Gargantuans and Fury

[The Buoyancy of Water]

About the MK only being able to heal itself if it isn't killed in one turn:

The colosals cannot auto-heal themselves at all to the best of my knowledge, whether they are killed in one round or not. Saying it's no good because if you one-round it it can't heal seems a bit off, considering no one else can do that anyway. Eg: the conquest requires a unit to repair at all, which puts the conquest at 21pts minimum if it wants any sort of repair ability. The fact that the MK has built in auto-heal, combined with the fact that it's easier to heal a beast anyway, balances out the lower amount of boxes.

My thoughts anyway!

Cheers,
Dave

[Breadsmith]

I would just like to point this out: Somebody has to be the worst. Unless all of the Gargantuans end up being "worse than the worst Colossal", There really isn't an issue. You may have expected MK to be better than all the Colossals, I expected Galleon to have 40 deck guns as his weapons, my friends expected Conquest to have 25 armor, and I'm sure people expected Archangel to be a flying ball of tentacles. PP made a model they felt was representative of what they were trying to do. Nobodies forcing you to use him (that I know of).

And on a side note, do Trolls have anything with Anatomical Precision?

[Crate123]

Stormwall: 56
Kraken: 58
Galleon: 58
Judicator: 60
Conquest: 62
Hyperion: 52 + 12 Shield boxes = 64

Wait a second! My Stormwall has 8 less boxes than Hyperion and costs 1 pt more! Therefore it's obviously overcosted at rubbish!!!!!

Oh wait, it isn't...

And the mountaing king is 1 point more expensive than stormwall and has 8 hits less.
Argh this means that the more expensive it is, the fewer health boxes is has...
At this rate, the woldwrath will cost 25 points and have 35 health boxes.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

And the mountaing king is 1 point more expensive than stormwall and has 8 hits less.

And has built in healing (for itself and other beasts, if I'm remembering how whelps work properly..?) and can be healed by the warlock itself, unlike any of the colosals.

[alchahest]

low mat isn't as much an issue because you can boost an entire 4" thresher for a single fury. and if it hits ANYTHING, chances are you've got a kill. and with a kill, you get a kill shot. and that thresher, so long as you're hitting living models, is going to heal you up of as much or more damage than whelps anyways.

[PG_Viper114]

low mat isn't as much an issue because you can boost an entire 4" thresher for a single fury.

4" thresher? I believe MK's sweep attack is only in range of its 2" weapon range. So it's 2" thresher on either the left side or the right side.

[Navarp]

His healing abilities mean nothing because he can be killed in 1 turn (IF he had a diehard ability or something so he couldn't be killed during a turn where he had maximum heath at the start THEN he would be worth 20 points.)

I just can't see a planet where he is 8 points better than MULG. It makes NO SENSE for him to be 20 points and so lackluster. Recycled Animus and all.

I thought that Hordes players were supposed to "reap the benefits of being second." PP says that we "always have and always will." I don't think this is true anymore.

Again the book isn't out yet, PP still has time to fix MK's problems and I hope they make the right choice.

[alchahest]

er, right. but still, 2" around a huge base left or right side, with a boosted attack roll against everything and a high enough pow to take care of pretty much anything he can snack on, I can see that, combined with whelps, combined with warlock beast-healing, combined with all the buffs available to trolls, leaving this model tougher than it appears on paper.

[Navarp]

er, right. but still, 2" around a huge base left or right side, with a boosted attack roll against everything and a high enough pow to take care of pretty much anything he can snack on, I can see that, combined with whelps, combined with warlock beast-healing, combined with all the buffs available to trolls, leaving this model tougher than it appears on paper.

Actually a 25% of a 120mm base model with 2 inch reach affects less area 50% of a 50mm base model with 2 inch reach.

[Hug a Gorax]

If he goes down to five hits, he's effectively worth 18 points (each whelp is 2/5 of a point). That's five boosted P+S 18 rolls, on average dice. Take more hits to down him, and his effective cost comes down further. Food for thought when looking at his costing. Granted you will need other warbeasts to use the whelps, but he is a gargantuan, presumably not fighting in every small skirmish on Caen!

[alchahest]

People are also discounting support pieces, as if troll players would not normally be taking them.

[PG_carnage4u]

After seeing the Mountain king on the table, I'm not too conviced he will be able to be taken out in 1 turn that often. Will it happen now and then Yes. but any Huge base model can and will die now and then on 1 turn. Howerver I dont think it will be that common. The Mountain Kings heals up fast with those welps and snacking, and when you fail to kill it, he is going to punish you big time.

This is from seeing him on the table a couple times already. not theorymachine.

[magi]

I imagine the colossals, and some of the gargantuans, will be able to be engaged for multiple turns by some jacks/warbeasts who will then be able to finish them off the next turn.

