Vlad3's Feat - a Trap...?

[Baptism By Ice]

So, I will be the first to admit that this is hiiiiiiiighly premature, but the question is simple - is building to take best advantage of Vlad3's feat a trap? It seems like it would really have some fun implications if performed well (his feat, that is), and yet to try and get as much as possible, you're limiting your options fairly heavily. Is it really worth it to take max uhlans, fenris, and markov, plus possibly more than one jack and MAYBE even a gun carriage or two JUST to try and get the most shenanigans out of that feat as possible? Or should it possibly be considered more just for the one random jack that needs it to bounce around and get lodged into a place that no jack was ever intended to be lodged? Or perhaps as a vehicle to help deliver an unforeseen Vlad assassination run? Maybe it's just something that I need to actually field, but I can't help but look at a list full of cavalry units and reach jacks and think "ooooh boy, this is not a lot of dudes at all". Rather, would it not possibly be better to build a list that takes more advantage from Dash, such as letting IFP/KA out-threat their respective non-dashed brethren...? In my mind, 12" threat IFP are way scarier than 11" threat. Plus, with Dash, MoW are running 10" a turn, which also seems pretty good. Decisions, decisions...

People with any amount of experience, what has been your reaction thus far?

[MediumYellow]

More experienced players have told me to never build an army just around a feat turn. For instance I know a pretty experienced ret player who will never take a bunch of battle mages in his Rahn list.

Keep in mind though, when considering Vlad3, that we will be getting grey lord light cav next year.

[Havock]

It is better to build an army around a spell list than a single-use feat which you may or may not get the most out of.

Dash is great for all our infantry.

Doomies, bears, Kayazy, IFP at SPD7? Yes please.

[RevolverAdamska]

It is better to build an army around a spell list than a single-use feat which you may or may not get the most out of.

Dash is great for all our infantry.

Doomies, bears, Kayazy, IFP at SPD7? Yes please.

IF Uhlans too mate, funny see how PP tryed to kill infantry games and khador got another " i like troops " caster , well anyway imho we got some nice spell for Big B at least

[Auracco]

The only model I would consider auto include with LVlad is Fenris because he gets a lot out of the feat. Probably a Spriggan too but that's because the spriggan is pretty much my go to warjack. Otherwise I don't think the ulhan are necessary for LVlad, they get some nice bonus from the feat but not enough to be auto include.
Dash is nice for pretty much all model who can benefit from it. SPD 5 MoW are a dream come true for a lot of people, spd 9 ulhan are sweet. Dash is just a really nice spell.

[Havock]

IF Uhlans too mate, funny see how PP tryed to kill infantry games and khador got another " i like troops " caster , well anyway imho we got some nice spell for Big B at least

Yeah well, I was merely stating how it was awesome for everyone, not just the cavalry.

Fenris and Vlad3 do seem to be buddies.

[RevolverAdamska]

The only model I would consider auto include with LVlad is Fenris because he gets a lot out of the feat. Probably a Spriggan too but that's because the spriggan is pretty much my go to warjack. Otherwise I don't think the ulhan are necessary for LVlad, they get some nice bonus from the feat but not enough to be auto include.
Dash is nice for pretty much all model who can benefit from it. SPD 5 MoW are a dream come true for a lot of people, spd 9 ulhan are sweet. Dash is just a really nice spell.

Never used MoW cause they lack of pathfinder and often theyr wounds do not worth the slow they are famous for, at least i my meta MoW are jsut wasted points, all the IF units , even Black Dragon will rock hard!

[Octavius_Maximus]

I dont think the Feat is as much as a trap, but it doesnt Shape Vlad. Think of the Feat as a turn where vlad basically gets to kill a huge amount of models on his own.

If other models get to take advantage of it, great.

You should use Vlad as a Dash/Hand of Fate/Terror Jack/ Murder Machine.

[Frege]

Calling things 'Traps' has become pretty trendy over the last few months. There is good argument for Full Throttle or Broadsides being a trap. I'm not sure of the wisdom of labelling things as such especially when they have not been released. I do think the meaning of the term is being diluted by overuse.

Building a list around feat turn is always risky because you only get 1 turn per game under feat. I don't think Vlad3 is only about the feat but I don't think you want to ignore it when building lists. So yes it is a trap to build the feat insofar as it is a trap to building any list around any single spell/feat/rule in isolation.

