Kraye 35pts - SR 2012

[etherya]

Hi guys, what about this list against Hordes? paired with a control list for warmachine in SR 2012.

I'm looking for something smashin' beasts, but I'm not very approved on this, mainly for the caster screening and the luck of infantry removal (but Hordes isn't infantry spam normally).


System: Warmachine
Faction: Cygnar
Casters: 1/1
Points: 35/35
Captain Jeremiah Kraye (*6pts)
* Hunter (6pts)
* Hunter (6pts)
* Centurion (9pts)
* Stormclad (10pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
* Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (2pts)

Reinforcements: Ironclad (7pts)

What's your comment?

[Garath]

This you will not be needing :

* Squire (2pts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
* Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (2pts)

Kraye does nothing for infantry and you CAN play and win without a squire....so I'dtake 2 minuteman.

They fit perfectly in, having short ranged guns for both infantry and solo /light warbeast removal( and they hit things like a dynamic dou) . Very mobile jacks with both light cav move and jump for a foc point.
They can deal with stealth too,since they're using flak field or shooting from 4" away anyway so gun mages aren't really needed for their anti stealth here. Kray has mage sight too.


You mentioned screening , this can be off-set by using ride by attack with Kraye- move 4" forward,cast spells(if any) shoot gun,move back. Same goes for heavies. ž

[Dyoria]

Honestly, I would use the following:

Kraye
-Hunter
-Cyclone
-Stormclad
-Ol'Rowdy
B13
eEiryss

[etherya]

@Garath: Only jacks may be effective against hordes? Minutemans are great enough to manage a full unit? What's your to-go list with him (I see you like it by the avatar!!!).

@Dyoria: Please expand your list with comment or I don't look your side.

Thanks at all!

[jackbnimble218]

I've recently started playing Kraye. And instead of stormclad I've been running gallant. I also bring Harlan versh to feed him focus. Some will say its crazy to run him without Blaize, but it's been working for me. He fills the fast, good MAT heavy jack with reach role for max threat range. And he helps with focus since I use all ranged jacks, except gallant, and cast guided fire every turn and boost damage. He doesn't hit as hard, but he also has shield guard which helps since Kraye is a large base and hard to protect sometimes. It doesn't quite fit your current list unless you want to change a couple things, but it's what I do and it's worked great so far.

[Garath]

My go-to list would be...

Kraye
Hunter
Hunter
Cyclone
Ol'Rowdy
Minuteman
Sentinel/Minuteman
1 or 2 Stormsmiths

Cyclone denies infantry objectives/charges etc. Hunters go after armour. Rowdy is a great jack with Kraye- high ARM,free charge,high MAT,tremor- and counter charge to boot.
Minuteman in pairs (or MM+Sent) can seriously kill a unit of infantry in one turn.

Every model can excel in it's job on it's own- when you start combining them,then it gets tough to deal with them. They are great in pairs. So if you WANT to kill a beast- hit it with BOTH hunters and Cyclone and minuteman.
Your light jacks can do hit and run all the time ,so make use of it!

The list you chose is very solid IMHO- I'd play it - Cent is a keeper - no charges possible against him, holds points - does have a lower mat then I'd like it to have.

I'l be back later...

[Dyoria]

Ok explanation of my list.

Q: Why 1 Hunter and not 2?

Despite the boost that jacks received in MK2, most lists will be slightly imbalanced towards infantry/solos. This has two effects. 1) at the 35 point level, the average list will be 1, maybe 2 heavies and 0-2 light jacks/beasts. (There are some exceptions such as Legion which tend to run beast heavier imho. While 2 hunters is dominating in the early stages of a game, quickly throwing up heavy damage on medium and large sized bases, once those targets die, hunters dont do much. My perspective is to imagine the worst happening in a game. Your stormclad and centurion both get munched. How do you win with 2 hunters and some atgms vs an army? Reducing the number to one means you remove the possibility of only having Hunters left (not as drastic at 50 points mind you) and more importantly, 12 points of hunters constitutes roughly 30% of your list playing hide and seek with the enemy.

