Woldwrath Speculation

[Blaque]

We don't know they will be places lightning templates, TBH Krueger 1s feat as a gun would be a bit good.

Scather templates on Legion and Cryx weapons already do this, and leave cloud effects to boot. So it is not out of the question to have an AOE gun that leaves templates like this. Hell, that's half of what I use Geomancy with Krueger2 for when I don't have TK targets.

Geomancy is bad in general. On a 9 point beast you basically have to force to use your gun (And with only 3 fury too!) and it gets typed as a spell instead of ranged. Wardens are fast falling out of use as we find more and more they just aren't worth it (Not yet though) because they simply aren't as good as other factions ranged options.

This is probably fodder for another thread, but just to address:

Most guns tend to be just that, guns. Offensive spells tend to have extoic effects, such as with Eruption of Life, Lightning Storm, Strangelhold, Earth Spikes, and Crevasse. Earth Spikes compared to a Destroyer is pretty damned good, for instnace, being magica, ignoring cover, ignoring elevation, and critically knocking for some range. Geomancy also tends to be more accurate than most warbeast and warjack guns, starting at 6 and going up.

I will note also tone here. You speak as if you represent Circle as a whole. And while trends and list building can be used as citation, I kind of will note that "we find it unfavorable" implies you are speaking on everyone's behalf.

Circle also has maybe 3 casters with spells that are better than the average heavy beast/jack ranged option. those casters make geomancy worth it, but otherwise its just a fury intensive bad gun.

Baldur1, Cassius, Krueger1, Krueger2, Mohsar, and Morvahna all have good spells worth casting with them offensively, I think. They also have buffs or debuffs they like to cycle or get out there with minimal cost to themselves. Morvahna is the one I find hardest of late to justify them with. I think I mostly miss being able to get all spells out turn one, but htat's not worth the 9 points, sure.

The utility side is often better (Casting buffs and stuff) but barely makes up for the cost of the beasts with it.

With Krueger2, I get up to 4 TKs in one turn with a single Woldwarden. Or three Lightning Storms. With Krueger1, I have cycled Lightning Tendrils between three units or beasts easily. Baldur1 does the same with Stone Skin or occcassional Earth Spikes bombardment. Cassius and Mohsar really like the ability to cycle Curse of Shadows such that their own offensive output increases for spells.

So yeah, an extra 2-3 fury is the wrong way to think of it, its generally just a bad gun, compare it to other ranged options to see if its really worth it (A 9 point beast with a RNG 10 POW 11?)

Only one caster has a spell like that (Cassius) and that RNG 10, POW 11 effectively death-chills things. Note also it can simply Curse of Shadows, which results in a damage buff for your army. Meanwhile we have:
- Baldur1 - POW 13, RNG 10, AOE 3
- Krueger1 - POW 10, RNG 10, 1d6 Electric Leaps
- Krueger2 - POW 10 to-everything, RNG 8, AOE 3-persistent template
- Krueger 2 - POW 13, RNG 10, repositionor
- Krueger2 - POW -, RNG 8, +2 to hit for army or +2 speed for single models.
- Morvahna - POW 13, RNG 10, AOE 3 to everything under template on death
- Mohsar - POW 12, RNG 8, SP8 to everything in spray ond eath

Note the lowest of these are Cassius and Baldur, with FURY 6, making them more accurate than most gun outside of characters and Cygnar. Morvahna, Krueger, and Mohsar are better than anything but Hunters or aiming
Compared to guns of other models, they are actually fairly good. You have to force for it, yes. But you also get the aformentioned utility and cycling. This, I will again admit, doesn't mean they are auto-includes. This means they will be takenw ith casters with the overlapping qualities of good offensive spells and cyclable buffs or debuffs (of which I think Baldur1, Krueger1, and Mohsar do best, Krueger2 just has a lot of good spells). And as I see it, focusing on spellcasting and giving the warlock more vectors to do it, and more opportunities to do it, is what you take the Geomancer for.

Although, this all being said, that it might drag-down the Woldwrath is understandable. Just that I think the rule itself is good, the need of it on a model that seems to be geared at offense is more validly questionable.

And stuff.

