Legion and the Stormwall

[simplygnome]

So I'd like to discuss different tactics we plan on using when faced with Cygnar's newest toy: the Stormwall, and, presumably, a bit of ranged support with some Storm[noun] infantry screening units.

With a majority of our lists really emphasizing delivering our amazing beasts to combat, the thought of them not making it to their target is a sad one. I'd like to make a list of various "difficulties" that SW might provide Legion, and how might get over each of them. Please feel free to respond to as many or as few as you'd like, but remember each trait of the Stormwall doesn't exist in a vacuum in regards to the others.

While I'm not looking at specific game sizes, realize that at medium point games, Colossals provide great Focus efficiency for the casters, and of course seem to shine just as much as the points increase.

No DOOM here, just tactics we'd like to try as these beautiful (and seemingly powerful) models hit play....

Stormwall Traits
1) Its templates, Colossal power attacks, and Lightning pods are excellent anti infantry. While this is good for us, as we can get so much from our beasts, it means a normal Kallus list and/or Swordsmen charge are unlikely to be the answer against it.

2) Two high power, long range guns mean efficient focus fire on a single target. The beast mechanics are great at taking a beating and healing up to mostly full efficiency. Focus firing down one at a time is a great way to win at attrition.

3) The extra large base and immunity to movement (Bolt Throwers/Slams/etc) gives an interesting screening option for the more far away Cygnar casters (read as: MOST of them =P). Combined with its range, just "outmaneuvering it" might not be the best option as we will still be forced to move towards it, or get ranged bit by bit, scenario aside of course.

4) Mechanics ... ever so scorned by many Cygnar (or WM) players, can get many around the large base, and make our Ravagore (or rather - 2 Ravagore) vs SW trade a bad one on our side.

5) Lightning pods seem an interesting way to block charge lanes, even if not used as anti-infantry.

6) Arcane Shield will put this bad boy up to 22, to contend with our Ravagores in Shooty attrition.

Caster Support
6) Kara Sloan - Makes the model more accurate and can contribute a decent amount of damage. See #2, and it seems we might have a dead Carni Chassi in one round (potentially)
7) Siege - The SW range could potentially force us forward to initiate...right into his feat.
8) pHaley - We get caught not being able to charge the SW, leaving the Scythean out of the running and potentially dead if it tried to initiate.
9) pStryker has both Arcane Shield and Snipe to rotate, while his feat will make a put assassination harder and our "charge turn" much harder (19arm+3as+5feat = 27 arm).

Model Support
10) Hunters - See #2, excellent focus fire for our heavies
11) Defender - See #2. Just so good at putting long range shots into the beasts.

This doesn't cover everything, just some ideas. So what are everyone's thoughts? I'm excited to have to play Shadow of the Colossus on table top and want to start planning my strategies now.

[agent red]

Abby. Blight field should neuter it to the point where its not going to be able to solo one of our beasts in a turn, which with her feat quite coincidentally means its not likely to be killing any of them. Cycling forced evo should give you all the punch you're likely to need to break it down at a reasonable clip.

Vayl. Cast incite, apply heavies/ giggle.

[simplygnome]

Abby. Blight field should neuter it to the point where its not going to be able to solo one of our beasts in a turn which, with her feat that quite coincidentally means its not likely to be killing any of them. Cycling forced evo should give you all the punch you're likely to need to break it down at a reasonable clip.

Vayl. Cast incite, apply heavies/ giggle.

In both of those cases, its getting the caster THERE to apply those spells. By that time, I can see a large possibility of a very wounded or possibly dead heavy.

However I do agree, Abbys Blight Field looks like an awesome way to drop its effectiveness.

[agent red]

Sw has a walking threat of 19 on its big guns, Abby clocks in at 19 with field. Also has the option of setting up a sack pawn charge which would still let her just about break even with the sw even with snipe.

[simplygnome]

Sw has a walking threat of 19 on its big guns, Abby clocks in at 19 with field. Also has the option of setting up a sack pawn charge which would still let her just about break even with the sw even with snipe.

