35 pSevvy - Can he run as a jack caster?

[Crimzzen]

Hey everyone,

Thinking of this as my 35 pSevvy list for an upcoming event. I don't have an arc node (I fit it in at 50). Thoughts?

Psevvy +6
*Reckoner -8
*Reckoner -8

Min Choir -2
Exemplar Errants + UA -10
Vassal -2
Vassal -2
Aiyana and Hold -4
eEiryss -3
Menofixer -1
Wracks -1

Do you think I need to fit in a node? Any other suggestions? Aiyanna and Holt + EoM + Choir put the reckoners gun at Pow 18 and his club at P+S 22. Or help the errants out.


EDIT:
Would this be a good supporting list for pSevvy if someones playing heavy infantry? (keeping pSevvy with the 2 reckoners).

Harby +5
Reckoner -8
Vanquisher -8

Choir (min) -2
Errants + UA -10
Vassal -2
Vassal -2
Zealots + UA -8

[Alzer]

Two jacks at 35 is hardly jack-heavy for Protectorate at 35pts. I run 2-3 on Vindictus in 35pts without stretching focus too much.

For pSevv if you don't spell-sling you could probably run 4 jacks at 35pts without an issue. Wracks, Reclaimer, Choir, Vassals will keep you goin on them. In that case make sure you have a Vanquisher and either a Repenter or Redeemer to clear infantry for you.

I think the list is fine as-is. eEirss and the Wracks could be dropped for a Repenter if you want to run more jacks. It would give you an up against infantry which you may struggle against since this is such a shooting-heavy list with no aoes or sprays.

[Crimzzen]

Two jacks at 35 is hardly jack-heavy for Protectorate at 35pts. I run 2-3 on Vindictus in 35pts without stretching focus too much.

For pSevv if you don't spell-sling you could probably run 4 jacks at 35pts without an issue. Wracks, Reclaimer, Choir, Vassals will keep you goin on them. In that case make sure you have a Vanquisher and either a Repenter or Redeemer to clear infantry for you.

I think the list is fine as-is. eEirss and the Wracks could be dropped for a Repenter if you want to run more jacks. It would give you an up against infantry which you may struggle against since this is such a shooting-heavy list with no aoes or sprays.

Hmmm, a repenter is a good idea. Although in a pinch couldn't I A2A something that's gotten too close? Or is something close to sevvy, a dead sevvy? Maybe a heirophant would be a good idea for 2" of spell range...

[Alzer]

Anything within 12" of Sevvy is something you don't want. Even boosted range from a Heirophant for A2A is unnaceptable in my book. Don't rely on just A2A to clear infantry if you don't have Blessing with him. (Or at the very least a Revenger).

The two vanquishers dishing out that kind of hurt sounds pretty awesome to me though. Hand a focus to each one and just punish things.

[Crimzzen]

Anything within 12" of Sevvy is something you don't want. Even boosted range from a Heirophant for A2A is unnaceptable in my book. Don't rely on just A2A to clear infantry if you don't have Blessing with him. (Or at the very least a Revenger).

The two vanquishers dishing out that kind of hurt sounds pretty awesome to me though. Hand a focus to each one and just punish things.

Hmm, PoW 19 gun you say :P. How does menoth deal with MHSF?

[Alzer]

* Meant to say Reckoners, not Vanquishers for that. A vanquisher swapped for one of the Reckoners wouldn't be a bad move though. They absolutely punish infantry.

Haven't faced MHSF yet. I JUST had a guy in my meta start Ret last week and he hasn't picked them up yet to my knowledge.

[Crimzzen]

Yeah, the POW 18 reckoner with a 20" threat range (assault) seems like game ending in a few cases, especially when eEyriss shoots off your focus. 2 focus, one to boost hit and one to boost dmg. Reckoner with choir and EoM is also Rat 8 on the move :P, 10 if he can aim. I guess if I play a MHSF I look for that vector and keep singing no shooting on the jacks until I can do it.

[Wulfy]

Reckoners are not great clearing infantry, and pSevvy isn't great without a node. I say you need to trade a Reckoner for a Vanquisher and squeeze in BoV. Vanquishers have a bigger gun than reckoners, though you lose some range, but the damage a vanquisher shells out makes it a great jack.

BoV is very durable, and players know how big a threat it is with Sevvy, so there is no reason not to take it. Running BoV, get him within 10" of a target within 5" of a warcaster. That is a 25" threat range for arching a boostable spell. Then if they want to hit BoV they have to have reach or use a special attack or he gets away.

A&H are nice, but BoV gives you a +2 damage on a spell every round! Give up A&H, Eyriss, wracks and take BoV and a herophant.

I think two Reckoners is massive and play it all the time, but in my opinion the Reckoner, Vanquisher, BoV, is a more balanced and deadlier combo.