[Ruan]

Blaque pretty much summed up my feelings with regards to Geomancy. As I did say earlier though, I am hoping that the Woldwrath will not have Geomancy, because I'd rather it have some other special rules. Geomancy is nice, but I'd rather use that fury for other things with the Woldwrath.

[santospr]

I never compared him to or said he would be equivalent in ranged power to a Stormwall; please put that strawman back in the closet The Conquest is the weakest Colossal by a country mile, and I have to disagree that he was balanced properly (he's basically one rule shy of being good but still subpar to Stormwall, i.e. something like Big B's sub-cortex etc.). He's not unplayable by any stretch, but my point was that the sub-par Colossal with buffs is still not OP. The point was: as Circle has less ranged options/buffs than even Khador expecting the Woldwrath to have at least as much ranged as Conquest is neither OP nor wishful thinking.

On the other hand I think the 'let's guess the Gargant's stats' threads are just plain bad. The stats, whatever they are, are already in cement. Folks are not going to convince designers one way or the other they were wrong and to reprint cards/mags/etc., and it's going to confuse the hell out of people when spoilers come down the pipe and they think these threads are the real thing (and I've already seen it happen a couple of times). Tossing out stuff like "it could mean this kind of gun" is fun speculation, but trying to guess at complete statlines is a bit out there It muddies the water on what we do know, which is "has AOE knockdown fists, some kind of lightning storm, gun Cygnar would drool over (which may or may not be the storms), and rumor from a guy who talked to the designer at L&L says self-healing (although I'm not doubting the convo this is less solid simply because it is second-hand )." And that's about it lol.

It is titled Woldwrath speculation and not spoilers though, so there should be no cause for confusion.

I like your stats RidetheLightning...that model would be pretty badass. I don't think it will be like that. I see awareness suddenly working, and that should never work.

Also, great write up Blaque, made me rethink geomancy's usefulness. I still think the woldwarden is overpriced, especially with the seemingly badluck of always getting spirit knocked off first...curses!

[PG_LEJKaya]

Scather templates on Legion and Cryx weapons already do this, and leave cloud effects to boot. So it is not out of the question to have an AOE gun that leaves templates like this. Hell, that's half of what I use Geomancy with Krueger2 for when I don't have TK targets.

I said placing the templtes. Leaving templates is fine, people are saying it will place templates within range. I don't think that will happen.

Most guns tend to be just that, guns. Offensive spells tend to have extoic effects, such as with Eruption of Life, Lightning Storm, Strangelhold, Earth Spikes, and Crevasse. Earth Spikes compared to a Destroyer is pretty damned good, for instnace, being magica, ignoring cover, ignoring elevation, and critically knocking for some range. Geomancy also tends to be more accurate than most warbeast and warjack guns, starting at 6 and going up.

Yeah but then theres the spriggan flare your aforementioned scather templates, dozens of continuous fire and corrosion or freeze or KD guns too. Thats before we look at Vyre guns.

I will note also tone here. You speak as if you represent Circle as a whole. And while trends and list building can be used as citation, I kind of will note that "we find it unfavorable" implies you are speaking on everyone's behalf.

That is certainly not my intent, "We" in this case is the circle players who were in my house when I wrote that!
In general my point is not that Geomancy is worthless but its wrong to think of it as free fury. Its not.
Its an activation of a 9 point beast and locally Circle players are looking twice more and more as most other 9 point beasts have a bigger effect on the game when they activate.
Also as I said their OOA easing and utility casting are undeniably useful. Much better than the gun you have to force to shoot.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

According to the information that we have in the compiled notes, which seems to come from Privateer staff, the templates in fact will be PLACED. Which is not all that crazy when you look at Conquest and Stormwall to compare.

[Blaque]

Gotta agree. If they are placeable, they will likely be POW 10, AOE 3 templates. It's a matter of how many and what we do in exchange, much like with Conquest and Stormwall with them. Do kind of hope they do more like Lightning Storms than the Krueger1 templates, though. I kind of always liked the option of trying to drift those into enemy troops.

And stuff.

[eliassmith27]

According to the information that we have in the compiled notes, which seems to come from Privateer staff, the templates in fact will be PLACED. Which is not all that crazy when you look at Conquest and Stormwall to compare.