Fair enough, I can see that. I'm used to playing Abby back during the first two turns and only moving her up during mid/late game. That makes sense though.

[sleet01]

Under the Stormwall Traits, put "Throws can destroy two beasts at once." My Stormwall was able to throw a slightly-damaged Scythean into a slightly-damaged Carnivean from 6" away from the Scythean and 14" away from the Carnivean, killing the Scythean with boosted damage and leaving the Carnivean so beaten that two Stormcalls (facilitated by the Lightning Pod) finished it off. I'm not sure that multiple-wave tactics with melee heavies will work effectively against that sort of two-handed throw range.

Under Model Support, put the Avenger. Stall and RNG 10 (14" threat), 4" KD templates in the faction with ready access to RNG and RAT boosts is a great help to the Stormwall's generally low accuracy. If you can grant immunity to KD or very high DEF (eg with Forced Evolution) to beasts then this is less of a concern.

Absylonia might be the best counter to one Stormwall, but two are going to be a hard nut to crack unless the Cygnar player runs them base-to-base or parallel so you can get Blight Fields on both of them at once. At least pHaley can't nullify Blight Field. It might almost be more effective to use the threat of Blight Field to force the Cygnar player to run Stormwall further back, in which case bypassing him to take out the caster becomes easier.

[new athanc]

PVayl list killed it in one turn but it took all my beast to do it and I lost because I waz so happy I took it out I forgot to pop feat!!! But yeah under incite beast go crazy and ravagores have no engage plenty scythean got great charge 15 damge on it first hit....

[sleet01]

pHaley and eNemo can shut down charges on the Stormwall pretty effectively; have you guys got any SPD buffs or ARM debuffs to offset that?

[agent red]

As a general rule we kinda don't get speed buffs outside of slipstream. Then again it's not like we need them. Assuming pHaley's standing directly behind the thing there's only an awkward one inch band at which a Scythian can't get to the thing, at less then that it can walk forward and engage it with reach, at greater distance it's starting outside her control and it can just man up and charge. Angel's can get to it without much worry even if they have to just hoof it. All the rest are packing heat at range.

[Lachlan the Mad]

Absylonia might be the best counter to one Stormwall, but two are going to be a hard nut to crack unless the Cygnar player runs them base-to-base or parallel so you can get Blight Fields on both of them at once. At least pHaley can't nullify Blight Field. It might almost be more effective to use the threat of Blight Field to force the Cygnar player to run Stormwall further back, in which case bypassing him to take out the caster becomes easier.

I don't think it would be that hard for Abby to drop two blight fields on two Stormwalls unless Cygnar was running one of their really high-focus casters and/or a Squired-up caster. She can usually afford to spend four focus/turn. Of course, this all depends on board positioning, terrain, etc. etc. You're right to say that the threat of Blight Field > the use of Blight Field.

Still, if colossals become more common, Abby becomes more competitive, which is a very very good thing in my book

[simplygnome]

I don't think it would be that hard for Abby to drop two blight fields on two Stormwalls unless Cygnar was running one of their really high-focus casters and/or a Squired-up caster. She can usually afford to spend four focus/turn. Of course, this all depends on board positioning, terrain, etc. etc. You're right to say that the threat of Blight Field > the use of Blight Field.

Still, if colossals become more common, Abby becomes more competitive, which is a very very good thing in my book

Unfortunately, Blight Field may only be cast once per turn, as per rules.

[Lachlan the Mad]

Unfortunately, Blight Field may only be cast once per turn, as per rules.

Damn, missed that one.

[simplygnome]

pHaley and eNemo can shut down charges on the Stormwall pretty effectively; have you guys got any SPD buffs or ARM debuffs to offset that?

Well, Occultation (stealth) on a Scythean might help, with ranged support from Ravagores/Angeli should take it down. Occultation can come from Rhyas or eVayl.

BFS also having stealth can get close to help with Kiss of Lyss/potential WM charges.

With that said, swordsmen can still hurt on a charge, so running a group of swordsmen infront of (or alongside) the Scythean would mean the SW would either use templates OR DD the Scythean. Not a bad option at this time.