[PG_Caecus Scius]

The feat effects LVlad himself. He can do stupid things under it. Unlike PVlad where you want to take jacks to benefit from the feat but generally you don't. The thing is, take him, Fenris and a Drakkhun and that is all teh cav you need.

[Baptism By Ice]

The feat effects LVlad himself. He can do stupid things under it. Unlike PVlad where you want to take jacks to benefit from the feat but generally you don't. The thing is, take him, Fenris and a Drakkhun and that is all teh cav you need.

This is more what I was thinking, only possibly replacing the Drakhun with Markov. Getting to get a second warhead strike seems pretty good to me, while the Drakhun seems more like a light jack hunting machine who probably won't get a chance to one-shot anything (thus not getting sprint) outside of anything but a bone chicken. Also, I can't help but think that the one jack to run with Vlad is Beast, assuming that he's an option. With bad positioning on your enemy's part, he can jump to a caster up to 15" away and be swinging three more times at MAT9. Seems pretty good.

I really wish that Vlad3 gave access to some sort of pathfinder, as having to rely on Saxon is really starting to get old. My question then is - if you're using Vlad as an infantry speed boost, beyond HoF, why wouldn't you just take Strakov? Vlad seems like the better assassin, but beyond that point it seems that Strakov does what you're trying to make Vlad do, only better.

[currentlyunknown]

More experienced players have told me to never build an army just around a feat turn. For instance I know a pretty experienced ret player who will never take a bunch of battle mages in his Rahn list.

Keep in mind though, when considering Vlad3, that we will be getting grey lord light cav next year.

Depends on the feat. Gaspy2, Haley2, Kreoss1/2 and some others can have winning builds based around the feat. Admittedly the first 2 just happen to have amazing spell lists and abilities as well, which is why they are considered elite casters generally.

But Vlad3 is more than just a feat. I think his feat and his spell list synergize fairly well. The overall speed/mobility of his lists is rather daunting. It's not Kraye, but it's not far off.

[OrsusSmash]

I really wish that Vlad3 gave access to some sort of pathfinder, as having to rely on Saxon is really starting to get old. My question then is - if you're using Vlad as an infantry speed boost, beyond HoF, why wouldn't you just take Strakov? Vlad seems like the better assassin, but beyond that point it seems that Strakov does what you're trying to make Vlad do, only better.

Bear in mind: Vlad3 has Relentless Charge, and so do the Uhlans, so you aren't too bad on Pathfinder if you decide to use them. I still don't know why they didn't give Relentless Charge to Markov, but there's no changing that now. Saxon is definitely going to be valuable to ensure that Fenris/the Drakun don't get gummed up in the terrain, and there's the added benefit of Saxon being a great objective holder (very helpful when the rest of your army is racing off to stab things.)

Regarding Vlad3 vs. Strakov, there's one huge difference: Vlad3 doesn't need to expose himself nearly as much as Strakov does to give his army bonuses. Strakov has to stick his neck out in order to leverage his feat, and that frequently leaves him in a really dangerous position. Moveover, after you pop your feat you have zero ways of boosting your infantry's threat range, and it's tricky to get the Overrun moves necessary to really catapult your warjacks forward. So you get one big turn, and on that turn you better win the game because Strakov is usually cheeks in the wind, and you also just shot off your big trick.

Vlad3 is much more sustainable; if you don't need the hit-and run of the feat, you can cast Dash to get a speed boost any turn you want. Similarly, Vlad3's feat actually enables further engagements by allowing your army to potentially hit and run, whereas Strakov's feat buries you in the opponent's grille in a gamble for victory.

Also, it is impossible to undervalue Hand of Fate. I've been on a Strakov kick recently, and I've been having a great time using him, but there's one glaring issue that I keep running into: he does absolutely jack-all for buffing his army outside of one warjack. While Khador's infantry have statlines that make this approach feasible, it definitely gets rough when you start running into solid defensive numbers, or enemy defensive buffs. Being able to toss around Hand of Fate to fudge the math is a huge boon, and it means that Vlad3's approach to the game is a lot more reliable than Strakov's.