I haven't seen anything to indicate they will be placed. the diffrence between Conquests and Stormwalls AOEs and lightning storm AOEs is that lightning storm AOEs would do damage to the models when it is placed. The AOEs the colossals place don't, they do damage if you enter or end in them.

That said, I would love to be able to auto-kill winterguard, Nyss, Kayozi, and any other high DEF models, I just don't think they'll give us that.

[Bakemono]

Now there is a thought. I'd like some kind of ranged Disruption AND for the thing to act like a giant Gallows Grove, i.e. a field around it shutting down Tough, healing, etc.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

I don't think we'll be getting Entropic Force on anything else for a little while (thought I'd be ok with being wrong there). I also don't see us getting Disruption on much, and honestly I'm not overly concerned with it.

[Kuzyn]

For now i'm in love what do you think about geomancy throwing 4 fury spells? that could be quite cool Peace!

[eliassmith27]

I don't think we'll be getting Entropic Force on anything else for a little while (thought I'd be ok with being wrong there). I also don't see us getting Disruption on much, and honestly I'm not overly concerned with it.

Entropic Force on a model with a CMD - If anyone gets it, it'll be us. lol

[Mattho2k3]

What are Gargantuans considered in regards to Theme forces? Is the Woldwrath considered a Gargantuan or a Construct Warbeast? If he is considered a construct warbeast he could be taken in both Baldurs theme force and while he probably wouldn't get a point reduction for pBaldur tier 4 he would be AD for his tier 2 benefit.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

2 things...

1 - we have entropic force on Gallows Groves, so I don't think we're getting more of that for a while.
2 - Gargantuans can never get Advanced Deploy

[Mercykiller]

If it follows the same pattern as Colossals he'll just be considered a construct, albeit a huge one. So no eKaya theme force, but Baldur theme forces should be fine and any other construct-allowing. That's a pretty reasonable assumption. However Colossal rules (and likely Gargantuan rules as well) keep them from ADing, even in theme forces.

[Blaque]

It'll be most useful I think for Krueger2's NQ Themed list, since I think the Woldwrath probably will bring more hitting and firepower than the other Constructs he can bring to the table. One of those and a Geomancer probably will be the load-out I will run if it is any good.

And stuff.

[Azuresun]

Most guns tend to be just that, guns. Offensive spells tend to have extoic effects, such as with Eruption of Life, Lightning Storm, Strangelhold, Earth Spikes, and Crevasse. Earth Spikes compared to a Destroyer is pretty damned good, for instnace, being magica, ignoring cover, ignoring elevation, and critically knocking for some range. Geomancy also tends to be more accurate than most warbeast and warjack guns, starting at 6 and going up.

Also, Geomancy is handy for getting buffs up, and cycling them between targets within a turn.

[rpavers]

It'll be most useful I think for Krueger2's NQ Themed list, since I think the Woldwrath probably will bring more hitting and firepower than the other Constructs he can bring to the table. One of those and a Geomancer probably will be the load-out I will run if it is any good.

And stuff.

That's what I'm thinking as well. As long as it hit hard will be a good fit.

[rpavers]

Double post...

[santospr]

It will solve that theme force's biggest problem I'd say. Might even end up being are best theme force. Hitting power, extreme control, spell denial, attrition and focus removal. All that's left is purification/dispel.


This was in reference to eKrueger's Wake of destruction list. Garbin had the same thought below.

[PG_circletakesthesquare]

I'll give it my best shot...

Spd 4
Str 17
Mat 6
Rat 5
Def 8
Arm 20
Fury 4

Open fist x 2 pow 3... So p+s 20
Center the aoe 4 obviously..

Rng 8 aoe 3 lightning storm side guns

Rng 12 pow 16 main gun.. momentum..

Bountiful restoration, but instead of woldwardens b2b any construct b2b getsz 1 hp removed..

62 hit boxes mostly in body and spirit..

O and animus is bump..

[Blaque]

Don't expect more HP than a colossal. Of any speculaitons, seeing wounds on par with the Hyperion is where I think we are not going to be happy. It will more than likely look more like the Stormwall is my bet on totals.

And stuff.

[PG_cheddercaveman]

Don't expect more HP than a colossal. Of any speculaitons, seeing wounds on par with the Hyperion is where I think we are not going to be happy. It will more than likely look more like the Stormwall is my bet on totals.