[sleet01]

Stealth is definitely a weak area for Stormwall, since all of our anti-stealth is on squishy Gunmages or a couple of low-CTRL-range casters, and SW hasn't got the AOE shots of the other Colossals. The templates help, but if you can go around them or ignore the damage they're much less useful.

After the game my opponent and I discussed ways he could have improved his chances; his first thought was, "not take pVayl." Is she the least-effective against Stormwall's mixed ranged and melee threat?

[katadder]

cygnar is my 2nd faction and stealth really is a thing we have no problem dealing with. fire beacon, gunmages plus UA, even triumph (although i dont see him used).
as for BFS, one use on stormwall then the guy with kiss gets zapped with a lightning pod.
i think these are going to be tough to deal with, lets just hope our archangel is not as bad as the mountain king

[simplygnome]

Stealth is definitely a weak area for Stormwall, since all of our anti-stealth is on squishy Gunmages or a couple of low-CTRL-range casters, and SW hasn't got the AOE shots of the other Colossals. The templates help, but if you can go around them or ignore the damage they're much less useful.

After the game my opponent and I discussed ways he could have improved his chances; his first thought was, "not take pVayl." Is she the least-effective against Stormwall's mixed ranged and melee threat?

Not too sure. Im not a heavy pVayl player, but it seems she has a decent offensive buff to provide to her battle force, it just requires her to be a bit close.

You asked what arm buffs we might have to combat the ranged assault and a carnivean +2 arm isnt a bad option to spread to the heavies as they advance.

This, with the Carnis good melee and vayls +2 to damage incite will put a hurt..and it better or vayl might be dog meat next turn.

Vayl ALSO supports a good mix of melee and ranged so perhaps its just her one advantage, versatility, is "matched" by a mix of Cygnarian casters and SW.

[simplygnome]

cygnar is my 2nd faction and stealth really is a thing we have no problem dealing with. fire beacon, gunmages plus UA, even triumph (although i dont see him used).
as for BFS, one use on stormwall then the guy with kiss gets zapped with a lightning pod.
i think these are going to be tough to deal with, lets just hope our archangel is not as bad as the mountain king

Yes, but I think I can get the BFS up there and do 1 KoL before the pod drops...and thats obviously on damage turn, so should be all I need.

As far as stealth...Im not too worried about most of Cygnars anti stealth except for the one B13 member that can make him targetable, then I need to just take him out, and thats usually not a problem.

Also, lets not count the MK out just yet...but thats for another thread.

[Roktop]

I think pThag is a good answer to SW.

Fog of War to make our heavy hitter beasts def 13 - Requiring aiming or Boosts to hit consistently and effectively.

Boosted armor by spamming Spiny Growth with the Succubus being able to cover 3 beasts a Turn for no fury investment from pThog - Dice minus 5 on damage of the main guns.

Hot Swap Draconic Blessing on 2 heavy's for + 2 Dmg Add in the BFS for another +2 Dmg

If the SW player targets one beast to eliminate it feat and replace it.

Gators advance under Fog and Dirge for Def 15 and tie up / wreck other units

Use Striders to hunt out Stormcallers and other naughty solos.

Thoughts ?

[Mechnomancer]

I played Searyn v. Kraye and two Stormwalls last night. Kraye makes these things gross. One of the ran first turn 20 inches up the board with arcane shield on it. (JR.) nothing I did really could put a dent in these things. I ran to engage one, but Kraye can make them immune to free strikes. He walked back and shot the Scythean to death. Two angels plus BFS still only scratched the paint. My feat was useless. I conceded after losing all my heavies.

I did learn to keep my Deathstalkers back to take out annoying storm pods.

I want to try out my double Carnivean list next.

[agent red]

Could be wrong but I don't believe Kraye has anyway of granting free strike immunity to his jacks. That and the dude's a prime example of angel bait. Don't see why you couldn't just ignore the sw's and go mangle kraye.

[Invaderzahn]

but Kraye can make them immune to free strikes.

