Is the Mountain King the new Skinner?

[cryptomancer]

Seems to be my gut reaction thus far.

Doesn't quite have the oopmh to pay for its points, is in desperate need of buffs, and other stuff we have does its job better.

Am I wrong?

-crypto

P.S. i really hope i'm wrong...

[PG_Celedor]

Don't be such a rabble-rouser

While I think it's obvious many Troll players expected more for a 20 point model, and there is merit to many arguments along those lines, there are many nuances to fielded play that may be overlooked in theorymachine and comparative analysis.

One thing both certainly have in common: fantastic models! That alone means a home in my display case

[PG_petegrrrr]

No. He's not as bad as the skinner. He's in the neighborhood, but he at least has something no one else in faction has, a high pow spray 10.

The mountain king's issue is that, for his abilities and stats, he's overcosted by serval points. The Skinners problem is that he doesn't do anything at all that your army won't already do anyway.

[wargrim]

Well i'm mostly off petegrrrr's opinion. But there is something that is absolutely the same between the skinner and the king: People try to tell you that he is really great, you only need to throw every possible buff in our faction at them.

[PG_machine007]

He has the most powerful spray in the game if I remember right.

He is not the skinner is any way shape or form. He might not be the greatest thing in the world, but he isn't unusable. and +1 to petegrrr

[Cleavelander]

Hmmm, who would win in a fight, 1 MK or 10 skinners?

[Kamahin]

Commodore Cannon, Sp10 Pow20.

[themocaw]

He has the most powerful spray in the game if I remember right.

Commodore. MtK, however, can boost.

[wargrim]

Hm, king is able to boost, but he needs 12's to hit. 10 charging Skinner would one turn him, but then they charge one by one, so he is able to block some charge lanes with whelps.
But overall, in a vacuum, I think the skinners would win.

[Sneak]

I was hoping that he would tear big chunks of earth out of the ground and toss it at his enemiesin the form of AOEs. When I saw the Diorama of him holding a tree he tore out of the ground I thought I might be right. Then I see he has a spray and I'm like "huh? Isn't that something a dragon should have." Oh well. I can get used to a pow 16 spray twice per turn. The models looks cool and I will still pick it up for that reason.

[Digestive]

I don't think that the MK is bad. I simply do not play 150p. Unbound games that often. Or at all...

[wargrim]

double post

[wargrim]

Oh well. I can get used to a pow 16 spray twice per turn.

You want to play two MKs?

[omerplata]

He is the eGrissel of the gargantuans.

[theflyingdutchman59]

He is the eGrissel of the gargantuans.

yea i agree, the MtnK needs just moar play time. id say hes over costed justa tad(2-3 points) if he had liek 5 more health boxes, id be happy.

[omerplata]

Yeah, while still very lackluster, he is playable. That said, I am probably not gonna buy one right after they release. To many other models that will help my army just a tad more.

[HellecticMojo]

Hmmm, who would win in a fight, 1 MK or 10 skinners?

MK definitely. amuck, sweep. the deed is done.

[omerplata]

Doesn't the skinner have def 17-18 when in combat with a warbeast? Even with amuck you will need better than average rolls to hit.

[PG_alphastealer]

To me this guy's stats should make Mulg look like the little brother, bit if anything it is the other way around.

If you look at the alternatives it is about 4 pts over costed.

For 20pts you could rather get, 2x bombers or almost a mulg and mauler (1 pt over), or a bomber and EBDT.

You tell me which you would rather have?

[Carrington]

What are the Unbound rules, and how do they resonate with high-cost/high power density models?

Seems to me this may be one key issue to resolve: it may well be that the MK is weak/unbalanced in a 50 pt game, but much more reasonable in a 150 pt game.

[Crate123]

MK definitely. amuck, sweep. the deed is done.

He wouldnt even hit on averages.

[sleet01]

What are the Unbound rules, and how do they resonate with high-cost/high power density models?

Seems to me this may be one key issue to resolve: it may well be that the MK is weak/unbalanced in a 50 pt game, but much more reasonable in a 150 pt game.

Only Warmachine models have Unbound Formations published (in Colossals), so that info for the Mountain King is still unavailable. In general, though, the Colossals' Formation benefits are staggeringly good: two Stormwalls basically grants cNemo's "Lightning Field" ability to the whole army, while two or more Galleons in one army gives Galleons Assault. I would not be surprised to see MK get Assault or Point Blank from its Formation benefit.