And stuff.

Tough to say I think. Megalith has the 2nd most hit points of any heavy in the game, 1 behind the Behemoth. I think there is a lot of space to see how many we get with the Woldwrath certainly.

[rpavers]

Tough to say I think. Megalith has the 2nd most hit points of any heavy in the game, 1 behind the Behemoth. I think there is a lot of space to see how many we get with the Woldwrath certainly.

+1. Same with woldwarden. I can see it being maybe 19 ARM but I'm going to go with the prediction it has the most hp out of anything. Gotta make up for it not being able to be buffed really unlike pretty much every other colossal.

MK has to have low hp for balance reasons with snacking AND shed whelps.

[Ruan]

Which means it also depends what it has for defenses - I wouldn't be surprised if it had lightning immunity to go with the guns, for instance, plus a bunch of myriad other things. But chedder's right - Circle constructs tend to be beefy, HP wise.

With regards to the POW of the guns, in the Monsternomicon entry it is discussed roasting a Titan Cannoneer with its lightning attack, which implies a decent POW... but at the same time, if the lightning IS placed, I doubt that they'd have it any more than a max of POW 12, more likely POW 10.

... really hoping it is spoiled in the next NQ. I want to play with my giant gorilla tie-fighter of doom.

[Garbin]

@circletakesthesquare: I'd take that for 20pts every day. In most (if not every) lists probably. I can only hope it will be that good.

Imagine it in Wake of Destruction list. It would be easily our best tierlist. Ehh.. dream on.

[rpavers]

Swinging for the fences again, but for its animus I would love to see DTM or pyre trolls animus on it. Would open up all sorts of possibilities then.

[Mercykiller]

Unlikely to happen, but the Earthborn's animus would make folks wet themselves in glee.

[rpavers]

Unlikely to happen, but the Earthborn's animus would make folks wet themselves in glee.

I know but it would help sooooo much with the horrific damage output of wolds. ARM 26 woldwatchers would be funny though if earthborn animus.

[Mercykiller]

That would be hilarious in eBaldur's tier list

[rpavers]

That would be hilarious in eBaldur's tier list

Might be pushing it for 4pts... Not that I have a problem with it bc you know, it's wolds..

[Blaque]

I don't think the world is ready for ARM 24, can't be KD'd, behind wall Ghetorix honestly.

And stuff.

[Mercykiller]

I don't think the world is ready for ARM 24, can't be KD'd, behind wall Ghetorix honestly.

And stuff.

Giggity.

And stuff

[txiab]

I think circletakesthesquare's description is probably pretty much spot on if I had to guess. I am not sure about the hit boxes, but think the stats, abilities, animus, etc are all probably pretty close. Although, from its description in the MN it might have some ability that makes it so it can't be targeted by spells, or some other spell affecting ability. I could go down one point on the ARM as well.

[MindwormJim]

Random observation:
The Woldwrath may be able to take advantage of the lesser-used part of Cassius' feat.
Punch an infantry model -> all the other members of the unit in the 4" AoE fall down -> they take one point of damage from the feat and die.
Combined with Reach and its base size that gives the Woldwrath some hideously effective troop-clearing potential in melee.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Random observation:
The Woldwrath may be able to take advantage of the lesser-used part of Cassius' feat.
Punch an infantry model -> all the other members of the unit in the 4" AoE fall down -> they take one point of damage from the feat and die.
Combined with Reach and its base size that gives the Woldwrath some hideously effective troop-clearing potential in melee.

Bonzer! .

[Bakemono]

Random observation:
The Woldwrath may be able to take advantage of the lesser-used part of Cassius' feat.
Punch an infantry model -> all the other members of the unit in the 4" AoE fall down -> they take one point of damage from the feat and die.
Combined with Reach and its base size that gives the Woldwrath some hideously effective troop-clearing potential in melee.

He beat me to it. Good spot. That would, indeed, be a useful troop clearing ability.

[rpavers]

So this probably off topic, but how do power attacks actually work with field of fire? Does each do their own thing or something?

[Vicomte Athos]

He beat me to it. Good spot. That would, indeed, be a useful troop clearing ability.

