Field Report: The Siege Animantarax at L&L. It's long but I have pictures.

[Flack Jack]

Greetings and prostrations my fellow Tyrants,

Well I took the ol' girl for a spin in maybe 9 of the 12 games I played over the weekend in the Iron Arena. To put it broadly the only thing holding it back in battle was my inability to remember everything it could do, but this is a problem in casual play in general. So here is my report on it's performance in the field.

In my first game I played against a proxied E-Vyros with the Supply Depot scenario.
Had I remembered to use the SA's gun on the large based objectives I could potentially have blown the thing up for an early victory. Regardless Walking Death on P-Makeda held the line and ensured victory by scenario. The SA itself crumpled to a synergy chain in which Hypnos dealt it 16 points on the charge.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/q.../LL2012007.jpg

In another P-Makeda game the SA ate a charge from a Stormclad controlled by Kraye. This was its shinning moment for me. Between 4 gun shot and all the melee attacks improved under carnage the SA took the Stormclad down to 2 hit boxes. It was a perfect opportunity for a Praetorian to use that often ignored ability to inflict the final 2 points of damage. The game ended in Makeda's assassination.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/q.../LL2012015.jpg

Later with Rasheth I nearly got the assassination on Lord Carver. With Diminish and Plague Wind the SA was able to trade blows with a War Hog. On my following turn I finished the War Hog off with a combined arms effort which cleared a charge lane over a wall which thanks to pathfinder was no problem. 1 pig refused to free strike it after a comrade accidentally gave it a rage token. Bloodmark, a Cannoneer's shot and the clubtail did him in but he passed his tough check. Had I remembered to then shoot him the heavy reiver on top this would have been my game.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/q.../LL2012044.jpg

On Sunday the Siege Animantarax went 'a sieging on the Bunker Defense map vs. Raan. There wasn't much he could do as I deployed it on his weakest flank. As the attacker I got to set up 2nd and go 1st. The SA did very well but 2 turns of brutal shots and Battle Mage power fists took him down. I needed to inflict only a few more points of damage when Brine frenzied and decided the bunker looked a lot less important than a full unit of Houseguard Halberdiers.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/q.../LL2012061.jpg

My second to last game (last with the SA) was a real treat. It was Animantarax on Animantarax. My opponent was a newer player so my PG instincts kicked in and I instructed her on how to flank it with her Bronzeback. Do to the turn order I knew her SA would get the charge should they meet so I threw my brood of 4 Basalisks in the way. The resulting swarm chewed it up at the cost of only 1 drake.
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/q.../LL2012114.jpg

Synopsis: The SA is a fine addition to an army but it was not usually the workhorse. When supported it does very well at distracting opponents from other valuable assets and when it does it gets the rage token you crave. It will continue to see the table for scenario games like the Bunker Battle. I could pretty much see the defender's defficating themselves as it was unrepellable. I enjoyed taking the charge from the Stormclad because I realized I could attack 1st with the spears and then boost the tail for maximum damage output. I also successfully used the gun to take out support models while engaged, namely Targ.

With Makeda I was throwing Defenders Ward on it constantly in addition to a Paralytic Aura from the Krea which Makeda sometime supplied herself. It ate a few alpha strikes and with shrewd use of Hyper Aggressive I could set I up to make one as well. The distraction generally allowed me to put off using Makeda's feat for another turn which was great for attrition.

With Rasheth it was more of a star. It took more damage and it dealt more damage. Being free from the tempting tier list enabled me to use incorporeal arc targets while I still brought and impressive mix of titans to form the SA's backup. Pathfinder and reach do a lot to make up for it's base size and and the reluctance to free-strike it was a nice touch.

On the negative side I refused to take it at games 50 points or less if I saw my opponent had a Colossal. At that level I fealt I could only rely on Titan power to get the job done since burst fire can't hurt them. Although all three of those game were against 3 Nemo who has trouble dealing with Savagery, Side Step and Beatback.

So there you have it. I'm not going to use it with every caster but I found a few I really like it with. I still haven't run it with Xerxis or Hexeris because I only brought painted models, but the tactics with them have already been thouroughly discussed. Believe it or not I may have left out a few details so if any one has any questions I will do my best to answer them.

[PG_TyrantAndrew]

What were your exact lists?

[gaminguy]

First list looked to be PMak, Glad, Drake, Krea, Swordsmen w/UA, Karax, PGs, Animantarax, Swamp Gobbers, an AG or Hakaar, and another model in the lower left that I can't quite make out. There's 46-48 points there already though.

Nice to see it put in a good showing.

[Flack Jack]

The base lists that I ran were as follows. Each was 50 points but as we were encouraged to play games from 35-100 I Sometimes had to add or subtract from them.

P-Mak
Drake
Krea
Gladiator

Extoller
Slaughterhousers
Task Master
Beast Handlers Min
Karax Full
Swordsmen Full+UA
Siege Animantarax
Gobbers
Tyrant Commander

Rasheth*
Drake
Krea
Cannoneer
Gladiator

Bonegrinders Min
Slaughterhousers
Task Master
Beast Handlers Min
Siege Animantarax
Swamp Gobbers
Venator Flayers x2
Void Spirits x2

* In the Siege I believe I took out the Slaughterhousers and Flayers for Rorsh and Brine. I used the remaining point to fill up the PG's and Bonegrinders. This left me 1 point shy.

