Is the Mountain King the new Skinner?

[hooligantuesday]

Now mulg has 34 dmg boxes so in both cases he is dead, but the mountain king is far healthier than the Stormwall and thus is a bigger threat. Also, the mountain king can one round mulg with poorer than average rolls (rolling 5 dmg per attack - total 35pts)

Although given that the Mountain kings needs a 6 to hit Mulg with every attack, that's less certain that he'll get the damage.

[Edwars]

While this is true, the word "assuming" was all throughout my post.

Now even if the mountain king misses with 2 attacks, on average rolls, mulg is still dead

[hooligantuesday]

While this is true, the word "assuming" was all throughout my post.

Now even if the mountain king misses with 2 attacks, on average rolls, mulg is still dead

And now i consider that when hit the first time Mulg spawned a whelp, the mountain king now needs 7s to hit a def 11 beast.... and I made myself sad considering that i'm going to have to buy a Mountain King just for his awesome synergy with painting cool models.

[Edwars]

And now i consider that when hit the first time Mulg spawned a whelp, the mountain king now needs 7s to hit a def 11 beast.

And now we enter the realm outside of a vacuum, and it all boils down to who does what to whom.
you have armor buffs, well I have strength buffs
you have a def buff, I have an accuracy buff
you do X, well then I do Y

And this is where theorizing begins to break down, we can't encompass every situation.

[wargrim]

While such 'in a vacuum'-comparisons are a nice start for discussions, they are to short sighted. If you do this with the skinner, he doesn't look that bad. But part of his problem is the ease with that he is trivialized.
So yeah, if Mulg starts in charge range and there is nothing else that's, what happens. But more likely he needs to advance a turn before charging. During this turn he will will take heavy damage by stormwall, because this one has heavy ranged weapons.
More important is that there are other Models. The king survives with only 5 HP remaining, meaning the moment there are reach models he is still dead. While it's much harder to take away the 13HP of stormwall.

[cryptomancer]

Alright, alright, he's not quite Skinner-bad. I do think the King's got some survivability issues, though. On the other hand, I haven't even thought of all the ways you can mess your foe up with Whelp placement. I think I need to pick up another blister or two. (already own two)

-crypto

[Digestive]

I think, beside his relative squishiness, he can pretty easily taken out of the game by any 6p. medium based infantry (heck, even good spaced out small bases). They don't even need to hit him, just deny him to enter the fray. Clever spacing or medium bases denies trampling and with his speed 5 and 5" base he won't be able to march around them. He can swing at them and clear every round 3 to 4 grunts and that is it. He doesn't even get to spawn whelps, if your opponent doesn't want it. So the often stated 18+2 cost is also very circumstantial.

[PG_machine007]

I think, beside his relative squishiness, he can pretty easily taken out of the game by any 6p. medium based infantry (heck, even good spaced out small bases). They don't even need to hit him, just deny him to enter the fray. Clever spacing or medium bases denies trampling and with his speed 5 and 5" base he won't be able to march around them. He can swing at them and clear every round 3 to 4 grunts and that is it. He doesn't even get to spawn whelps, if your opponent doesn't want it. So the often stated 18+2 cost is also very circumstantial.

The same can be done with Heavies, they are just a little bit more manueverable. I would say this will be a great tactic for trolls since we have most of the cheap medium based units, and actually use ours frequently. However, this is also very circumstantial as well. There will be other models in your army as well. I am sure some of them will be able to clear a path. If anything, the MK can easily kill half the unit in one turn by sweeping those three models, then spraying at least 1-2 other models in the unit.

All of this will also be dependent of how you play him as well. If you have him in the front to be susceptible to this, then its your fault. Parting the Red Sea will be very useful for this guy.

[Digestive]

The same can be done with Heavies, they are just a little bit more manueverable.

I'm not sure about this. Their bases are much smaller, so it's more difficult to block heavies that way. Also: You block one heavy, that is probably only 9 to 10 points, not 20.

