Trencher (Pseudo) Deathstar?

[Joasht]

I'm aware Trenchers are a rather common topic, but I've been thinking about this a little bit. Heck, even got the models (mostly second hand for cheap) but haven't gotten around to painting and putting them on the table as I've been "distracted" by the Motherland.

I'm going to go about spilling some of my thoughts, and I'm hoping you guys would be able to help me brainstorm a little bit more. I want to make these guys work to their best of their ability, but I can't quite place how I want to achieve that yet.

Basically, the pseudo-Deathstar is the min unit + UA + 3WA + Finn. Its a total of 14 points for 12 models; a slightly lackluster parallel to the WG Deathstar, which in itself is 13 points for 16 models.

Thing is, you can't quite play it like the WG DS; they aren't a high-DEF tarpit that happens to hit hard with incredible accuracy, and frankly the only parallel I can barely draw between them is the whole "unit + solo" thing they have going, their preference for ranged combat and the nearly identical point costs. I do wish that this thread doesn't become a "WG vs Trenchers" discussion, as I never intended for it to be that way...

The main thing they have going for them defensively with the UA (in fact, the main reason I'd take the UA) is Cautious Advance, which when coupled with Desperate Pace and AD gives them an incredible 24" into the table (10" deployment + 6" AD + 8" move) for a total of 34" threat with their guns. And while they are in this position, they become high-DEF, blast-immune targets against shooting.

It seems like the main application of the rather awesome speed is to get into a key position early on, and force your opponent to get to them while mercilessly shooting them - kinda what you'd expect Trenchers to literally do. Trenchers aren't terrible shots either with their POW 11 guns and numerous ways to gain attack bonuses (Finn, Deadeye, Rangers, etc.). So this leads me to three other points:

1) So now that you have them holding a key position, then what? How do you capitalize on having possibly dictated where your opponent needs to be? Do I hold my force in position ready to counterattack? Or use them as a feint/bait to lure them aside? This would probably be dictated by several variables (your list, what you are facing, the scenario, etc.) but what would you guys think of trying?

2) Which warcaster? I'm thinking someone like pHaley would be great with them; Deadeye and her Feat give them better effectiveness, and TB does aid their accuracy. Alternatively, someone with Snipe like pStryker/pCaine.

3) Additional support? Ranging from Black 13th to counter Stealth, to Rhupert to give them Tough.

So those are my thoughts. Its a little messy, but I hope you guys could perhaps chime in on some of your opinions and perhaps even experience running this. I love the Trencher models (heck, Finn is probably my favourite Cygnar model in the game!) and want to see them do well.

Thanks!

[PG_cheddercaveman]

I feel like the Cygnar version of the "deathstar" is actually the Stormblades. Stormblades + 3 WA + UA and then adding either Rhupert and/or Journeyman Warcaster

[Joasht]

I feel like the Cygnar version of the "deathstar" is actually the Stormblades. Stormblades + 3 WA + UA and then adding either Rhupert and/or Journeyman Warcaster

Yes, hence why I added the term "pseudo" since its not quite the deathstar, but I felt that somehow in my head its nature as a shooty/stubborn-to-remove unit had some parallels to the Winterguard Deathstar.

To be honest I really want to talk about Trenchers in this thread, so I'm not keen on suddenly derailing it into a talk about Stormblades. Lets try to keep on topic

[PG_GrimmRiggins]

The trouble with running a Trencher Deathstar is that the Trenchers (despite their fluff and rules) really don't like to be on the front lines. I find the key to getting use out of them is to play them like they're actually worth 6/10--i.e. protect them. You can't throw them away to gum up the works like you can with Winterguard; the point investment is just too high. Temporal Barrier is great, so is Polarity Field; anything that gives them some charge immunity. Of course a cheaper unit can be used--personally, I like Precursor Knights or Sword Knights. I'm also a fan of the Cyclone+B13 module to deny ~12" of board to infantry--just make sure you put down Ryan's cloud effect after you activate your Trenchers.

CRA is a valuable ability, and Trenchers certainly have a massive threat range for it. You just have to make sure that the retaliation isn't greater than the damage inflicted. Finding that sweet spot can be a challenge.

For me, a typical 35 point list that features Trenchers for their shooting power looks something like this:

Lieutenant Alister Caine (+6)
--Ironclad (7)
--Cyclone (9)
Max Trenchers (10)
--UA (3)
Captain Maxwell Finn (3)
Min Precursors (5)
--UA (2)
Rhupert Carvolo (2)

Sometimes I drop Carvolo and Finn and add B13 and Reinholdt.

