dies?
What do you think of Nyss Hunters instead of BT's?
How does Krueger weather ranged armies?

[SillySod]

I'm not sure that going second especially facilitates that gameplan...

If you were to go first and run everything forwards then you would end up closer to the scenario objective and you would have everything in place to immediately threaten your opponent rather than only having Megalith as an option. You can still use the feat as denial except that Krueger would be further upfield so you should get some bonus infantry kills as well as gaining the control option. The opponent would still only get two turns to contest the objective before you start scoring.

Its really hard to see why going second would be helpful. Mind you, thats not a bad plan to have at your disposal if you get forced to go second.

[Gobos]

I'm not sure that going second especially facilitates that gameplan...

If you were to go first and run everything forwards then you would end up closer to the scenario objective and you would have everything in place to immediately threaten your opponent rather than only having Megalith as an option. You can still use the feat as denial except that Krueger would be further upfield so you should get some bonus infantry kills as well as gaining the control option. The opponent would still only get two turns to contest the objective before you start scoring.

Its really hard to see why going second would be helpful. Mind you, thats not a bad plan to have at your disposal if you get forced to go second.

Well, i think going second has the advantage in the fact that you can score on your 2nd turn. If your first turn was concentrated on denying your opponent the option to put too many models in a zone, I can see it working. Not in in every scenario though.