[Crimzzen]

Reckoners are not great clearing infantry, and pSevvy isn't great without a node. I say you need to trade a Reckoner for a Vanquisher and squeeze in BoV. Vanquishers have a bigger gun than reckoners, though you lose some range, but the damage a vanquisher shells out makes it a great jack.

BoV is very durable, and players know how big a threat it is with Sevvy, so there is no reason not to take it. Running BoV, get him within 10" of a target within 5" of a warcaster. That is a 25" threat range for arching a boostable spell. Then if they want to hit BoV they have to have reach or use a special attack or he gets away.

A&H are nice, but BoV gives you a +2 damage on a spell every round! Give up A&H, Eyriss, wracks and take BoV and a herophant.

I think two Reckoners is massive and play it all the time, but in my opinion the Reckoner, Vanquisher, BoV, is a more balanced and deadlier combo.

Hmmm, more great advice. I like the vanquisher quite a bit but I struggle with his range. Range 10 on speed 5 without assault is 6" less than the reckoners at the extreme. The plate is nice though! I'm thinking a repenter could do the same thing though at clearing infantry.

[Alzer]

You would be veeery wrong about the Repenter adding up to the Vanquisher in anti-infantry power.

Also don't think of it as Spd 4 with a 10" range. Think of it as SPD 4 with 10" range and two shots. Or Spd 8 with 10" range and 1 shot. Vanquishers are 10pts after all.

4" AoE with pow 9 blast damage and continuous fire is one of the strongests anti-infantry attack in the game.

My vanquisher has performed well in every game I've taken it. Don't be afraid to throw it into an enemy heavy or unit of medium-based infantry either when it's time to smash things. That flail still hurts.

[Crimzzen]

You would be veeery wrong about the Repenter adding up to the Vanquisher in anti-infantry power.

Also don't think of it as Spd 4 with a 10" range. Think of it as SPD 4 with 10" range and two shots. Or Spd 8 with 10" range and 1 shot. Vanquishers are 10pts after all.

4" AoE with pow 9 blast damage and continuous fire is one of the strongests anti-infantry attack in the game.

My vanquisher has performed well in every game I've taken it. Don't be afraid to throw it into an enemy heavy or unit of medium-based infantry either when it's time to smash things. That flail still hurts.

I guess with the errants, holt, & eEiryss I'm not really afraid of most single wound infantry that can be shot. Absolute worst case I still have 4 shots from the reckoners. Its the stuff that's also immune to blast dmg that worry me... Like MHSF /w artificer or rahn, satyxis, ec who can/will screw up menoth casters if/when they get into range.

[Alzer]

That's why the vanquisher is so great. The continuous fire still hits models that are immune to blast damge

I should also add a disclaimer here. Vanquisher works well for me. Repenter I struggle with. But some people LOVE their Repenters due to the spray going through everything and being able to hit casters. I just have hellish luck with them. Perhaps fielding 2 instead of 1 vanquisher would work, and be more "jack heavy" Also with choir boost and EoM they're effectively Rat 8 Pow 15 sprays, which hurts just about everythign and gives you a very viable assassination vector if you can give it a focus and get it within 8" of their caster, regardless of what's in the way.

[Wulfy]

If you read battle reports or watch games with vanquishers, you will see the fire kills far more infantry than the actual hit. You shoot the MHSF knowing you will not kill them with the blast damage, but will set them on fire. Wait for a warcaster to hide behind a jack about 18" away. Run the Vanquisher, then ancilary attack the jack setting the warcaster on fire. They hate that. 10" is usually far enough away to keep out of most charges as well. excellent turn one or turn two tactic. And there is nothing that says your vanquisher cannot move backwards next turn before it fires again.

Play a few games just trying to set stuff on fire and you will see the importance. I think Vanquishers with vassals have earned far more points for me than Reckoners with vassals.

[Crimzzen]

If you read battle reports or watch games with vanquishers, you will see the fire kills far more infantry than the actual hit. You shoot the MHSF knowing you will not kill them with the blast damage, but will set them on fire. Wait for a warcaster to hide behind a jack about 18" away. Run the Vanquisher, then ancilary attack the jack setting the warcaster on fire. They hate that. 10" is usually far enough away to keep out of most charges as well. excellent turn one or turn two tactic. And there is nothing that says your vanquisher cannot move backwards next turn before it fires again.

Play a few games just trying to set stuff on fire and you will see the importance. I think Vanquishers with vassals have earned far more points for me than Reckoners with vassals.

I guess I'm having issues seeing how the 4" AOE kills much? I played ravagores quite a bit and I realize its only an inch less but I was only getting 2 models usually. And once the units lost 2-3 guys then your only getting 1 at most. Even then, fire goes out 1/3 times. I think I just need to try it and see for myself though, as right now i'm just theorizing.

The reckoner can also set casters on fire with a crit, which is likely on 3 dice, especially with 2 of em. I also like the ashen veil buff and the flare debuff.

