LnL painting contest entry

[Jonny4square]

So here is the model I entered for the Lock N' Load grandmaster painting contest (excuse the living room background :P ). I was hoping to get some feedback on it. What do you guys think I should improve on? I was already told the sash should have some extra detail on it like a tartan pattern or some sort of freehand.

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

[Darguth]

A.) I only think you should add detail to the sash if you want to, I think it looks great as-is. Not every troll needs to be wearing Scottish patterns, IMO

B.) I think the red "rock" areas on the skin could use some highlighting. They look pretty flat compared to the rest of the detail you've put into the model.

C.) I think some more vibrant, contrasting green tones for the sword's hilt and pommel as well as the loincloth armor piece could be used. They look a tad dull.

Overall, I think the model is excellent though, much better than I could achieve

[Seventhprophet]

I don't have any input. If I could paint something close to this I would cheer out loud, lol. Well done.

[Wargame_junkie]

The technical level of painting is quite high and the figure looks very good! However, when competing, always be looking for ways that you can push that model over the top. As is, the model looks good, but visually it could use some details that can spice it up even more! Some battle damage on the armor, maybe some tattoos on the skin and a pattern or some variation on the sash can go a long way to add even more to this great looking model. Trolls are dirty and use what ever supplies they can get. Maybe the armor is rusty and they were just able to polish it enough to get the rust off the high spots, leaving rust and grim in the recessed areas. Maybe parts of the armor don't even match.

Just some thoughts to entertain. Did you walk away with a coin?

[Jonny4square]

A.) I only think you should add detail to the sash if you want to, I think it looks great as-is. Not every troll needs to be wearing Scottish patterns, IMO

B.) I think the red "rock" areas on the skin could use some highlighting. They look pretty flat compared to the rest of the detail you've put into the model.

C.) I think some more vibrant, contrasting green tones for the sword's hilt and pommel as well as the loincloth armor piece could be used. They look a tad dull.

Thanks for the feedback Darguth

A: I totally agree with you Im not the biggest fan of the tartan pattern myself But I do agree it needed something extra
B: I think so as well. Also I was tempted to change the color of the rocks to a dark blue so they wouldn't clash with the models already vibrant colors.
C: Taking a second look I do agree with your observation. I think I over shadowed them they could have been a lot more vibrant for sure.

[Jonny4square]

Did you walk away with a coin?

I unfortunately was disqualified for using the spikes on the base ( they where from a GW kit )

[ForestZ]

I think your metals look fantastic. Great blending, good contrast. Your leathers and the tartan look good. They're not spectacular, but if they were the "worst" part of your model, I think you'd be ok to let them lay. Your flesh, however, is falling flat.

Part of the reason I think is that it looks too chalky. Possibly a combination of the color you used for your highlight, and blending that makes it look more like drybrushing.

The other thing I think that's not working is the inconsistency of the light source on the flesh. It's fine in some places but others it's either too subtle, or not pushing the concept of where the light source is. Look at the pectoral muscle, for example. The brightest part should really be towards the top with a gradual but obvious falloff towards shadow as it gets down, but really the brightest part is where your core shadow would be, more than halfway down. And the back muscles are almost uniformly lit in the light side.

That's my opinion on it anyways. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Jonny4square]

I think your metals look fantastic. Great blending, good contrast. Your leathers and the tartan look good. They're not spectacular, but if they were the "worst" part of your model, I think you'd be ok to let them lay. Your flesh, however, is falling flat.

Part of the reason I think is that it looks too chalky. Possibly a combination of the color you used for your highlight, and blending that makes it look more like drybrushing.

The other thing I think that's not working is the inconsistency of the light source on the flesh. It's fine in some places but others it's either too subtle, or not pushing the concept of where the light source is. Look at the pectoral muscle, for example. The brightest part should really be towards the top with a gradual but obvious falloff towards shadow as it gets down, but really the brightest part is where your core shadow would be, more than halfway down. And the back muscles are almost uniformly lit in the light side.

That's my opinion on it anyways. Take it with a grain of salt.