Would depend on the size of the AOE. it would also hinge on the fact that Woldwrath was charged and not killed. Otherwise no one is going to bunch up their troops enough to make that work.

[vagabondaeon]

Would depend on the size of the AOE. it would also hinge on the fact that Woldwrath was charged and not killed. Otherwise no one is going to bunch up their troops enough to make that work.

Word of God says it's a 4" AOE.

That'll catch a few things, unless 4" AOEs suddenly became too small as of late.

[Ruan]

If the Woldwrath is charged by so many infantry that it goes down in one turn... you're not protecting it at all. When you have a piece that's a) hopefully that powerful and b) costs that much, why would you not protect it?

Some additional thoughts:

I am going to guess that the melee knockdown is a *Attack, rather than some sort of Uber-Ram ability. Either way, you get to charge (for free with either version of Baldur), hit it with a *Attack (which I think should have Reach...). Assuming a direct hit against a single target knocks down all targets under the AoE (as opposed to a single attack roll to knock down all targets like Tremor), you essentially pound your target enemy model into the ground so hard it makes a crater that knocks everything around it down.

... fun!

Cassius in particular..

Hellmouth. Shifting Stones + Gallows Grove = easy place targets for Hellmouths. It'll kill light ARM, might not kill high ARM infantry (though it still can) but it can pull high ARM right into position... and then you autopoint them with the knockdown. Hellmouth the Woldwrath. Might not hit anything with the final AoE (aside from the Woldwrath, who presumably can take it), but you're pulling a lot of stuff in around that huge base. Proceed to pound. It'll have Pathfinder, so no worries getting it through the forest. Curse of Shadows makes it hit harder all around. Huge base guards tree. Enemy kills the infantry you're using to screen the Woldwrath? Souls for the tree. Then during the next turn even more souls for the tree as it goes to town on them.

Potentially a fun mix.

---

Going with the barebones of what we're relatively certain of... Ranged lightning attacks, construct, AoE melee knockdown.

Other interactions... It's a construct warbeast, so normal construct healing caveats apply - Shifting Stones, possibly itself, Baldur. Depending just how good the ranged attacks are, plonk a Wilder right behind it in the mid/backfield for Condition and you've got a nice ranged setup where you can adjust the fury on it as needed. Good news in addition to that is that it IS a warbeast, which means all those shiny abilities keep going and going and going so long as you have all aspects.

pKaya - Stealth from Occultation, which is nothing to sneeze at. Pull other warbeasts behind it with Spirit Door. Cannot Spirit Door it.
eKaya - gives it Stealth, extends the threat range and lets it charge/slam for free and irregardless of LoS. Can't benefit from Forced Evolution though. Cannot pull it back with feat.
pKrueger - BIG Chain Lightning target, give it electro leap, use Krueger to roast infantry while it deals with the heavies. Lightning Tendrils a unit - suddenly lightning immune becomes even more useful, since the Woldwrath ranged AoEs won't do anything
eKrueger - Storm Wall helps it against ranged attacks, feat buys time for it it blast enemies with its range, TK to pull multiple things in under the knockdown attack/together for ranged attack.
pBaldur - Feat buys it time to blast enemies, charge/power attack for free from Elemental Mastery, Stone Skin if it is getting mixed up in things.
eBaldur - Feat, Roots of the Earth, Rock wall... basically just help it tank.
Morvahna - could really be fun. Gatorman Witch Doctor + Regrowth gives it a ever-regenerating Tough screen. Ranged attacks feed into Harvest and possibly blast any upkeep removal away short of a Purification caster. AoE Melee knockdown makes Eruption of Life hit fairly easily on multiple targets. Restoration to buff the ARM a little.
Mohsar - Hard to Maltreat to death, especially if it has any self-healing. Pillars are one of the few things that can actually block LoS to it. Gives Mohsar some additional staying power with his attrition game.
Kromac - ...actually doesn't really offer it much. ARM Buff in Inviolable Resolve. Bestial to protect it from spells. Wild Aggression and Warpath do nothing for it. That's just about it though. It does provide a huge base to block LoS to his smaller one though.
Grayle - ...possibly the reason for him having Awareness? Especially if you don't place ranged AoEs but fire them as normal. 360 front arc might let it shoot all around it, if the lightning attacks are not being fired from its' arms. Wind Blast away a cloud, or force ranged units to move.