[Spartan31337]

I guess I'm having issues seeing how the 4" AOE kills much? I played ravagores quite a bit and I realize its only an inch less but I was only getting 2 models usually. And once the units lost 2-3 guys then your only getting 1 at most. Even then, fire goes out 1/3 times. I think I just need to try it and see for myself though, as right now i'm just theorizing.

The reckoner can also set casters on fire with a crit, which is likely on 3 dice, especially with 2 of em. I also like the ashen veil buff and the flare debuff.

i would certainly suggest trying it for yourself. the vanquisher has several large advantages to the repenter:
1. focus efficiency. for that spray, you have to hit everything under it for maximum effectiveness, and sometimes this will require boosting. for the vanquisher, i may give it one focus first turn to run it, then none for the majority of the rest of hte game (i usually only give it focus if i think i will get into combat with another heavy). i am not worried about boosting to hit/damage with it, as if you miss, you will still typically catch things under the template (there is a big difference between 3" and 4" in my experience - even if people spread out their units, usually you can pick a target to get 3 or so models, and if they are spreading out their units, then you are dictating how they move which is also a good thing), and they will be lit on fire. yes, it has a 33% chance of going out, but that means 2 out of every 3 guys will be killed or at least damaged. plus with a vassal you can get two shots, and 2 4" autofire templates where i don't really care if i hit or not is better than 2 sprays that everything under the spray has to hit to cause the fire.
2. better armor
3. can take on other heavies - under pSevy, its flail swings at PS 19, which is capable of bringing down other heavy jacks/beasts in one turn. i don't bring it with this in mind, and try to get it into combat only if i don't have any good infantry targets, but the option is nice.

all around, the reckoner is a better jack, but i think that in most cases one of each is better than 2 of the same. there are exceptions (i bring 2 vanqs under efeora and 2 recks under harby), but the combination of the two is very good (reck for solos and vanq for troops). they compliment each other well.

as to the reckoner setting casters on fire with its crit:fire, it isn't exactly a sure thing (i think around 40% chance with three dice?), whereas the vanq will do it every single time if the caster is under the template. auto > crit. i consider crit abilities a nice bonus, but try not to rely on them.

[Crimzzen]

i would certainly suggest trying it for yourself. the vanquisher has several large advantages to the repenter:
1. focus efficiency. for that spray, you have to hit everything under it for maximum effectiveness, and sometimes this will require boosting. for the vanquisher, i may give it one focus first turn to run it, then none for the majority of the rest of hte game (i usually only give it focus if i think i will get into combat with another heavy). i am not worried about boosting to hit/damage with it, as if you miss, you will still typically catch things under the template (there is a big difference between 3" and 4" in my experience - even if people spread out their units, usually you can pick a target to get 3 or so models, and if they are spreading out their units, then you are dictating how they move which is also a good thing), and they will be lit on fire. yes, it has a 33% chance of going out, but that means 2 out of every 3 guys will be killed or at least damaged. plus with a vassal you can get two shots, and 2 4" autofire templates where i don't really care if i hit or not is better than 2 sprays that everything under the spray has to hit to cause the fire.
2. better armor
3. can take on other heavies - under pSevy, its flail swings at PS 19, which is capable of bringing down other heavy jacks/beasts in one turn. i don't bring it with this in mind, and try to get it into combat only if i don't have any good infantry targets, but the option is nice.

all around, the reckoner is a better jack, but i think that in most cases one of each is better than 2 of the same. there are exceptions (i bring 2 vanqs under efeora and 2 recks under harby), but the combination of the two is very good (reck for solos and vanq for troops). they compliment each other well.

as to the reckoner setting casters on fire with its crit:fire, it isn't exactly a sure thing (i think around 40% chance with three dice?), whereas the vanq will do it every single time if the caster is under the template. auto > crit. i consider crit abilities a nice bonus, but try not to rely on them.

Hmmm, great arguements. With a vassal I can see the merrit of 2 AoE 4s... I'll throw one into my list.

[Crimzzen]

Would this be a good supporting list for pSevvy if someones playing heavy infantry? (keeping pSevvy with the 2 reckoners).

Harby +5
Reckoner -8
Vanquisher -8

Choir (min) -2
Errants + UA -10
Vassal -2
Vassal -2
Zealots + UA -8

[Kyria]

I know I'm just a newb, but something that's been jumping out at me as a potential use that I've not seen suggested/mentioned in any threads...

Vilmon + Repenters.
He can lock in combat, go immune to non-magic, and then you can spray and blast away to your hearts content without fear of hurting him while he keeps whatever he's enguaged with locked in (cause nobody wants to disenguage a P+S15 Weapon master :P)

Throw in more Paladins and Repenters to repeat in multiple areas, as Vilmon is giving all Paladins the same thing.