[PG_Celedor]

Lacking the range threat of the colossal counterparts, MtK seems particularly vulnerable to being neutralized in such a way.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Yep, I think that is the biggest part that makes MtK easier to deal with. Having just that one 10" spray for ranged presence is bad.

That said, definitely not as easy to deal with as the Skinner. At least if the MtK gets jammed by infantry you aren't reduced to pawing ineffectually at one per turn. Also, there isn't an infantry unit in the game that the MtK doesn't win a fight against. Or heck, even an equivalent points worth of infantry. It outthreats most of the infantry that hits hard enough to be a problem - maybe Sentinels?

This is as opposed to the Skinner that actually loses the fight against an equal cost of infantry - even if it is given the charge.

[hooligantuesday]

Also, there isn't an infantry unit in the game that the MtK doesn't win a fight against. Or heck, even an equivalent points worth of infantry.

Sinlge unit no, but equivalent point Bane Thralls with UA would take the mounty to pieces, tough weapon master infantry that don't trigger Killshot and reduce his ARM by 2. That said i don't hold that against the Mountain King because Bane Thrall are stupidly powerful for a 5/8 unit.

[wargrim]

Bane knights could be a problem too. On the charge, they have the same range. And even if the king kills 2 before they charge, they kill him on averages. If he kills more with his spray they run into problems, but will heavily dent him, thanks to vengeance.

Oh and while not killing him themselves, things like electroleap, chainlightning and such will cause him some grief, since it kills his healing.

[sourclams]

It outthreats most of the infantry that hits hard enough to be a problem - maybe Sentinels?

Can Gargs charge and power attack, or are you talking about eDoomy/Rush speed buffs?

[Silopolis]

Skinners are 2-point solos meant to fight beasts. Of course they'll get overpowered by equal or higher points worth of infantry and are easier to deal with than Mountain King.

I feel like most of the conversation we're getting is "Oh, he's not THAT bad," which is a shame. After the reveal of the model, we should be all, "Holy crap, I can't wait to do these interesting things with this awesome beast!"

I guess there could be some secret sauce we're not seeing that makes him somehow worth 1 point more than Stormwall, but man, I'm not seeing it.

[PG_petegrrrr]

So on average 10 skinners would kill the mountain king if they all got charges...finally, something the skinners are good at! Killing our own Gargantuan!

[Kamahin]

So on average 10 skinners would kill the mountain king if they all got charges...finally, something the skinners are good at! Killing our own Gargantuan!

Shamelessly stolen ;p

[skurkious]

I think the thing that scares me the most is the MK's greatest attribute(healing) is much to easy to take away from him. Sure he can spawn a bunch of whelps(if he even has room for them...) but whelps are sooo easy to kill. Anything with grevious wounds can shut him down.

[PG_thegreatblah]

I think the thing that scares me the most is the MK's greatest attribute(healing) is much to easy to take away from him. Sure he can spawn a bunch of whelps(if he even has room for them...) but whelps are sooo easy to kill. Anything with grevious wounds can shut him down.

I am underwhelmed by his rules but did get to see him played a lot at Lock and Load and killing the whelps behind the MK are significantly harder to kill.

[azaminkor]

So on average 10 skinners would kill the mountain king if they all got charges...finally, something the skinners are good at! Killing our own Gargantuan!

They also have 80 boxes of damage. And it would only take 7 (ok, you need to be 2.5 points above average), problem is that after the first a whelp would spawn and block one charge (about 6 could make it). Still another thing Skinners can't do.

[Goris]

Can't fit 10 skinners around the base so :P

[PG_LunarSol]

I'm kind of surprised by his damage output. MAT 5 is a pretty big deal. Assuming I did the math on this right, Mulg can do 45.7 damage to him given strict probability and no support. In return, MK just barely one shots him with 36.4 points of damage. A little luck either way can easily determine this one.