[JamesDiGriz]

10 sinners should do about 6 damage each if I am doing the math right (19 - 8 +17.5), which equals dead MK... Now given they don't have reach, getting that many medium bases there will prove tricky. If he survives the charge of the sinners, amuck and sweep should hit at least a couple, spend a couple more fury buying attacks and hopefully pop at least one more. Figure down to 7 guys... They hit back for 21, he eats another couple if he survives... All and all a losing prospect for the mtn king.

[Sardonic Artery]

10 sinners should do about 6 damage each if I am doing the math right (19 - 8 +17.5), which equals dead MK... Now given they don't have reach, getting that many medium bases there will prove tricky. If he survives the charge of the sinners, amuck and sweep should hit at least a couple, spend a couple more fury buying attacks and hopefully pop at least one more. Figure down to 7 guys... They hit back for 21, he eats another couple if he survives... All and all a losing prospect for the mtn king.

Your auto-correct must love Jesus.

[Impostor]

I think that the main thing about this one is survivability. In the end, even two jacks would have trouble killing it in one turn, especially if we put KSB on him. (not counting all the other ways to boost def and armor).
And even if they kill an aspect or two, the caster just spends measly 2 fury, and the king is back, making mashed potatoes out of everything that decided to charge him last turn.
Also, we have to wait for the stats of the giants of other factions to see if this is really as bad as some of you are saying.

[The Happy Anarchist]

He is not as bad as the Skinner - he is not nearly as easy for the opponent to trivialize. A big problem with the Skinner, in addition to not needing his role, is how trivially he can be negated by an opponent by just sending infantry in.

He also brings 2" reach power attacks, the Power Strike and Sweep power attacks with Amuck as well as the spray. It is just a lot to swallow for 20 points, especially when you realize that you give up your initials for the power attacks. Of course, it is better for the Mountain King to give up his two initials, and likely still get the spray than Colossals to give up there double handful of gunshots for a power attack.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I think that the main thing about this one is survivability. In the end, even two jacks would have trouble killing it in one turn, especially if we put KSB on him. (not counting all the other ways to boost def and armor).
And even if they kill an aspect or two, the caster just spends measly 2 fury, and the king is back, making mashed potatoes out of everything that decided to charge him last turn.
Also, we have to wait for the stats of the giants of other factions to see if this is really as bad as some of you are saying.

Holy crap people, stop saying it is survivable! It is less survivable than its equivalent points in heavy warbeasts. It is not more survivable, it is less!

[Lawso42]

10 sinners should do about 6 damage each if I am doing the math right (19 - 8 +17.5), which equals dead MK... Now given they don't have reach, getting that many medium bases there will prove tricky. If he survives the charge of the sinners, amuck and sweep should hit at least a couple, spend a couple more fury buying attacks and hopefully pop at least one more. Figure down to 7 guys... They hit back for 21, he eats another couple if he survives... All and all a losing prospect for the mtn king.

That is a very interesting typo...

Lawso

[PG_petegrrrr]

Living vegas, I can assure you that 10 sinners cannot tear themselves away from the hard rock buffet long enough to do anything besides get drunk and wet their cargo shorts before passing out in front of Margaritaville on the strip while missing at least 1 sandal.

[Funkylovebear]

The thing to remember is while he is not as good as mulg point for point when you look at tournament lists where you can only take a character once what other pow 19 reachmodel do we have? And I may die very easily if you look at bronze back/storm clad ect charging in a vacuum but in game its never that simple. We need a battle report thread on this on doom threads. While doom was my initial thought I think there is potential with the right casters, doomies gunBjorn maybe borka. Have faith that the playtesting worked

[PG_Celedor]

I think there's a disconnect between the use of the word survivability in regards to MtK.

It's true, when broken down into a point cost/hit box ratio, the MtK looses out to other beasts relative survivabilty. But, perhaps, some people are stressing his durability and survivability as the single most durable beast we now have. On it's own that's not saying much.

However, accompanied by Mulg, EB, and fixings, I'm considering him a welcome addition to the line up. I expect to have a lot of fun seeing the looks on opponents faces... For any cost/ability disparity he might have... He won't appear any less intimidating or fun to play as a center piece in a Beast Brick.

[Sneak]

Why wouldn't the MK get 2 sprays a turn? He gets one as an initial and one from Kill Shot right?

[PG_Celedor]

For Kill shot he needs to kill something in melee. To kill something in melee he needs to choose to do a melee attack and forfeit his initial ranged attacks.