Definitely not the Mountain King.

[currentlyunknown]

No form of mechanic is at all comparable to the variety of healing in Hordes. For one thing, every warlock can heal the 1-2 critical boxes that need to be healed.

Points cost may be a bit high, but not substantially. One thing to consider is that point cost also has to look at the effectiveness of spamming. For example, a MK at 17 pts would allow for 2 at 34. Mulg makes it 46 pts. That's a lot of muscle for 50 pts, especially once you factor in WB pts. I think 19 may have been about right, but there are lots of models off by a point or so in most factions.

As a Hordes player, I recognize the inherent imbalance of Fury vs Focus. Focus, as a caster limited pool, does not encourage having multiple jack threats. Some casters mitigate this through feat/spells. As has been mentioned, this lends itself to bringing a single substantial threat, or 2-3 total threats. Fury, on the other hand, lends itself to bringing multiple heavies/beasts as the pool is limited by them, not the warlock. Functionally, this means that every beast operates at full capability while no spirals are out and they are in the warlock's ctrl/herding range. On the other hand, a given jack only operate at full capability when the caster makes a sacrifice of durability and spell casting. Intrinsically, creating a set of models that use these resources, but are singularly powerful would mean that Warmachine wins out. You'd have had to make the Colossals near worthless for it to work otherwise.

[Navarp]

People are also discounting support pieces, as if troll players would not normally be taking them.

I am not. I assume that a full KSB with Eldar will be taken MAYBE Janissa + EBDT (but that is a TON of points.) What other buffs do you think people will be using?

If you argument is "Hey Mountain King rocks if you take 18 additional points of models . . ." then I don't think that really addresses the issue.

[Poppabear40]

He's gonna get tied up with infantry (the MK) I plan on having a counter charge to protect him from the flanks. He is gonna be a BIG target and threat. Use that to your advantage.

[alchahest]

I am not. I assume that a full KSB with Eldar will be taken MAYBE Janissa + EBDT (but that is a TON of points.) What other buffs do you think people will be using?

If you argument is "Hey Mountain King rocks if you take 18 additional points of models . . ." then I don't think that really addresses the issue.

those were the ones I was thinking. finding synergies that work really well (like an axer for rush, and putting amuk onto) isn't just filling holes, it's adding a lot to both models. If this model benefits a lot from a multitude of different models, then that's a strength. even if every other model could also gain those benefits, the fact that this is a huge base, with native reach, standing slams, snacking, rampant whelp production, and an animus that also benefits other troll models, makes it a good model. it's not shiny, but it's solid. that and I think people are discounting just how important snacking is on a model that can boost threshers and tramples, even if the threshers are just quarter-arcs.

[Navarp]

those were the ones I was thinking. finding synergies that work really well (like an axer for rush, and putting amuk onto) isn't just filling holes, it's adding a lot to both models. If this model benefits a lot from a multitude of different models, then that's a strength. even if every other model could also gain those benefits, the fact that this is a huge base, with native reach, standing slams, snacking, rampant whelp production, and an animus that also benefits other troll models, makes it a good model. it's not shiny, but it's solid. that and I think people are discounting just how important snacking is on a model that can boost threshers and tramples, even if the threshers are just quarter-arcs.

It can die in 1 turn to 1 model's attacks. It is a huge liability. And it is boring. It literally does nothing cool except spawn whelps (which is something every troll beast can do already.)

[jandrese]

I am not. I assume that a full KSB with Eldar will be taken MAYBE Janissa + EBDT (but that is a TON of points.) What other buffs do you think people will be using?

If you argument is "Hey Mountain King rocks if you take 18 additional points of models . . ." then I don't think that really addresses the issue.

I think the argument is "Hey Mountain King rocks if you take 18 additional points of models that you were taking anyway...". The Earthborn is optional too, depending on the size of the game, and is a good beast in its own right if you do take it.

[alchahest]

It can die in 1 turn to 1 model's attacks. It is a huge liability. And it is boring. It literally does nothing cool except spawn whelps (which is something every troll beast can do already.)

we're still talking in a vaccuum still right? no caster intervention or anything? which model can beat this beast down in a single turn?

[Navarp]

I think the argument is "Hey Mountain King rocks if you take 18 additional points of models that you were taking anyway...". The Earthborn is optional too, depending on the size of the game, and is a good beast in its own right if you do take it.

But he is 20 points. If you were taking those models anyway then they would have WAY more to support.

[alchahest]

I think the main issue is that if you want to take this guy, then you will want to properly support him. which is no different from any other expensive beast or jack. the only thing is, this guy is more expensive, in return for more boxes, massive amounts of healing, 2x pow 19s, high str, new power attacks, and a huge base.