Q: Why a Cyclone?
-Because they rock, especially with Kraye. Covering fire is not a ranged attack and can be used with Full Tilt. Also I find the biggest problem I have when playing Kraye is people running fast infantry to lock down your jacks in melee through threat of eating a whack ton of free strikes. Being able to throw a 7.5" wall of auto pow 12 hits between your nimbly pimbly jacks and your opponent's infantry. Also, concentrated POW12s can be an effective assassination vector, depending on your opponent. An enemy caster in the Def 13-15 range with arm 15 to 18 can be killed in a good salvo from a Cyclone (speak from experience). Its always a gamble, but if the possibility presents itself, you can dump 3 focus on a cyclone and cast Guided Fire, giving the Cyclone the 2-4 (usually 3) double boosted attacks. Two handed throws are very useful. And between Ol'Rowdy and a Stormclad, most people will forget/omit to block the cyclone's charge lanes, and it can maul a caster in melee with some focus and especially on a feat turn.

Q: Why Ol'Rowdy?
-For many many reasons. Focus is tight with Kraye, especially when you dont bring a Squire. Free charges on non-feat turns are invaluable. Same with running for free. And then there are some combos. 1) Counter Charge and Pursuit. This is full of LULZ. Something you target with Pursuit moves, you elect to move Ol'Rowdy to within 5" (if you can) and then Counter Charge. Alternatively, you can put Ol'Rowdy in a position where he will be charged by somethign full of focus or empty of fury, he can take the charge and pursuit out of the way, usually to the back arc, eat a free strike (which is better that a charge + a whack of bought attacks) and counter charge to the rear of the enemy model. This allows Ol'Rowdy to a) do damage on your opponents turn and b) avoid the damage of a fresh beast/focus laden jack as they cannot target him in their back arc. (Be wary of 360 field of vision). 2) Full Tilt + Ride By Attack + Tremor Attack. This is an instant LOS generator, for Hunters and the Cyclone. 3) Feat turn and Critical Knockdown. All ironclads knock their targets down on a crit. Problem is, they are hard to come by. With such a high MAT, I find I dont usually waste focus boosting to hit with Ol'Rowdy, so anything that gives him free boosted attacks (affinity with striker, Kraye's feat, Darius' Full Throttle) are awesome. With 3 focus on a feat turn, Ol'Rowdy can charge for free, hit with the quake hammer, boosted damage, knock down the target and autohit, 1 open fist and 3 more quake hammers. Thats enough to pancake a caster, or anything for that matter.

Q: Why stormclad?
-I have been debating this for a while. The POW 19 and reach seem like the only reasons. It has a gun, so it can get some synergy with guided fire, but honestly, when is it going to be close enough to shoot and not be engaged.? Eleaps are bonus. It wont be generating free focus as your not taking stormblades.
Alternates would be:
Gallant (theory - but soon to be tested, as I write this I really want to try him now) - Sure a slight dip in POW, but I think more than makes up for it with more useful abilities than the stormclad. Shield Guard is usefull to an extent, despite it's nerfing. But I think the best bonus is the increased Defense. And its easier to find 2 points to throw in Harlan than 8 points to get some SBs to generate extra focus.

Centurion: Classic combo with Kraye. Spd 4 not that big an issue with Full Tilt. It can also make use of the Polarity Shield while under the influence of full tilt. This makes it a great defenseive piece for blocking charge routes and especially on a feet turn where a crit means all the subsequent attacks with the spear will auto hit.

Avenger (theory): Definite synergy between Kraye and the Avenger in that on a shooting turn where you arent harrying off infantry, guided fire will be beneficial. The Seismic Cannon's Quake Rounds are vicious, especially when they directly hit. Stall sword is also fun, especially when you consider that Kraye is all about board control.

Q: Why B13?
-Why not? They are quick, independent (need little caster support) can fire beacon, can mage storm, can put a dent in most infantry units, can hold the line in melee if you are desperate, can throw some damage on a caster, and can hunt solos.

Q: Why eEiryss?
-No other model sets up an assassination run like eEirys. No other model will control the table to the same extent. People move out of her way due to Technological Interference. She also wipes upkeeps, which nothing else you have does.

For the last point left over if you swap out the stormclad for one of the above options, I think the best bet would be to throw in a storm smith. Another plinker for solos, as well as another source of disruption to hit stunned or knocked down jacks.