[PG_petegrrrr]

I am curious about how the playtesting went, as he has wording in his abilities that is completely unnecessary. For example, it says regardless of ROF on Kill shot, but he can literally never exceed his ROF of 1.

...unless....one of our new warlocks or theme bonuses/unbound bonuses gives him assualt, which would be kinda sweet!

[PG_machine007]

I am curious about how the playtesting went, as he has wording in his abilities that is completely unnecessary. For example, it says regardless of ROF on Kill shot, but he can literally never exceed his ROF of 1.

...unless....one of our new warlocks or theme bonuses/unbound bonuses gives him assualt, which would be kinda sweet!

Killshot is also on the Kraken and possibly more models. I think they just do that so when there is a model that can do both, it disperses any questions.

[hooligantuesday]

I am curious about how the playtesting went, as he has wording in his abilities that is completely unnecessary. For example, it says regardless of ROF on Kill shot, but he can literally never exceed his ROF of 1.

...unless....one of our new warlocks or theme bonuses/unbound bonuses gives him assualt, which would be kinda sweet!

I'm curious how this guy got through playtesting at the 20 point bracket, does nobody in the Privateer Testing meta use heavy warbeasts or spend more than 2 Fury/Focus attacking this thing. I'm kind of baffled how you make a big centrepiece model like this and then balance it so poorly that every Warmahordes player who's not in denial looks at it and goes "hmm, what an overcosted piece of ****"

[Sneak]

For Kill shot he needs to kill something in melee. To kill something in melee he needs to choose to do a melee attack and forfeit his initial ranged attacks.

I read the colossal rules wrong. I thought they could make melee and ranged attacks in the same activation like Behemoth. Your right it clearly only says that they can make ranged attacks while in melee. That is unfortunate.

[PG_BrickandMurder]

In regards to playtesting and how many points he costs:
Whelp Shedding allows him to manage his own fury and block lanes, heal etc all the good whelpy things. There's nothing that says these are his own personal whelps an noone else can use them , so I think it is plausible that part of his point cost reflects the fact that he spawns models that are not only useful to himself, but to the rest of your list as well.

Yes your opponent needs to damage him to spawn the whelps, but if they are willing to leave him alone just so you don't spawn whelps then so be it.

I am not here to laud his coming, but I am looking forward to getting one on the table. Can someone else's 12 pt character drop him? Probably, but Mulg can make paper clips out of the stormwall. So far I think that the powers that be have managed to prevent the problem of power creep. One model type is not better than another model type. Lists can use whichever type of models a player chooses and he is gauranteed neither a win nor a loss because of specific model type.

Besides the model makes me rethink my wedding vows.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Mulg actually can't kill a stormwall without buffing or hot dice, and a stormwall is just as likely to have defensive buffs as mulg is to have offensive buffs. Sure he can do it, but no where near as easily as he can paste a mountain king.

[Edwars]

Stormwall has 56 boxes at arm 19

Mulg charges - using average rolls and assuming all attacks hit.
1 pow 19+ 3d6 = 10pts
1 pow 17 + 2d6 = 5pts
4 pow 19 + 2d6 = 28pts

Total = 43

So the Stormwall is still alive. This is in vacuum, but the result still stands.

The Mountain King has the same arm as the Stormwall so in vacuum against mulg, he will still live (as he has 48dmg boxes) in addition, 6 whelps have been spawned. Thus the mountain king can then heal between 6 and 18 dmg boxes without outside support.


While adding in common buffs is always good when theory machining, I find it is best to look at thing in vacuum as this brings out the true abilities of the model.

Now let's look at the various retaliation of the model in question:

The Stormwall:
with only 13 dmg boxes remaining, the Stormwall is not health, at leat one dmg grid is full (thus it has lost one arm) and it is likely that other systems are dissabled as well.

Assuming that he may be allocated focus, then against mulg (again assuming all attacks hit)
1 pow 20 + 1d6 = 4pts
4 pow 20 + 2d6 = 32pts
Total = 36

Mountain King
has all aspects due to healing, assuming all attacks hit with average rolls
7 pow 19 + 2d6 = 49pts

Now mulg has 34 dmg boxes so in both cases he is dead, but the mountain king is far healthier than the Stormwall and thus is a bigger threat. Also, the mountain king can one round mulg with poorer than average rolls (rolling 5 dmg per attack - total 35pts)