---

Argus - 360 front arc won't help fields of fire (as per Infernal ruling), but does help any weapon not assigned to R or L Arm.
Gorax - does nothing. Primal doesn't help.
Griffon - Parry lets it just walk out of melee.
Winter Argus - not much, but sprays might make a target stationary for easy hitting with ranged/melee knockdown.
Woldwatcher - Shield Guard, potentially.
Woldwyrd - not much. Gives it a big buddy to tag along with, might help protect it from spells (especially with two Woldwyrds?)
Feral - gives your opponents something else to worry about.
Pureblood - Wraithbane does apply to ranged attacks.
Stalker - gives your opponents something else to worry about. Sprint does nothing for it.
Ghetorix - gives your opponents something else to worry about. Retalitory Strike might not be bad on it.
Gnarlhorn - increase threat range with Bounding. I wonder if the +2 attack would apply to the melee knockdown... possibly guard (hah! good luck) with Counter Slam.
Shadowhorn - Virility does nothing for it (pity). Can lurk around huge base with Bounding Leap.
Woldguardian - Doesn't really help it any.
Woldwarden - Geomancy buffs onto it. Use forest animus to slow down enemies before they get to it.
Megalith - Geomancy buffs onto it. Undergrowth a) makes it easier for it to hit and b) slows down enemies before they get to it. Weight of Stone also helps it hit, and it can't be knocked down by the melee AoE knockdown due to Steady.

Druids + UA - a) lightning immune vortexing tarpit for dropping though lightning AoEs safely, b) protects it from spells, c) force bolt targets into range.
Stoneward and Woldshrimp - between lightning ranged attacks and the Woldshrimp, you might be able to soften up a heavy fairly well.
Reeves + UA - ... not really much of anything aside from softening up targets and CRAing infantry down
Sentry Stone + Mannikins - ... hide Sentry Stone behind huge base? And launch Mannikins from behind it? I dunno.
Shifting Stones + UA - provide it with a) construct healing and b) fury management. Stick a full unit by it and it is healing d3 + shedding 3 fury per turn. Can't teleport it though.
Bloodtrackers + Nuala - skirmish out in front of it. Regrowth them with Morvahna, or Lightning Tendrils them with Krueger for maximum annoyance.
Bloodweavers - remove offensive upkeeps (Crippling Grasp?) from the Woldwrath.
Ravagers + UA/WA - gives your opponents something to deal with - they can take care of the howling horde in front, or the hulking monstrosity in the back.
Wolf Riders - Gives them something to skirmish around - whip around the Woldwrath's side, throw some javelins, then light cav move back behind it.
Skinwalkers - Beefy tarpit to stick in front of it.
Wolves + UA - Squishy cheap reach tarpit that hits respectably hard with Power Swell + CMA. Stick those suckers right in front of the Woldwrath, let the enemy deal with them. (Cassius gets their souls!)

---

Blackclad - extends threat range with Hunter's Mark, has a spray to clear out its melee (especially if targets are already knocked down)
Wilder - Condition makes it essentially furyless if needed, Spirit Tap if it has a non-Self animus.
Reeve Hunter - Not much here.
White Mane - Same.
War Wolf - Same.
Gallows Grove - the answer to why it is fine to hide your warlock behind your Woldwrath. Plus getting rid of Tough if you're lucky with placement.
Lord of the Feast - Not really much. If you can place lightning AoEs that remain in play (which I doubt), maaaybe help keep it alive longer

---Notable Minions

Gatorman Posse - decent all around, doesn't benefit from faction buffs - medium base reach tarpit unit
Witch Doctor - makes units tarpit better - Tough! Undead! + Regrowth from Morvahna (remember, Regrowth, then Zombify) makes a unit silly stupid to get rid of - perfect for tarpitting and preventing stuff from getting to your Woldwrath
Nyss Hunters - also known as why you won't bring Reeves. Hang them back by the Woldwrath while your front line tarpits/skirmishes - once they get through that first line, send the Nyss in. Or even have the Nyss as your front line.

...

Alright, out of thoughts. Anyone has any other potential interactions to add?