For the record, I don't necessarily think one is better than the other; I haven't played both of them to form an opinion. But I do know from playing a few months of Strakov games that having a sustainable approach to the game is a lot stronger than having a risky-but-potentially-powerful "burst" approach.

Also, to answer the OT question: I don't think that Vlad3's feat is a "trap," but I do think with our current model selection it is not the safest approach to go cavalry heavy to try to "maximize" his feat. Really, all you need to take advantage of Vlad3's feat are:

1) Fenris - lawnmower with his feat,
2) Markov - potentially two Warhead charges, and another solid anti-heavy attack, and
3) Vlad3 himself - assassination potential with Side Steps, infantry mulching with Flashing Blade

Any other cavalry you bring will probably be helpful (ex. Uhlans are heavy hitters with built in Pathfinder, and a solid resistance to the stuff that pops one wound infantry,) but going "all cavalry" right now is really dangerous because we don't have a cavalry solution that does a good job of mitigating the most problematic infantry for cavalry: weaponmaster units (Banes, Dawnguard Sentinels, Exemplars.)

If the Greylord Outriders bring along a solid anti-infantry tool (please PP, Frostbite + Battle Wizard!) then an "all cavalry" list becomes significantly more viable, and honestly pretty dangerous/hilarious on Vlad3's feat turn.

[x3tsniper]

Vlad3
Behemoth
Great Bears of Gallowswood (3)
Iron Fang Uhlans (Leader and 4)
Kovnik Markov
Koldun Lord
Fenris
Man-o-War Drakhun (+Dismount)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt
Wishnailer
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution
Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator(yay one point models!)

Dash, HoF, and his feat make the Uhlans absolutely brutal. With the feat, it gives you the option of going after infantry if you really want to, but I would save them for Vlad to get blood quenched, and then back out. This lets you send your Uhlans after jacks, which they absolutely drop with ease. This list brings massive hitters from all sides, and lets you use vlad3 to clean up infantry spam. If they have a juicy bit of it, you may consider having HoF on vlad himself.

First turn I cast HoF, Windwall, and Infernal Machine. I let Infernal Machine drop after the first run, and just used him to bombard things and sit behind the objective marker on the supply scenario.

Honestly on his feat turn, I forgot to sprint, but the Sidestep was pretty big in letting me hop around further into their lines. When you can't charge the Uhlan from the line behind what he charged, it makes them much harder to kill. Then the next time dash is up, they just charge sideways out of melee or run. It was very effective.

Four games with him now, and I have lost once to t4 abs list where I played vlad way to far backfield, scared that there was no infantry for him to kill, fell short by an inch for scenario victory on this one.

I think his feat is not a trap unless you are trying to use jacks for it. On the other hand it works okay with one reach jack with infernal machine if you are playing regular infantry, but I still wouldn't say it is great. He is a great caster and he really does work well with a ton of cavalry. I look forward to seeing my list once the outriders are released.

[PG_LunarSol]

I think it depends on how you want to run Vlad3. You can run him with a bunch of Cav and use his feat eKaya style to hit really hard and retreat to hopefully get a second alpha. Personally, I think this is really the only application of the feat with Uhlans, which is somewhat limiting, but not necessarily a bad idea. The main issue is simply that Uhlans can't use Side Step very well, so Sprint is really your focus.

The other option is to lean on the Side Step portion of the feat, which means using Vlad himself more. Personally, this is more the style I'm comfortable to run, as I can run a Wind Wall limo behind some Dashed IFP and bank the feat for when I see an opening.

[TheRascalKing]

I think it would be fun to try and bulldoze a clear assassination path for Vlad3 with an infernal machined Spriggan. It charges 9", sidesteps 2", sidesteps 2", Sprints 6". You're bound to clear a decent assassination path with 19" of bulldoze goodness. Though it might get a little tricky pushing things around and is probably a little silly.

[John of Arc]

It's as much a trap as Vlad1's feat. Probably less, since he can support a bunch of cavalry better than he can support 3+ warjacks. If you really want to build around it, you probably can and still do well as long as you don't rely on the feat to be good.

[Auracco]

Just a quick question, is dash Friendly warrior models or Frendly Faction model. Because going with the all cav theme EAlexia could be nice with him especially if dash is only friendly models. EAlexia would not get any bonus from the feat but she could double dip with dash, she gets to move 1 more inch and the thrall warriors would also get to charge 1 more inch, not anything game breaking but it allow for some interesting vectors, especially since Alexia herself would never be stuck where you don't want her to be.