The basic Premise is to deploy the Trenchers regularly, behind the PK's. The army advances as a spell-proof, largely AOE proof, charge resistant brick. The Trenchers pump out high accuracy CRA's while the covering fire templates and the PK's keep engaging models at bay. Caine mostly plays support until it's time to pop feat and clear off infantry. The Ironclad hangs in reserve, sort of a mean left hook waiting to trounce whatever gets through.

I've played this list (or something similar) many times. I'd estimate that 50% of them end with a CRA into the opposing caster's face. If you protect your Trenchers, they'll perform well, since their Cautious Advance keeps them safe from stuff that would hose ATGM's and Long Gunners. If you hang them out there to die, you'd better have a good plan for the rest of your army. I suppose if you can inflict enough damage with shooting before they get countercharged, that's a start. I've never had particularly good Luck trying to do that, however.

[Joasht]

Thanks for the reply, a most helpful post!

Haha to be honest I doubt they'd ever be able to "inflict enough damage with shooting before they get countercharged" either.
I'm excited to put them on the table, perhaps I'll get to use them this weekend...

[H'lingus]

Might work with p stryker as they have some survivability and Access to snipe.

[Gavriel]

The problem with the whole "cautious advance 24 inches up the board and dig in" approach is that the low range on trencher guns makes them easy targets to simply run into melee with using high def infantry. Daughters, Kayazi, TFG, and other infantry that can easily get to def 15 and higher give trenchers fits once they've made it to melee, and given that they all run further than trenchers can shoot, it makes it hard to actually do anything about it.

[Edwars]

This is true which is why I generally advocate casters with snipe.

Prime Stryker, Cain and Haley are all good options

My personal preference is for Cain, snipe plus dead eye equals some crazy good first blood shooting from across the board.

[Joasht]

Indeed. Thats why I was thinking that you need to put them with either a warcaster that helps them with the situation (be it Snipe or TB for example) and/or put something there that would punish them for coming near.

[Edwars]

A couple of chain guns or a cyclone will help with the engaging problem trenchers have.

Place them behind the trenchers and place covering fire templates in front

[Joasht]

A couple of chain guns or a cyclone will help with the engaging problem trenchers have.

Place them behind the trenchers and place covering fire templates in front

Yeah, this is probably one of the situations where that relatively short-ranged chaingun's covering fire would come in handy, since you know precisely where you need to go anyway. Plus if you do the math, its just nicely in front of your Trenchers after they move on Turn 1 haha.

[AaronB13F]

No one ever thinks it's f*#%ing crazy that in this game A person can run faster and farther than a round can go from a weapon/gun/rifle/cannon? It Boggles my mind, i mean i get it! I get the whole Balance thing, but i am still trying to figure out why they dropped the range of weapons from MK1 to MK2. Or am i Mistaken? Maybe i just remember sniping my LGs for 6....That must be it. I can never find all the changed they made from MK 1 to 2.

I have to agree that the biggest problem is people just gummin your trenchers up with high DEF Runners, Though yes if you can put Covering Fire templates in front of them, then that would be a whole lot different. Still though, i keep seeing threads about people wanting to make Trenchers good, and while they ARE good, they just really don't seem like front line guys. I'm sure PP has a reason for it, and perhaps they will get a buff later on?

[Edwars]

No one ever thinks it's f*#%ing crazy that in this game A person can run faster and farther than a round can go from a weapon/gun/rifle/cannon? It Boggles my mind, i mean i get it! I get the whole Balance thing, but i am still trying to figure out why they dropped the range of weapons from MK1 to MK2. Or am i Mistaken? Maybe i just remember sniping my LGs for 6....That must be it. I can never find all the changed they made from MK 1 to 2.

I have to agree that the biggest problem is people just gummin your trenchers up with high DEF Runners, Though yes if you can put Covering Fire templates in front of them, then that would be a whole lot different. Still though, i keep seeing threads about people wanting to make Trenchers good, and while they ARE good, they just really don't seem like front line guys. I'm sure PP has a reason for it, and perhaps they will get a buff later on?

This is a game about giant magical robots, angry elves, beardless dwarfs, smart trolls, etc, etc.

Do you really expect total realism?

Back to trenches and trencher tactics.....

As has been said many times on the forum, the biggest problem for the trenches is that they are not a dedicated roll unit. They either pop smoke for LoS issues, shoot or attack in melee. All things they do well, but not things they excell at.

IF you plan around their design they are a good unit, but like many units they require support.

Chain gunners and cyclones place templates to protect from high def, single wound infantry.