I do appreciate it, no salt needed I do agree I painted the skin tone first before I even decided to paint the rest of him or even decide on the direction of the light source so that is defiantly something I will keep in mind for next time.

[Jonny4square]

On the skin I used RMS Marine teal triad which as I found out is rather on the chalky side. maybe next time ill use P3 paint.

[PG_Fritzagelmann]

First off, mini looks great so please take everything I say with the understanding I just want to push you that lil extra bit

1. Wonderful transitions on the blue skin, great depth and shading. However, as has been stated by other people the orange rock really lets the mini down. You can either try to go with a more subdued hugh, maybe a grey, or try to make it blend in better, perhaps a blue.


2. As others have also stated, the sash is a bit of a letdown If you are not feeling the tartan pattern consider perhaps going little freehand work, maybe a boarder on it like a capital key pattern to make it look like a toga or something. Just something to draw peoples eyes to it.

3. Gotta do something with the eyes, they are to blank right now. Consider something based more along the lines of a reptile or perhaps a feline in terms of pupil placement and such.

4. Teeth and inside mouth need a lil more love in general

5. I believe the base actually takes away from the mini, theres just so much going on and its to big.

6. Consider doing some freehand on the armor plates themselves, large flat areas take scroll work really nicely.

Again, I love your piece and its beautiful: so now I can demand more from you

[anthonicus]

Hey there, I saw your mini in the case and want to tell you that you did a great job!! He is def very characterfully painted. My favorite part of the mini is the NMM which is a really hard technique to master. The blending is superb. I agree with the other posters that the skin could use a bit smoother blending and brighter highlights and darker shadows. I personally like the zenithal highlighting look which has the upper half of the body brighter and the lower half darker. It gives the mini a more realistic lighting effect in my opinion. But anyways...great work buddy!

[Jonny4square]

I truely appreciate the feedback guys! This is invaluable information. It's great to get more eyes on it to see where you've fallen short. So far the biggest critiques people have are about the skin and sash right?

[the_Ravenous]

disqualified for the spikes? really?... wow, i dont recall even seeing any notations about decorative bits... thats close to a dq for using a third party scenic base - but alrighty then - now we all have been warned... i wonder is secret weapon bits are equally disdained?

This is a wonderfully done piece. Its clean, well done and creatively based. At a first glance your base may be a huge detractor due to the seemingly excessive overhang although nicely done with the broken earth and falling roadway. From a judging point of view its big just to be big (looks very cool and well executed though), perhaps taking off the two wing ends and creating some falling points closer in may have improved. But really if he was cut b/c of the spikes then there was probably a serious field of models and first cuts are made easy if they recognize a bit from some other "rival" manufacturer vs a supportive one?

The pipe in the base looks like its just there... if it was weathered beaten and or broken off in lieu of looking square cut off.

The paintwork looks really good, just lacking something that really just makes it pop and or come alive. Little details, different pigmentation at the appropriate pectoral regions, more significant highlights at the rocky growths to help them pop.

Was this your first painting competition at this level?

[PG_Dalthoraz]

Dude that is one helluva Troll. Love the base

[Jonny4square]

disqualified for the spikes? really?... wow, i dont recall even seeing any notations about decorative bits... Was this your first painting competition at this level?

That's what I thought but who am I to argue with the judges :P . Actually I entered last years LnL grandmaster as well and won gold for my widowmaker captian.

[DFGStar]

I unfortunately was disqualified for using the spikes on the base ( they where from a GW kit )

you gotta be kidding me... how lame. thats something GW would pull themselves. im really sad to hear PP would do something like that. who cares. its a spiky bit, not like you're promoting GW.

anyways, the model looks amazing. even in technical painting terms, i dont see much wrong with this model. you're going for the matte look, thats fine. whats the big deal? i hate models that are all fancy colors. natural is the way to go, and this model is pure nature.

im very cynical, so im gonna say they begrudged you and didnt judge you properly for the fact that you used the GW bit. how stupid. i guess the rules are the rules, and probably somewhere in the fine print they said only PP stuff, but still very lame of them.

im very impressed with your model though. its amazing how many good painters are popping up on this forum these days.