In the SA on SA matcht I swapped the Gladiator for 2 more toads just for the fun of it.

[Jaradakar]

The trick I learned at L&L:

Hexeris + Siege Animantarax:

1) Hexeris puts up black spot on a juicy unit of infantry
2) Siege Animantarax charges big target.
3) Siege Animantarax shoots range attacks at Black Spot unit, when it kills them, it takes an extra TAIL ATTACK.
4) Kill big target after multiple shooting attacks/black spot bonus tail attacks.

I'm actually excited to put mine together and try him more with Hexeris, also seeing how I need to speed up my play (Death lock was killing me) reducing my own models might help -- hence insert Animantarax.

[Earthcrosser599]

Hexeris + Siege Animantarax:

This seems to be the general problem with the Animantarax; that interaction is not too shabby. It is a bad idea to make such an expensive model suck outside of that 1 combination. That's the sort of thing you should see on $12 solos, not $95 kits.

[Flack Jack]

I knew Black Spot was good but wow. I think I know what caster I'm painting next, sorry Naaresh. If any one else put one on the table please share your results.

[NavyGodzilla]

Hell yeah go Siege Animantarax! I knew some fine folks out there would find uses for the Siege Animantarax. You guys rock.

[Jaradakar]

I agree Earthcorsser599,

Seeing how Hexeris2 + Animantarax came out in the same book it makes sense that they're both designed to work together.

But... for an expensive model you want to be able to use it in multiple lists and I'm not sure it's that viable to do so. I do know of another friend of mine that has tried it in a Xerxis list and they liked it.

[langbenj]

The trick I learned at L&L:

Hexeris + Siege Animantarax:

1) Hexeris puts up black spot on a juicy unit of infantry
2) Siege Animantarax charges big target.
3) Siege Animantarax shoots range attacks at Black Spot unit, when it kills them, it takes an extra TAIL ATTACK.
4) Kill big target after multiple shooting attacks/black spot bonus tail attacks.

I'm actually excited to put mine together and try him more with Hexeris, also seeing how I need to speed up my play (Death lock was killing me) reducing my own models might help -- hence insert Animantarax.

Don't you have to shoot what you're in melee with?

[maynardstardust]

I was very disappointed when I learned that black spot is not played like this. Melee attacks get you and extra melee attack, ranged attacks get you an extra ranged attack. The card is not phrased like this but the infernals ruled it this way.

[Rynth]

I was very disappointed when I learned that black spot is not played like this. Melee attacks get you and extra melee attack, ranged attacks get you an extra ranged attack. The card is not phrased like this but the infernals ruled it this way.

No. Bad. Wrong. Verboten.
If "melee generates melee" was the rule then the Infinity Black Spot + Drag ruling doesn't work(since a melee attack kills it would generate a melee attack by that logic).
The ruling is that Black Spot generates more attacks of the type the models chose for its initial attacks. Since Weapon Platform allows a model to make initial melee and ranged attacks Black Spot can generate either.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...eapon+platform

Don't you have to shoot what you're in melee with?

No. Weapon Platform, unlike Gunfighter, lets the SA shoot at whatever it wants regardless of its own engagement status. Infact shoot what your engaged with is one of the worst options you can choose because the target in melee penalty isn't ignored.

[gaminguy]

I'm convinced that the Black Spot / Weapon Platform interaction is the main reason the SA came out the way it did.

[PG_lord tyrant watt]

The best situation I've had with the SA is this:

Black spot a unit near a heavy.
Charge heavy with tail.
melee attack against black spotted unit with spear and kill.
now make a black spot attack against the heavy with tail.
make third initial with spear against black spotted unit and kill.
Trigger a black spot tail attack against heavy.
declare rapid fire, and shoot into the black spotted unit, kill.
Teigger a black spot tail attack against heavy.
fire again, kill and trigger a black spot tail attack against the heavy.
Rinse and repeat until your out of rapid fire attacks.

You could effectively make 7 tail attacks against the heavy if everything worked to your favor.

[maynardstardust]

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ack-Spot/page2

Here is the opposite ruling saying that melee gets you melee and range gets you range attacks.

I hate how Infernals act as if confusing issues are as straight forward as reading and we are all stupid. Now I don't know which infernal is right.

[muffinman331]

Black Spot can of course work the other way around as well, if you get bogged down by a big infantry unit and don't have a big target in melee. kill a grunt with the tail, buy a shot at a large target that you couldn't get to. kill with a spear, do it again. shoot your initial attacks at infantry and get bonus shots at the big target. in a perfect activation, you could shoot the gun 11 times. (4 rapid fire shots, 4 black spot shots from those initial shots, and 3 black spot shots from melee.)

[Kenton]

The best situation I've had with the SA is this:
You could effectively make 7 tail attacks against the heavy if everything worked to your favor.

