ECaine trick...legal?

[Garath]

Hi guys, this maybe belongs in the rules questions section but since it's about Caine I'll just post here:

I was just reading and thinking about ECaine caster kill tricks,and came to a conclusion that if the following trick is legal, Gate Crasher stops being a spell that's the only way to get Caine further upfield.

The situation is as follows: Caine is too far away from his target , so more then 19" away. Move a friendly model between Caine and his pray 10" away from Caine. Reinhlodt reloads Caine's gun, Caine activates and charges the friendly model in it's back arc. Kills the model with it's guns(gunfighter) ,then proceeds to feat and pour 1 initial,1 re-loaded and 6 focus shots into his target...Being pow 13,14,15,16,17,18,19

The benefit is 3" inches....so his total range is then 22" threat. Add in Madam C. and we are looking at 25" range.

The question remains- is it legal?

[FearLord]

Its legal, so long as he has no enemy models with 1/2" of him when he wants to shoot at his distant target.

[Rolling_Thunder]

it's not only legal, but it's caines' primary assassination run. the gatecrash is risky because you lose 3 shots.

[Garath]

This is huge- as Caine needs to in fact only make a charge to gain extra inches of range....what's even funnier you don't even need to do this on your assasination run- possibilities are endless. Hit and run , blast away some infantry or solo and Gate crusher away etc

[Garath]

got ninjaed....

[Optimus Bryan]

A couple of other caveats-
1) You have to turn and directly face anything you charge. This means you have to make sure you will LOS to your real target beyond the patsy model.
2) You don't have to kill your friendly model, just attack it. If you miss, you can still go ahead. If you don't kill it, it will stick around and possibly block LOS to targets beyond, but this isn't always the case.
3) Make sure you don't announce your feat before you shoot the friendly. It will go AoE and a POW 10 can kill a wounded eCaine.

I have used a friendly Grenadier twice to pull this off. If it is dug in, it doesn't block LOS for Caine and at DEF 18 it has a decent chance of not being hit. Even better, if you aren't going for a caster kill, you can eliminate your target then activate and rotate the Grenadier to protect Caine from your opponents response.

[leo_neil316]

it's not only legal, but it's caines' primary assassination run. the gatecrash is risky because you lose 3 shots.

Don't forget you can combine it with gatecrasher too, especially on lower ARM stuff.

Poor buggers think they're safe behind their screen, then you charge, gate-crash, and see the look on your opponents face when you go between 18 and 22" then shoot them point blank in the face!

[Garath]

I just might gives that Gentleman a try! Any other stunts you guys pulled off- one of those jaw dropping moments ?

[watchgeorgerock]

wouldnt charging the greniader then pull him out of dug in since you just engaged him in a combat situation

[James_Rayner]

I just might gives that Gentleman a try! Any other stunts you guys pulled off- one of those jaw dropping moments ?

I was playing agaisnt my mates Harby theme list once. He had sat here behind a wall and thought himself safe from Caine, which was fair enough as he was miles away. I ran up my unit of rangers, one close to Harby and the other inbetween Caine and Harby.

Reloaded Caine and stripped a focus off the squire. Popped feat, charged into the ranger inbetween, used gatecrasher to get in melee of Harby. Ranger close to Harby negated awe and I started firing away. Needless to say, Harby died.

[TerTer]

Yes it's legal. Same as with eStryker if you do not have a straight line, charge your own guy or enemy, kill it or not. Use velocity to move to side to wanted target.

[leo_neil316]

wouldnt charging the greniader then pull him out of dug in since you just engaged him in a combat situation

No, you only engage enemy models.

[Garath]

I played quite a few games with pCaine- and he supports his army much better then eCaine...

How would you guys build a decent self-sufficient list?

[leo_neil316]

I played quite a few games with pCaine- and he supports his army much better then eCaine...