Spells (upkeeps or not) can be used to mitigate problems or enhance their strengths. Snipe improves their range, blur/arcane shield improve their survivability, etc

Also, trenchers may have problems hitting high def targets. Enter Finn, dead eye, positive charge, etc


Personally I'm a trenchers fan, but not everyone is. Play what you like, make it work for you.

[AaronB13F]

Lol No but i expect a Projectile to move faster and farther than a man can run lol....I'm just saying it's ridiculous, but i get that it's part of the balance. Just a weird balance is all. I understand people don't like to get shot at while moving up their stuff to get into melee, but do the Shooters like to have guys run into melee with them from outside their range of their weapons xD? That's the crazy part.

I don't really care that much it's just a funny point. I still play the game obviously!

[Edwars]

No worries.

When stuff like that pops up I generally go with "magic did it" in my best General Disarray voice.

[Garath]

On the contrary - I'd run then with pHaley ,pStryker or pCaine on point. Gutsy,in yo face attitude is what it's all about.
All 3 casters have a way of insuring you can alpha strike the opposition and not the other way around.

With pHaley you can cast deadeye on them and Temporal barrier ,combined with Finn's inspiring thingie +2 .... effective RAT 5 +2 TB +2 Finn= RAT 9 with 3 d6 to hit....
Using assault you can shoot even if they don't reach their target(which they will with desperate pace if needed) they get to shoot.
Running into combat with them in case they don't reach their target isn't an option either Kazayah have DEF 15+ 4 for being in combat - so RAT 9 +2 aiming + 3d6 to hit equals a hit roll of 21 on average. Finn activates first then, uses Trasher and kills at least one guy freeing a trencher to shoot- then you can daisy chain shoot with all of them providing most hit- and they probably will
This can be offset with Iron flesh tho..

Caine and Stryker give them the exact same combo as above except both provide +4" range- for a total threat of move 6",range 10"+snipe 4"= 20" threat...

Running into combat with these guys is a no-can-do. Caine gives them Dead eye too...


So ,that's the way I used them back in the day- I might give them a spin...

Here's a taught:

Trencher + UA +3x WA
Trencher commandos min
Finn
Ruphert
pHaley


Back in MK1 ...AD these guys and popping feat early on ,combined with 2 hunters was called


Haley suckerpuch!!!

Ah...fun times

[AaronB13F]

Who or what did you Haley Suckerpunch?

And thanks for pointing out the daisy chain effect That's really quite useful!

It's funny how things and tactics makes more sense when someone shows you.

[shaner]

I am of the opinion that pStryker or pHaley would be super duper with them. First, Haley can prevent units/beasts charging the trenchers...thus allowing them to get off a second shot or an assault on their own. Utilizing covering fire would also be a great asset. The ability to put AS on them would definitely help. Stryker can make them have some super armour with AS and his feat...and snipe would surely help them get a second shot off.

All things aside, they will be a difficult and challenging unit to use. If you are into the power-gaming aspect of our hobby, then Trenchers may not be the best unit to employ. I still think they can be darn effective with the correct set-up and using the correct timing.

Now that I think about it, I think having rangers in a list with trenchers could be useful as well...particularly if you are using a caster that does not provide a RAT / Hit buff.

Edit...

Against WarMachine, Trenchers may be useful. Against beast heavy Hordes armies, they are at a disadvantage IMHO. Cracking that heavy Carnivean is not easy, especially since he is so fast. Anyways, love to hear more thoughts.

[PG_GrimmRiggins]

Keep in mind that a savvy opponent won't always run to engage you... if you've assaulted you've also left your trenchers extremely vulnerable to AOE's and to even mediocre direct fire, as well as troop-removal spells. Like I said, you'd better have a really good idea of what to do after the majority of your Trenchers die, or have inflicted a crippling enough blow to your opponent that the counter strike is negligible.

[Duke Lisle]

Any advice on using them with E Magnus for his Bad Seeds Tier list?

[Joasht]

Do keep in mind that Temporal Barrier actually has a limited "range" unlike in the earlier age of Mk.I; namely, its entirely possible for your opponent to not get caught in the bubble and still manage a charge; this is assuming of course that your Trenchers are quite some way in front of pHaley. Would require some thinking in the movement and positioning.

Any advice on using them with E Magnus for his Bad Seeds Tier list?

Mmm, this is a Cygnar forum, so perhaps shift the eMagnus-specific talk to the Mercenary forums? To be fair I'm rather curious too (since I do own all the components for his tier list) but I'd rather not dilute the thread

[Icepick28]

I prefer to use them as a secondary wave flanking force. This way, they won't be easily engaged, they can support your main troops if possible (hopefully then have snipe, Finn, or deadeye to help with shoot targets).