You're either rolling badly or that's a really big heavy. Although with the SA you could conceivably get away with salpping more than one such target in a turn this way using big base + reach.

[Rynth]

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ack-Spot/page2

Here is the opposite ruling saying that melee gets you melee and range gets you range attacks.

I hate how Infernals act as if confusing issues are as straight forward as reading and we are all stupid. Now I don't know which infernal is right.

Umm....
The first "ruling" is a post from the Mk1 FAQ. Not applicable.
The first Infernal post is Macallen saying that since the model made a ranged attack its additional attack can be a ranged attack despite a melee attack doing the killing. He does not say melee gets melee.
The second Infernal post is Macallen saying that the additional attacks must be of the same type as the model's initials. That post is linked to in the rules forum post I linked to.

If the ruling was "melee gets melee and ranged gets ranged" then explain how the infinite drag combo works? Shoot, do damage, but don't kill. Drag into melee range. Make a melee attack, kill trigger Black Spot. Use Black Spot to make an additional attack. We know that works, but if melee gets melee was the rule then the Dragger would earn an additional melee attack rather than the ranged attack we know he gets.

[VonGuierren]

Isn't the ruling about Drag special because what it actually states is that, even though you killed with a melee attack, that attack came from Drag, and therefore the initial attack was from a range attack ? So in the end, you get an extra range attack from a range attack. We must not confuse all the rulings about Black Spot with that very specific one.

[Rynth]

How much clearer can it be?

The additional attack you get from Black Spot must be of the same type than the initial attacks.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?12765-Drag-Black-Spot&p=281551&viewfull=1#post281551

... since the initial attack was a ranged attack Black Spot generates a second ranged attack....

Correct...

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?12765-Drag-Black-Spot&p=281812&viewfull=1#post281812

All those links are from maynardstardusts' linked "melee=melee, ranged=ranged" thread.

[gaminguy]

That ruling is about Drag, not Weapon Platform. The ruling there is that your Initial Attack is a ranged attack, so BS generates another ranged attack. Weapon Platform reads that your Initial Attacks include both melee and ranged, so BS can generate either type.

[PG_yaro86ster]

it is about black spot and drag - you make ranged attack which this ranged attack special rule generates melee attack. if you kill with drag you get another range attack.

[onthedownlow]

Didn't want to bog down someone else's thread with this, and wanted to ask the wider community, so posted it as a rules query. Lets see what happens next I guess.

[gaminguy]

It's been posted already, it's the thread Rynth linked in post #12.

[onthedownlow]

Yeah, I saw that - my bad. Anyhow, good to know.

[Jaradakar]

Macallen ruling focuses on the fact that most units have to choose -- Ranged Attack or Melee attack. Once chosen they are typically locked into that type of an attack.

Hence Drag has a special rule that triggers allowing a melee attack in combination with a ranged attack and hence his clarification that because your initial chosen is ranged the black slot bonus attack is also ranged.

That ruling does not apply when you can do both (Weapon Platform) and are allowed to mix and match -- overall it's a different case.

Latest Rules Post regarding Weapon Platform & Black Spot:

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1371560

"We do not generally respond to calling for an infernal ruling, especially when something is actually clear from the rules.

A model can make additional attacks only during its combat action. Each additional attack is a normal attack that can be made with any appropriate weapons the model possesses, including multiple attacks with the same weapon. A ranged weapon cannot make more attacks than its rate of fire (ROF) during a model’s activation, however. Completely resolve each attack before making another attack.

Unless noted otherwise, a model cannot make both melee and ranged attacks in the same combat action.
Weapons Platform is *noted otherwise*."

[Jaradakar]

Removed -- found the latest rules thread that confirms how this works -- I.E. as per my original post about what I learned at Lock and Load was correct!

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1371560

[theHman]

Removed -- found the latest rules thread that confirms how this works -- I.E. as per my original post about what I learned at Lock and Load was correct!

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1371560

That makes the Kraken even better!

[Sanctjud]

That makes the Kraken even better!

Don't mean to hijack, but why is that?
The Kraken is not a weapon platform IIRC.
Kill shot specifically says it procs only once per activation.

Though, the minigun can generate a lot of big cannon shots, but melee can only generate one cannon shot.

[Lambstar]

Sanctjud, I think this means (don't have my books on me to check wording) that a Kraken Kill Shot against a Black Spot target will generate another attack. Now, I don't know if you get another cannon shot or a chain strike, so that's worth looking into.

But yeah, rapid-fire cannon shots with E-Skarre is something I can get behind.

Now, let's get back to our regularly scheduled thread about the SA.

[Rynth]

Sanctjud, I think this means (don't have my books on me to check wording) that a Kraken Kill Shot against a Black Spot target will generate another attack. Now, I don't know if you get another cannon shot or a chain strike, so that's worth looking into.

But yeah, rapid-fire cannon shots with E-Skarre is something I can get behind.

Now, let's get back to our regularly scheduled thread about the SA.

The black spot attack generated from kill shot would be of the same type as the kraken's initial attacks.