No he can't. Kraye has parry himself but I can't think of anything he has that lets 'jacks he controls ignore free strikes.

[Mechnomancer]

I just looked at the book and I'm not seeing it either. I'll have to ask my opponent what that was all about. Not that it mattered. A boosted pow 17 wasn't doing much to ARM 22.

Guided fire on these things is just wrong. If you engage, Kraye pops feat and kills me in melee.

Keep in mind this was my first game against these things. I was using a standard Saeryn list that did not take colossals into account.

[Taslon]

Arlan strange ways gives parry to a jack

[Taslon]

But takin one into account how do we reliably one round it considering sr 2012? I'm liking raptors and anyyssa to run around behind and kill b13, jr and arlan since with 19 points in one model I will control the flanks. Killing the b13 member with flare is a big priority. But it's so list dependent.

[Warcaster Feiss]

I played Searyn v. Kraye and two Stormwalls last night. Kraye makes these things gross. One of the ran first turn 20 inches up the board with arcane shield on it. (JR.) nothing I did really could put a dent in these things. I ran to engage one, but Kraye can make them immune to free strikes. He walked back and shot the Scythean to death. Two angels plus BFS still only scratched the paint. My feat was useless. I conceded after losing all my heavies.

Reading between the lines... a couple of things you may wish to keep an eye out for...

Both Full Tilt (double movement) and Arcane Shield (+3 ARM) are upkeep spells, there's no way Stormwall could have run 20" up the table with Arcane Shield on it (not unless Junior was charging a friendly model to get within AS range of Stormwall...)

'Jacks with Full Tilt on can't make ranged attacks, so if Full Tilt was upkept, he wouldn't have been able to pour shots into the Scythean.


Anywho, back on topic. Just getting into Legion myself, I think that Stormwall in particular does make a good case for Carniveans to start hitting the tables with a bit more regularity (outside Thagrosh1 lists), since the extra pip of P&S helps nickle & dime it.

Hex Hunters are worth bearing in mind too, since Hex Bolt stops the special attacks (so no back-hander slams, half-arc threshers etc). Just need to avoid the guns then.

[Crate123]

pHaley is a problem but if we ignore her for a sec. pLylyth with 2 Angelius+naga nightlurker. She shoots colossal, puts Parasite on it and then puts the naga animus on 1 Angelius, naga outs animus on other Angelius. They will eat that colossal.
Ofcourse the issue is getting there

[PG_speedfreek]

Would that make it armour 7 against the *-attack? (halved, then modified?)

And concerning the idea of using pThag and higher def, wouldn't tenacity-spam for def14 be better than SG?

[muag]

(muag uses fain knowledge) that means its almost a guanteed hit right

[Crate123]

Would that make it armour 7 against the *-attack? (halved, then modified?)

And concerning the idea of using pThag and higher def, wouldn't tenacity-spam for def14 be better than SG?

Yeah you halve first and then add or subtract from the halved armor so the Stormwall would be at Atm 7.

[Defenstrator]

I kind of get the feeling that the reason Legion got the Naga is that without it we couldn't get through some of the ARM stacking on these things. Our beasts can hurt their base ARM, but a Naga will be in more of my lists just to make sure it's base ARM I have to get through.

[Benjihuff]

I played Searyn v. Kraye and two Stormwalls last night. Kraye makes these things gross. One of the ran first turn 20 inches up the board with arcane shield on it. (JR.) nothing I did really could put a dent in these things. I ran to engage one, but Kraye can make them immune to free strikes. He walked back and shot the Scythean to death. Two angels plus BFS still only scratched the paint. My feat was useless. I conceded after losing all my heavies.

I want to try out my double Carnivean list next.

Arcane shield and the speed boost for the 20 inch run are both upkeeps, not sure why he had both.

[Crate123]

I kind of get the feeling that the reason Legion got the Naga is that without it we couldn't get through some of the ARM stacking on these things. Our beasts can hurt their base ARM, but a Naga will be in more of my lists just to make sure it's base ARM I have to get through.

exactly, I have a feeling I will have a hard time not using it once it releases. Its just so damn useful.