[The Antipope]

That is really sad about the spikes and I wonder how far that goes? Even if you used some small spikes, the model itself is still a PP model... Does that mean Microarts bases etc. would disqualify you too?

It's a lovely piece. I'm not a fan of NMM but you have pulled it off very well.

[Belphagis]

I'd love it if you could inform me which colors you used for your golds and silvers. I'm painting up an ophidian figure for gencon and want to start doing nmm.

[Jonny4square]

That is really sad about the spikes and I wonder how far that goes? Even if you used some small spikes, the model itself is still a PP model... Does that mean Microarts bases etc. would disqualify you too?

Actually I don't think it would. They stated in the P3 grandmaster competition rules that 3rd party bases are ok, but converting a model using other companies bits is a no-go. Nothing about making bases with them but oh well

@Belphagis Sure!
for my steel/silver type metal I used: P3 Thamar black, GW codex grey, P3 Marrow white ( I also Glazed the model with GW Bestial brown and P3 Meredius blue)
for my golds I used: GW Bestial brown, GW Snakebite leather, GW Bubonic brown, VMC Flat yellow, VMC Ice yellow, and P3 marrow white

[anthonicus]

WOW that widowmaker captain was you too?? I really loved that mini...your metal work on that mini was perfect as well! Your blends are quite smooth sir. but yea the main thing from my perspective on the troll is the skin and more having more contrast/zenithal highlighting (but its a stylistic choice that I prefer which may not be for everyone). I totally dig your NMM!

oh and your base is awesome too! reminds me of Ben Komets' stuff :P

[Jonny4square]

WOW that widowmaker captain was you too?? I really loved that mini...your metal work on that mini was perfect as well! Your blends are quite smooth sir. but yea the main thing from my perspective on the troll is the skin and more having more contrast/zenithal highlighting (but its a stylistic choice that I prefer which may not be for everyone). I totally dig your NMM!

oh and your base is awesome too! reminds me of Ben Komets' stuff :P

Thanks for the kind words That's funny because I go the idea from a Ben Komets tutorial dvd where he teaches you about making bases :P

[anthonicus]

Haha, yup I have that tutorial too which is why I recognized it. You did a good job with it! I wish got a closer look at it.

Are you going to gen con? I'm thinking of going to hopefully win more coins...It'd be pretty pimp to be able to use the coins as focus/fury counters lol...

[Jonny4square]

Haha, yup I have that tutorial too which is why I recognized it. You did a good job with it! I wish got a closer look at it.

Are you going to gen con? I'm thinking of going to hopefully win more coins...It'd be pretty pimp to be able to use the coins as focus/fury counters lol...

I'm not unfortunatly, I really want to though maybe next year. This August/ September for me is quite busy (wedding stuff)

[anthonicus]

ah...well congrats! I guess id rather have a wife than go to gencon too haha :P lucky mine is supportive of my geeky hobby

[Wishing]

My feedback:

The metals look amazing. Definitely the strongest part of the model. Fantastic work.

The main thing I think is lacking is shading. I feel like the model would benefit immensely from some black wash in the creases between the skin and the cloth, and the cloth and the armour, for example. You can tell that the shading is missing and it makes the model look a bit odd and like a hologram, if that makes sense. It also makes the model look too clean, too tidy, and lacking character. A little bit of shadow and darkness would make the model look really spectacular.

DQing the model because of a part used on the base is a bit odd. The rules seem to imply that the base counts as a separate model with its own rules, since you have to use a PP model with no 3rd party bits added, but the base can be 3rd party. Saying that you can't add a 3rd party bit to a 3rd party base is just bizarre.

[Jonny4square]

DQing the model because of a part used on the base is a bit odd. The rules seem to imply that the base counts as a separate model with its own rules, since you have to use a PP model with no 3rd party bits added, but the base can be 3rd party. Saying that you can't add a 3rd party bit to a 3rd party base is just bizarre.

Thanks for the critiques I will definitely push the shadows more. I thought it was odd to be DQ'ed for that base bit too . I would love some clarification on that rule from some staffers so the next time I enter, or for that matter anyone else we'll be ok knowing that our models wont be DQ'ed for extra scenery.