[Navarp]

we're still talking in a vaccuum still right? no caster intervention or anything? which model can beat this beast down in a single turn?

Mulg, Bronzeback Titian, Feral Warpwolf, Carnavean, Behemoth, Likely Deathjack.

Sorry I don't know other factions ALL that well.

[Navarp]

I think the main issue is that if you want to take this guy, then you will want to properly support him. which is no different from any other expensive beast or jack. the only thing is, this guy is more expensive, in return for more boxes, massive amounts of healing, 2x pow 19s, high str, new power attacks, and a huge base.

Exactly, so how is he 8 points more than Mulg?

[alchahest]

"in return for more boxes, massive amounts of healing, 2x pow 19s, high str, new power attacks, and a huge base"

also: free whelps, and immunity to being moved or immobilised by your opponent. AND a spray that is second only to the commodore cannon in POW, but can be boosted.

[jandrese]

It's a risk. If your opponent goes and tries to kill him but fails, the Mountain King can be significantly healed on the following turn whereas Mulg will still be mostly dead unless he finds a whole bunch of troops to munch on.

If the Mountain King is facing a couple of heavy jacks with P+S 17 attacks, there seems to be a pretty good chance that he will survive assuming the Krielstone buff is up, and better still, he's likely to have 8 or so whelps around to heal ~16 points of damage on the following turn.

Sure if the Butcher has Rage upkept on him and pops his feat and there is no Krielstone nearby, then the Mountain King is going to die. My contention is that would seem to be the exception, not the rule, especially if the Trollblood player is prioritizing the biggest threats to the Mountain King.

[PG_Viper114]

At they very least, he's a very big magnet to lure the enemy in for the others in your force to stomp on. An expensive magnet, to be certain, but a magnet nonetheless.

Not that I would TRY and do that, but it's bound to happen. And if losing him leaves the enemy models in a bad spot to get stomped in return to secure me victory, then I'll take that for sure.

[Crate123]

The way I see it, without being too negative (god knows I have done that already).
You can include Mulg in pretty much any army, he might not shine in all of them but he is always a dangerous model that at least takes a little attention to kill.
If you buy the Mountain King you NEED the support for him to work properly. He is big AND a dedicated melee monster which means he has to move forward and cant just let the enemy come to him and being on such a big base means he is fairly easy to jam especially if there are obstacles on the table. If you dont babysit the Mountain King you stand a very big chance of losing 20 points and he cant hide from anything anywhere, if you fail to babysit Mulg you have at most lost 12 points and he is much easier to screen.
So its all or nothing with the Mountain King, you cant just chuck him in and hope for the best or he will fail miserably. You kinda have to build the list around him simply because he is so expensive and bulky.

[Varius]

Exactly, so how is he 8 points more than Mulg?

Maybe that is a problem with Mulg more than a problem with the MK?

Or are people expecting they will be as good as their best stuff?

[SOUPlex]

Maybe that is a problem with Mulg more than a problem with the MK?

Or are people expecting they will be as good as their best stuff?

For 8 points more?! I hope to hell he would be. I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

[JacobtheAussie]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned which I believe factors into the difference in damage boxes is Systems. Sure its hard to cripple the movement and cortex but you knocking out an arm or the superstructure will impare how well a Colossal will work The MK may only have 48 health boxes but if it even has one dot remaining it just get two dots healed and its at full operational ability again for another turn.
If a collossal is down to one box it will take more resources to get it up again, and if that last box isn't a cortex it is going to have even more issues due to the Focus mechanic.

From what I remember of the spoilers, it takes 12 damage to knock out the Conquest Superstructure, sure Field Mechanics can fix it but only 12 points in the right spot reduce the capability of that 19 point.
Crit:Amputation you can knock out and arm system with a total of 2 damage on that hit. Thankfully that can only destroy weapon systems and arms or 6 damage in the right sport could virtually one shot a Stormwall.

I could go on about the Focus Vs Fury mechanic but that would be moving away from topic

[katadder]

knocking out the arm will make it harder to hit with that arm but the colossal still generally has 4 guns to use.
you also mention crit amputation but then theres crit catastrophic damage which fills in all the boxs on the last column or spiral hit and this will be far more devastating to gargantuans due to only have the normal 6 spirals (3 of which are shared), suddenly the swamp horror is looking far nastier versus hordes.

thinking of this I may have to get thor steinhammer and a rockram to deal with gargantuans for my cygnar. combined with deadeye that could make for some quickly dead gargantuans.

[Navarp]

Maybe that is a problem with Mulg more than a problem with the MK?

Or are people expecting they will be as good as their best stuff?

Also Mulg isn't our best beast. You don't see Mulg in every list or Trolls with Mulg winning tournaments. He is just the closest thing to the Mountain King in a lot of respects (like their stats . . .)