I think this is enough for now. Gotta head home.

[Garath]

Most things you state here are true except one thing- the hunter

Try seeing it my way- good things come in pairs!!!

Hunter vs Hordes

Unlike WM armies,hordes have a better boost mechanism then WM...not only beasts CAN boost things same time the warlock casts spells- it's mandatory.
In WM ,on the other hand it's one OR the other. They depend on the beasts creating fury for them- and this is stating the obvious.

Hunters in a Kraye list could be looked upon like our mini version of anti hordes eiryss...

How?

Well let's say you go second,AD both and shoot a beast on turn one with both...light beast or heavy if no light presents itself...this thing barring some serious healing is almost dead meat by turn 2-3.... in effect you're not only killing a model,you are also depriving the warlock a transfer target,fury vault- you get the picture

Furthermore

Hunter in a Kraye list in general is a great piece. It can do yo-yo attcks hopping out and in woods safe from attacks. It has parry,so nothing can tie it up.
Each hunter has extended ctrl,and will be allocate a foc each turn- and boy do they go far and deep into enemy ground!
They are cav,and have +2 charge attack rolls- if you happen to run into a solo on your way- charge it- hunter is still a jack and POW 11 boosted will kill 90% of solos in this game.

On the feat turn ,hunter usually slam something- with 3d6 to hit you can get very creative. A list with both Cent and Cyclone and 2 hunters will not struggle destroying all enemy heavies - and Cyclone can stop most other targets

[Vakdaron]

How about using the Hammersmith instead of the Stormclad? I have always avoided using Centurion and Hammersmith together because I don't like the idea of having two jacks with speed 4 but if you can manage to cast Pursuit, I guess it won't be a problem. Hammersmith offers 2 pow17 plus another pow17 that knocks down followed by a possible collateral of 12 if you hit on both initials instead of a pow19 and pow14 for the Stormclad. I know his mat is lower but since the list is to go against heavies it shouldn't be a problem especially on feat turn or if you attack something knocked down by Ol'rowdy. Plus he adds some interesting movement while hitting.

[etherya]

cut

What about an anti-HORDES list? eEiryss isn't a good model for this purpose and maybe list must change.

Something like

System: Warmachine
Faction: Cygnar
Casters: 1/1
Points: 35/35
Captain Jeremiah Kraye (*6pts)
* Hunter (6pts)
* Hunter (6pts)
* Centurion (9pts)
* Cyclone (9pts)
* Ol' Rowdy (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)

On the paper it can manage very well big targets and lighter, but so-so against infantry.

This have enought anti-infantry models but lucks maybe against a second heavy

System: Warmachine
Faction: Cygnar
Casters: 1/1
Points: 35/35
Captain Jeremiah Kraye (*6pts)
* Hunter (6pts)
* Hunter (6pts)
* Minuteman (5pts)
* Minuteman (5pts)
* Cyclone (9pts)
* Stormclad (10pts)

Thoughts?

[Garath]

The first list is stronger,but the second will perform easier in real play-it has less issues with foc. Second list is also shootier.
If going anti hordes- second list.

[etherya]

One melee heavy is enough to wreck the melee beasts?

[Garath]

Think so..depends on what you need to kill and - Hunters and 2 minuteman can kill a heavy beast. Cyclone delays inf in the meantime ,and stormclad kills the other heavy...

Providing you're not playing against lists with 3-4 heavies in 35 pts ( E doomshaper comes to mind )- even then...pop feat and charge/slam with everything.

Against beast heavy armies,use the feat to kill off a lot of beats ( 3 is what you're aiming for )...don't wait for the caster kill

[etherya]

Final Thoughts, I've skypped this tourney but I really want to try:

System: Warmachine
Faction: Cygnar
Casters: 1/1
Points: 35/35
Captain Jeremiah Kraye (*6pts)
* Hunter (6pts)
* Hunter (6pts)
* Cyclone (9pts)
* Ironclad (7pts)
* Ironclad (7pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team (4pts)

An Ironclad can be "sacrificable target" the second can be effective in later game and Hunters go wild. Cyclone manage infantry with Black 13th and cover LOS abuse on Kraye. Squire as always.