[HeadHunter]

Sounds kind of like PP spite to me (which is odd and highly unusual). AFAIK, they've never DQ'd someone for a third party base, so the fact that the bits are GW shouldn't matter.
DEfinitely recommend looking into this - that was an unfair call on the part of whatever judge disqualified it.

[komodokeeper]

I like what you've done, and a lot of the comments ring true (base aside, I'll give my thoughts in a minute), but there is one minute detail I notice in the backshot that could shed some more light.

although minor, there is some bleed over of the red head quills into the blue of the skin, and the red 'zits' on the right arm (arm in the left side of the pic) are not red all the way to the bottom of the growth, looking like the blue has bled over a bit. I may have hit these areas with your shading color to hide these bleeds (i'm notorious for them), and may have helped make a good paint job even better.

As for the base, since the entire base isn't 3rd party, I could see how the judges could count it under the conversion rule since the base itself was "converted" from a little black disk using GW bits. I could also see the use of GW pieces leading to disqualification as a precautionary measure on PPS' part to avoid any hassle (no matter how pointless or merited) from GW. Annoy one painter and you have an angry painter....annoy GW and you have a legal battle that win or lose (more win lately than lose, true) costs money, which leads to headaches for all. Just a thought, as I am no judge and I would love to hear from PPS if just to get the 'final ruling.' I wouldn't take it personal though, I'm sure Matt would give some pointers regardless if asked directly next time...

And if it's any consolation, it'd beat my entries (in any comp. . .I wasn't at LnL), from the basecoat, on any day...

[Jonny4square]

@Komodokeeper that is a good point never really thought about the legal ramifications that would possibly arrive from that. So do you think it's just no GW parts or no 3rd party parts? I'm definatly not angry, it is what it is ill just be more cautious next time. But like you said I would really like a PPS to comment and set the rule stright.

[althai]

I unfortunately was disqualified for using the spikes on the base ( they where from a GW kit )

Man that's rough. You certainly would have gotten a gold medal with it, and though it's hard to tell from online pics only, I think you would have been a strong contender for BiS. I think it's an improvement on your widowmaker from last year.

You have my sympathies; if you catch me at a con sometime, I'll buy you a beer. I do think it was a fair DQ though. I guess you'll be more careful about strictly following the rules next time!


Here are my critiques:
1. Increase the contrast, on everything. "Higher highlights, deeper shadows." (I've certainly had that phrase beaten into my own head enough times. :P) The skin looks flat, and parts of the nmm (like the gold on the sword) don't read well as metal. I recommend checking out Sprocket's illustrated guide to painting nmm armour, as his nmm is among the best I've seen.

One way of increasing contrast is to add different tones to the shadows from the highlights. Sprocket does this extremely well with his nmm. To take some examples from my own work, I added blue to the shadows of the axer's orange skin, and added red to the shadows of Nemo's (blue) nmm armor. (I'm not as good at this as Sprocket, and my results are a bit subtle, especially in the pictures.) It looks like you are painting everything except the gold by simply using lighter and darker shades of the same hue. For the next mini you paint, try throwing some contrasting hues into some of the shadows.

2. Add some textures. The scratches on the sword are a nice touch, but I'd like to see more texture elsewhere on the model. Maybe some more damage elsewhere on the armor, and possibly some corrosion. You could add a few nicks and cuts to the skin if you want it to look like he's celebrating after a hard-won victory. Maybe make the leather on the belt old and worn, or add some of the texture of the weave to the cloth (since I picture trolls using fairly roughly woven fabric). A tartan pattern would be one way to add interest to the sash as others have suggested, but even just adding some texture to the fabric might be enough to make it not look so plain.

3. I feel like you're putting more time and energy into some parts than others. The sword blade, in particular, is very well done. For a competition mini, you should really be bringing everything up to that level (or even higher)—don't cut any corners.

4. The face seems weak. The face is a natural focal point, so you really want to make sure it stands out. Again, bring up the contrast to emphasize the wrinkled brow, and be careful to individually highlight and shade all of the bumps on his chin. You might put some fleshtones into the highlights of the skin or around the mouth to add interest. This goes along with my suggestions in point 1, but it's particularly important for the face. Also, what's with the eyes? It looks like he has no pupils.