How would you guys build a decent self-sufficient list?

eCaine can support an army just fine, he just does it differently. Blur and heightened reactions and gunfighter give you gunmages who are damn hard to take out. Can't shoot 'em all, can't knock 'em down or make them stationary so you can hit, and they're RAT 7 (9 with rangers) in melee so you can't run to engage 'em either.

Magic bullet lets you hit support solo's that are trying to hide and Caine himself can take out stealthed things, either with his guns, or from 17" away with arcane bolts.

Or both, it's focus intensive, but he can advance, pop a couple of shots at stealthed things, then gatecrash to take out something on the opposite side of the field with an arcane bolt, just make sure you move the squire to his landing position.

[PG_viggo3000]

I played quite a few games with pCaine- and he supports his army much better then eCaine...

How would you guys build a decent self-sufficient list?

I play alot of both cains. I like to run more cc stuff with ecain since he dont boost shooting as good as his prime form. I also like close combat jacks with him to crack armour.

The basic stuff in 99% of my eCain lists.
Ecain
Squire: Extra shot
The gobber: Extra shot
Centurion: Scenario grabber.
Rangers: Cain suport.

Basicly you need to make a list that suports cain and denies your oponent the scenario.

[Ikras]

Is it just me or when you shoot with gunfighter in melee does that then not stop you from firing non gunfighter shots afterwards. I.e. shots beyond your melee range.

Unless I am forgetting something from caine or have it all wrong. Can't remember where I picked this up from now that I think about it.

[Garath]

How would this work ( among other things in the list)...

ECaine
Cyclone
Centurion
Rangers
Squire
Reinholdt

21 pts so far...throw B13 in for some anti stealth...perhaps Junior for AS Caine or Centurion. Sword knights to give the opposition something to keep them buisy. 3 pts left to 35... taughts?
Strangely enough, instead of Junior and SK- Stormblades would fit into this list- Rangers buff their Assault, they hit like a ton of brick and Blurring them will raise their DEF to 15- nothing THAT great but can save their behind while advancing

[Garath]

Ikras ninjad me ....

As I understand it , Gunfighter let's Caine do ranged attacks in melee- so he isn't using both melee and ranged attacks in the same faze...
This is why I started this topic- for I've seen Holdt has Virtuoso that let's him make both melee and ranged attacks in the same activation- to be able to both shoot and use gunblades...
Gunfighter is different of course

[Nutcase168]

Only thing else to note is doesn't reinholt have to be BTB/ 3" to reload for the extra shot, so you would have to run him first near your charge target to get the extra shot. (still remembering MKI here but though his MKII rules were very similar) And don't forget if you brought a squire to pull the extra focus off before you charge.

As I understand it , Gunfighter let's Caine do ranged attacks in melee- so he isn't using both melee and ranged attacks in the same faze...

Correct, eCaine has no melee weapon to make melee attacks with. All of his attacks and RNG.

[cfox5012]

yes nutcase Reinholdt does have to be B2B to do any of his abilities with the warcaster.

[vintersbastard]

Only thing else to note is doesn't reinholt have to be BTB/ 3" to reload for the extra shot, so you would have to run him first near your charge target to get the extra shot.

Reinholdt has to be in b2b during his own activation, not the warcaster's.

[gigolo.me]

is this for real?? i thought using a gunfighter attack would mean he can then only target others in his 0.5 range?? this is game changing!!

[vintersbastard]

is this for real?? i thought using a gunfighter attack would mean he can then only target others in his 0.5 range?? this is game changing!!

Nope. He's restricted if he either used Gatecrasher before or has enemy models in his melee range, but otherwise he doesn't care.

[PellaxVeritas]

so if im following this conversation correctly, your saying caine can charge a friendly model resolve the attack then shoot 12 inches beyond?
but if he charges a enemy kills it can he then finish shots at ranged assuming no other enemy model is engaging him?

assuming i understood this.. it makes things get silly... and makes me wish i knew this before lol.

[Pydracor]

Yes to both questions. eCaine only has ranged attacks and Gunfighter, so he doesn't need something like Virtuoso to kill something in "melee" and then shoot at targets further away (as long as he's not engaged, as you already pointed out).