[Garath]

The first iroclad can jack bullet to kill a heavy early on, then use the second as a possible game finisher!

[LordCommaderCavanaugh]

@etherya

Is the cyclone there for two handed throws or covering fire or weapon locks or what? I am just wondering.

If the cyclone is dropped then a centurion can replace that cyclone with a centurion or Ol' Rowdy for counter charge, which is always fun. Full tilt centurion charges are really nice. I have used those more than once to win games.

If not Ol'Rowdy or a centurion then certainly a minuteman to help get rid of infantry, i.e. trolls and cryx and even menoth to some extent. Two POW 14 shots are still going to be good against light beasts and light jacks. Being able to move back out after jumping in under Kraye is super valuable.

[jking_3rd]

To OP,

Since you specify going against Hordes in the SR format, I agree with a previous statement, in that bringing 9pt Gallant & Harlan for an extra 2pt, would be better suited vs Hordes. There are quite a few enemy spells that both Harlan & Gallant could help with. Harlan is also stealth, and Gallant is almost as good as a Stormclad, while being fairly supportive of Kraye's abilities & weakness at the exchange of eLeap & base DMG.

The best way I've found of dealing with Hordes is to put as much damage as possible on the enemy warlock and hope they transfer the damage directly past the horrible ARM buffs & regeneration and other various healing effects of their beasts. And if you want to kill or neuter their beasts, go after the infantry resposible for helping. And there will be plenty. Minuteman the best tool for this job. And B13 can certainly help.

My recommended 35pt list is as follows:
Kraye
- Gallant
- Ironclad
- Hunters x2
- Minuteman
Black 13
Gormon di Wolfe
Harlan Vash

Reasoning & tactics:
The Ironclad has 2 main jobs. 1st its my china shop bull. It should be moving forward steadily under Full Tilt or charge to *Tremor things & knock them down. That way Harlan can get his Quadiron 4x shots off. Woot for Purgation & Blessed. Ryan should be dropping her cloud on spag-infantry that best benefits Kraye. While Lynch & Watts deal w/ other solos &UAs. The Hunters put the hurt on from Kraye's flank opposite the IC & Harlan. Gallant should be between Harlan & Kraye when possible to use shield guard. I also tend to keep Ryan towards center field & near Gallant as well. Minuteman is usually under Full Tilt so get the most of his infantry killing Flak Field that doesn't count as a ranged attack.

;-)

My typical deployment is Hunters on flank, followed by Ryan, Kraye, Gallant, & Harlan. The IC, Gorman, Lynch, & Watts are on the other flank.

Hunters & Minuteman should be getting 1 Focus each. Full Tilt should probably start on MM, since he may not live too long if he's hunting support solos. But it should definitely get onto IC before you engage to help make the most of army's ranged attacks. KD targets are def 5. Lynch can remove stealth or Kraye should have enough focus to cast Mage Sight for battlegroup.

And as always, don't forget to use ALL Kraye's cavalry abilities. +2 on charge attacks. Declare Ride-by attack often, b/c you get to use all your movement. Try for Impact Attacks w/ your heavy charges. Use Ryan's Magestorm & Tremor defensively to keep your enemy from charging you.

[jking_3rd]

Ran this list tonight against Trolls, Protectorate, & Cygnar. The results were not impressive.

Vs Trolls was win by scenario.

Vs PoM, defeat by caster kill.

Vs Cygnar, defeat by scenario.

Hunters were MVPs all 3 games. Overall, Gallant was a bit of a disappointment. The Shield wall came into effect quite often, but Gallant's overall melee effectiveness was subpar, and the most damage he was capable of came during a feat slam w/ collateral dmg. Infantry was also an issue as the MM's Flak field was not as effective as Cyclone Covering Fire for detering charges & general board control. But I had a great moment when my MM under Full Tilt ran up.into pEyris' face turn 1 (lost initiative). I also still feel that Harlan is a necessary model, but he definitely had trouble keeping up w/ a FT Gallant.

I'm going to try switching out Gallant for:
1) Hunter #3 & Finn
2) Arlan & IC #2
3) Cyclone

[etherya]

Thanks for your report, tomorrow I'm going to test my list and I'll write about it.