Best of luck for next year! I hope you decide to enter again, and keep improving.

[Jonny4square]

@ Althai Your feedback is always welcome. I feel like when I push my highlights lighter and my shadows darker that it looks way too exaggerated should it look that way? Thank you for the link btw he does some amazing NMM, I'll have to do some studying. Yes I will take you up on that offer Althai next time we meet a beer would be nice

I really appreciate all of the feedback I have been getting lately. Its been not only a huge eye-opener but also helps me want to strive to do better.

[Wishing]

I could also see the use of GW pieces leading to disqualification as a precautionary measure on PPS' part to avoid any hassle (no matter how pointless or merited) from GW. Annoy one painter and you have an angry painter....annoy GW and you have a legal battle that win or lose (more win lately than lose, true) costs money, which leads to headaches for all.

I don't get it. How could it possibly be a legal issue to use GW parts on a model in a painting contest? How does this infringe on GW's rights or lose them any profit?

@ Althai Your feedback is always welcome. I feel like when I push my highlights lighter and my shadows darker that it looks way too exaggerated should it look that way?

This is quite an existential question, isn't it? If you personally don't think that dark shadows looks good, then how can you paint that way? I guess it's a conflict between painting for yourself and painting for the contest judges, when you know that judges will prefer something you don't prefer yourself... difficult.

[althai]

@ Althai Your feedback is always welcome. I feel like when I push my highlights lighter and my shadows darker that it looks way too exaggerated should it look that way?

Take a look at how 2-d artists do it. I generally try to make the differences between highlights and shadows match what they would be in a 2-d painting of the same subject. If you highlight and shade to that level, put the highlights and shadows in the right places (appropriate to zenithal lighting), and keep the transitions smooth, it shouldn't look exaggerated.

However, if you're worried about too much light/dark contrast, try my other suggestion about the hues.

[EtherealPaints]

You should have snapped the spikes off the base and handed the model back to them to be judged . Great work on the figure. I would state my opinions more thoroughly, but they've already been covered a fair amount in the thread. So I'll just +1 the points that Althai brought up.

[Ironbite]

This is excellent work in my opinion. Blends are so smooth and the model has tons of charecter. Well done.

[The Antipope]

1. Increase the contrast, on everything. "Higher highlights, deeper shadows." (I've certainly had that phrase beaten into my own head enough times. :P) The skin looks flat, and parts of the nmm (like the gold on the sword) don't read well as metal. I recommend checking out Sprocket's illustrated guide to painting nmm armour, as his nmm is among the best I've seen.

Arithon, that is a fantastic blog you provided a link to. I suggest anyone take a look at it.

[komodokeeper]

I don't get it. How could it possibly be a legal issue to use GW parts on a model in a painting contest? How does this infringe on GW's rights or lose them any profit?

It's not the actual infringement, it's the perceived infringing on 3rd party rights, particularly in GWs case, that may be contested. Some companies will go to great lengths to protect IPs, and GW has lost quite a few cases recently that would make them protect anything that's theirs. (laymen's terms: I was simply saying avoiding issues that may be on any other companies radar, in this case GW, could potentially avoid a hassle farther down the road. Many companies would love to see their stuff elsewhere, but GW would not).

But, my previous statements do rely on GW overreacting (history notwithstanding), and no, I do not think the policy is just against GW, but they (in the past) have been the most vocal; thus, i was inferring avoiding GW stands out more than,say, avoiding Wyrd.

Anyhow, The case could also be made that disqualifying GW part on a PPS mini in a PPS competition, is to be sure that the judges see the PPS brand represented and not the competitor. At this time, there are no PPS scenic bases, so allowing 3rd party bases and basing material is appropriate. However, this may change...much like what happened with the GF9 tokens....then again, if it's basing material...how can you tell.

In related news, I have been frequently told, in the local comp scene, that I was skipped over because of my color choices on a mini...is this the same as the 'Higher highlights' and 'lower shadow' thing?