[Joasht]

I prefer to use them as a secondary wave flanking force. This way, they won't be easily engaged, they can support your main troops if possible (hopefully then have snipe, Finn, or deadeye to help with shoot targets).

Wouldn't the Trenchers be generally faster than the rest of your army though?

What is your main force, typically?

[drugfreeboy]

They aren't gonna be faster than stuff that is running if they are moving and digging in or popping smoke

[guspm]

@AaronB13F - Snipe used to be a cost of * and you got a range bonus of 1" per focus spent and then just paid the upkeep. MKII changed it to cost 2, range +4" which is a better ratio and cheaper hot swapping, but less possible range in one go now (with a squire now you could have gotten +7" range) 41/33

@OP, with pCaine and the right support you can have your trenchers firing 3" into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn. This is not always useful but I have had it shred all of my opponents support solos right off the bat. And depending on what you are willing to sink into support you can still make them a pretty big problem to deal with. I spent 33 points and ended up with 15 trenchers at def13/arm16 tough and fearless sitting close to my opponents, with a SBlade DS running up the field behind them; most of the support units I had switched their help to the SB's once the Trenchers were picked apart.

This may not be hte best idea and it doesn't work all the time, but with AD you can usually see how the setup looks before you commit to it. On that note, remember that you don't have to have your unit in the AD zone, its just an option.

[Garath]

Who or what did you Haley Suckerpunch?

And thanks for pointing out the daisy chain effect That's really quite useful!

It's funny how things and tactics makes more sense when someone shows you.

Haley suckerpunch is a list of models with ranged weapons and AD...and pHaley! ( who knew?)

The idea is to AD as many models as possible, pop feat early one (turn 1 if you go second) and drop as many big targets as possible before the game develops - giving you the upper hand

[Joasht]

I must admit, the whole "1st round of awesome" is really making the cogs in my head spin. I can see it being a little bit predictable, but frankly other than your opponent hoping that the terrain is vastly in their favor, its not necessarily an easy thing to prevent.

[PG_relasine]

The first time I played a Trencher Deathstar (Full unit w/ Officer & Sniper, 3 Grenade Porters, Finn), I ended up playing against a Mage Hunter Strike Force. The second and last time I played the Deathstar was against Exemplar Errants w/ UA, Senechal.

It upsets me a little that our supposed full, front-line unit costs 19 points, and yet is less consistently effective than Khador's 13-point Winter Guard Deathstar (Full Unit w/ Officer & Standard, 3 Rocketeers, Grigorovich). But, whatever.

[Joasht]

Thats because ours is probably overcosted by 2 points IMO (I feel the infantry should be 8 points for max) while the WG are probably undercosted by 3 (their UA should cost 3 since even the SB has weapons, and frankly, Joe should be like 4 points, or 3 at least). Combining the two gives you that roughly 5 point "gap" :/

But anyway lets not digress too much into the "WG > Trenchers" conversation haha.

How did those games where you went up against the MHSF and EE's go?

[Garath]

I must admit, the whole "1st round of awesome" is really making the cogs in my head spin. I can see it being a little bit predictable, but frankly other than your opponent hoping that the terrain is vastly in their favor, its not necessarily an easy thing to prevent.

Yes,predictable...but there's little they can de facto do...

This is especially effective for grabbing objectives. AD, used desperate pace from Finn- and run forward. Or use cautious advance and dig+smoke

[Joasht]

And maybe with pCaine. Of course as aforementioned you could do the first-turn Sniped shooting shenanigans, then if you went first on your second round you can hit them up with Blur. Even against stuff that can ignore cover DEF 16 can be decently legit as long as you space yourselves out a bit. Not "great", but hey, its something.

[leo_neil316]

Basically, the pseudo-Deathstar is the min unit + UA + 3WA + Finn. Its a total of 14 points for 12 models; a slightly lackluster parallel to the WG Deathstar, which in itself is 13 points for 16 models.

Min trenchers = 6. u/a = 3, 3 grenade porters = 3, finn = 3.

6+3+3+3= 15 points. Not 14.

And you're taking the trencher u/a instead of paying a point more for more trenchers. The u/a is terrible. Cautious advance a) can't be used all the time and b) is usually ignored these days anyway. And it's the only thing the 3 point u/a does except give you two slightly more accurate trenchers. Because accuracy is a problem (in bizzaro world where trenchers aren't the most accurate thing in the game with attacks capable of hitting about 20 points higher than def can ever get).