22" threat range... that really is silly

[Garath]

Indeed.

Didn't realize it at first ( who knew? ) ,that trick would be possible. Considering the fact that eCaine shoots 2 times + 6 FOC+ squire+ reinholdt- that's pow 12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19- enough to bring almost any model in the game down with no sweat.

I was just browsing the Skorne forums the other day and saw a "how to deal with Cygnar" sticky ,red it through and realized just how good Caine is.
Used to play a lot of games with pCaine,and only lost a single one back in MK1 , now it's time for eCaine....
So while the opposition try to deal with Caine(if at all) I can hit them with my OTHER army!

- in theory it should work


Is eCaine a strictly an assassin or do you guys think he should feat early on,tip the balance in my favour rather then waiting for that one "perfect" moment?

[Nierak]

I'm still new to cygnar (Circle is my hordes army). I've played just 2 games with ECaine but won both by playing him quite far back.

First games i feated to drop 2 menoth heavies (1 almost dead). Prior to this he had almost single handidly took out a unit of errants by moving up shooting and fleeing for a couple of turns. Dropping the 2 heavies pretty much won the game as my infantry machine was in a much stronger position. Storm clad crippled the first heavy but epic fails on the dice left the usual 1 pt in smashy arm 1 in the cortex and of course the clad died with focus to spare.

Second game was also very good. Played him very far back again. Shotup a couple of infantry turn 2 and magic bulleted an important solo. Feat turn was just to destroy a mangler as ecaine handles infantry extremely well (reinholt gives 3 shots per turn without spending focus). Later on he finished a nomad and magic bulleted Holt before gate crashing to the 3rd flag and victory.

Without charging he has a 19inch threat range, which begs the question as to why you would risk playing him to far up the field.

While i'm still new with Ecaine I'm going to continue to pick off key targets with him and play safe.

One thing of note from my games... Poor Piper took 4 damage in the first game then a Double 6 on damage from the objective that blows up for pw 32 on him >< 2nd game eiryss double 6 on damage on him again. Poor mr Piper

[Garath]

pCaine can be anywhere you want him to... since both versions have a spell that let's them teleport- it makes sense to put them near enough to the opposition to put their feats to good use.

It makes sense to put them into "relative" danger- not on point,but up front in some situations. Against casters which need to be near their troops to support them ,but have a shorter threat range then Caine it makes perfect sense.

This can lead to them being under pressure to stay back ,and fail to support their army to full effect. On the other hand , if they advance to a position they feel safe ,but Caine proves them wrong- that's the game there.
Even pCaine is a decent assassin - can shoot stuff with a 23" threat (move + range + snipe) and we all know how pow 12's can kill people.

Caine is a great caster to play in caster kill scenarios ...being one of those who pick their fights

[gigolo.me]

I love this a lot, kinda wish I knew it before hand. Thi is great to try at a tourney near me soon

[Gryphin]

One thing to remember though, Overkill only stacks on Enemy Models killed. So you do not get the +1 bonus for the shot you take to kill your own ranger in the back for the charge distance.

[Nutcase168]

One thing to remember though, Overkill only stacks on Enemy Models killed. So you do not get the +1 bonus for the shot you take to kill your own ranger in the back for the charge distance.

Enemy models hit, not killed. Otherwise it wouldn't be very good against medium to high armor casters.

[Frozen Yakman]

I think Caine2 still holds the record for longest threat range. Gate Crasher restricts his range attack range, but not his Magic Attack range.7" (SPD) + 3" (charge) + 8" (Gate Crasher) + 12" (Arcane Bolt Range) + 5" (Range Amplifier) gives him a thread of 35". It's not generally a great idea, but its there.

[leo_neil316]

Even pCaine is a decent assassin - can shoot stuff with a 23" threat (move + range + snipe) and we all know how pow 12's can kill people.

'Boosted POW 12's kill casters' is in fact a pCaine reference. As is 'And then Caine got LOS' as a battle report finish.