13 trenchers and Finn for 16 points is a better buy. Gives you more dakka, take a caster like pCaine and that's you got a 22" threat range on 13 RAT 7+3d6 POW 11's. 3 of them AOE's. Or a POW 24 CRA capable of making heavy warjacks do a spit-take. And you'll almost always get the alpha strike.

Duke Lisle: Calamity on a target makes a 2 man trencher CRA POW 15, a 5 man CRA POW 18 and a 10 man CRA POW 23. With the full unit hitting at POW 28.

Does the job.

[leo_neil316]

AD, used desperate pace from Finn- and run forward. Or use cautious advance and dig+smoke

Cannot cautious advance and smoke. You MUST make a full advance, dig in and then make a combat action. No special actions. So fire the rifles or stab someone. Even if you know no one is in range. You still technically have to do it.

Don't think that's important? You're technically supposed to check LOS, declare target and measure range for all those shots. Lots of wasted time at a tournament.

[Joasht]

Min trenchers = 6. u/a = 3, 3 grenade porters = 3, finn = 3.

6+3+3+3= 15 points. Not 14.

And you're taking the trencher u/a instead of paying a point more for more trenchers. The u/a is terrible. Cautious advance a) can't be used all the time and b) is usually ignored these days anyway. And it's the only thing the 3 point u/a does except give you two slightly more accurate trenchers. Because accuracy is a problem (in bizzaro world where trenchers aren't the most accurate thing in the game with attacks capable of hitting about 20 points higher than def can ever get).

13 trenchers and Finn for 16 points is a better buy. Gives you more dakka, take a caster like pCaine and that's you got a 22" threat range on 13 RAT 7+3d6 POW 11's. 3 of them AOE's. Or a POW 24 CRA capable of making heavy warjacks do a spit-take. And you'll almost always get the alpha strike.

Ah, forgive the miscalculation. Mistakes happen haha...

What do you mean by "you can't always use cautious advance"? Do you mean that its useless in combat, etc? Thing is, I'd argue that if Cautious Advance saves even one or two of your 1-point-per-model models, then you've already paid back the cost of the UA. Stuff may ignore cover but theres the whole "ignore blasts" part.

Cannot cautious advance and smoke. You MUST make a full advance, dig in and then make a combat action. No special actions. So fire the rifles or stab someone. Even if you know no one is in range. You still technically have to do it.

Don't think that's important? You're technically supposed to check LOS, declare target and measure range for all those shots. Lots of wasted time at a tournament.

Are people usually that finicky? Where I'm at if its out of range we just forget about the rest of it. Besides, if someone really did tell me to do that, I'd just stretch out my measuring tape to the range, say all are shooting at the same model, and rapidly sweep.

[leo_neil316]

I mean it's possible to play on boards where you can't use cautious advance. Ever. And much more likely that you won't be able to dig in where you need to. Can't dig into manmade constructions, can't dig into rocks. Everyone acts like it's just 'rocks' but, say, a wooden pier? No dig in.

And yes, people can be finicky and tell you to play by the rules. Which 'taking your measuring tape to the ranges and rapidly sweeping' is not. And yeah, sure, I wouldn't do it. But you can't complain about your opponent telling you to actually play by the rules of your model. Say hello to deathclock.

And then most of the popular ranged units ignore cover anyway or can be accurate enough to get around it. And alot of the blasts people use get around it too. Vanquishers and ravagores don't care about the blast damage. They care about setting you on fire.

I'd rather just have more trenchers.

[PG_relasine]

How did those games where you went up against the MHSF and EE's go?

You mean those games when Arcane Shield/Blur, Dig In, and Smoke didn't do a wink for me? You get one guess.

[leo_neil316]

You said 'screw the buffs' and slammed a good ol' 11" assault into their gitty overpowered gitty underpriced gitty gitty git git faces and killed them all while shouting 'who's ya daddy now'.

[Joasht]

You mean those games when Arcane Shield/Blur, Dig In, and Smoke didn't do a wink for me? You get one guess.

Just being optimistic; anything can happen! :P
But in all seriousness Trenchers aren't exactly the "favored unit" like MHSF, WG, EE and BTs are for their respective factions, as ours would (probably) be the ATGMs - divergent in function, but roughly at a comparable level of hatred from our opponents.

[Snuggly Buffalo]

Something to keep in mind, I believe, if running trenchers with the Black 13th: as far as I'm aware, Ryan's mage storm is not blast damage. Everything in the AOE takes a POW 12 magic damage roll, and so trenchers caught in it are going to die, whether or not they're dug in.

[sleet01]

Yup. Mage Storm eats Trenchers for lunch.