[OrsusSmash]

Just a quick question, is dash Friendly warrior models or Frendly Faction model.

Dash is "Friendly Faction warrior models."

If only you could attach Valachev to Alexia2.

[Baptism By Ice]

Also, not quite the same topic, but while I have people's attention - what is the timing between flashing blade and the feat? Can Vlad feat, charge in, kill a guy with the hits with the charge attack, flashing blade, THEN side step? Or does he NEED to side step immediately as a result of the charge attack, disallowing for the casting of spells between the attack resolution and the side step...?

I seem to recall that with Fenris makign berserk attacks that, if he chooses to use it, he MUST side step prior to making his berserk attack(s), correct...?

[Auracco]

Well side step happens on a hit and you can't interrupt an attack to cast a spell so I think you must resolve it like that: hit, move from sidestep, deal damage, cast spell.

[OrsusSmash]

Looking at the wording on Side Step in Vlad3's feat, it says "...after the attack is resolved [this model] can advance 2"."

Not sure how that interacts with Berserk, but I think you would be able to cast a spell in between the resolution of the attack, and the Side Step movement.

[x3tsniper]

On the rules forum people told me I could not interrupt side step movement to cast flashing blade. I am sure it is stated somewhere in the timing resolution, but I was being lazy with my search fu.
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...Flashing-Blade

Well side step happens on a hit and you can't interrupt an attack to cast a spell so I think you must resolve it like that: hit, move from sidestep, deal damage, cast spell.

You do not move until after you have rolled damage. While Sidestep triggers on hit, it doesn't happen until after the attack is resolved.

Also note, that models that kill an enemy model with an impact attack and fail the charge, still get to sprint.
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=sprint+impact

[Aggroculture]

Are gun carrage in Vlad3 teir list i hear its real restrictive

[OrsusSmash]

Are gun carrage in Vlad3 teir list i hear its real restrictive

To answer your question: yes.

And actually, Vlad3's theme list is actually really open, it's just limited in scope (basically only allows cavalry models.)

As it doesn't specifically name which cav units/solos you can bring, it will be able to grow as Khador gets new releases. Which is a lot better than some of our theme lists, which have very little room for growth as we move forward with new books.

[OMM_Lukav]

I found out yesterday from my PG who was at L&L that the new units for the next WM book were actually ready rule-wise for Colossal and production limitations are the main reason we didn't see them yet. So there are probably some goodies in the next book that were meant to be used with Vlad3 in playtesting that we haven't seen yet.

As a point of fact, the PG said there are a number of items (not mentioned specifically) coming in the next book that synergize with items in Colossal (and to a lesser extent Wrath) that will really up the level of their play and use.

[Kurb]

I found out yesterday from my PG who was at L&L that the new units for the next WM book were actually ready rule-wise for Colossal and production limitations are the main reason we didn't see them yet. So there are probably some goodies in the next book that were meant to be used with Vlad3 in playtesting that we haven't seen yet.

As a point of fact, the PG said there are a number of items (not mentioned specifically) coming in the next book that synergize with items in Colossal (and to a lesser extent Wrath) that will really up the level of their play and use.

Friend of mine said next book will be huge.

[PG_LunarSol]

I found out yesterday from my PG who was at L&L that the new units for the next WM book were actually ready rule-wise for Colossal and production limitations are the main reason we didn't see them yet. So there are probably some goodies in the next book that were meant to be used with Vlad3 in playtesting that we haven't seen yet.

As a point of fact, the PG said there are a number of items (not mentioned specifically) coming in the next book that synergize with items in Colossal (and to a lesser extent Wrath) that will really up the level of their play and use.

This doesn't surprise me at all. With bits of Wrath still unreleased and so little of Domination put out beforehand, it definitely wasn't time to announce a dozen new models. The book probably wouldn't be timed well until at least the end of the year if it was a full release, and by then the Colossals themselves wouldn't get the kind of release hype I'm sure PP wants. The thinness of Colossals is almost certainly because most of the book's manufacturing time got eaten up by last year's efforts to get more core models to stores.

[OrsusSmash]

I found out yesterday from my PG who was at L&L that the new units for the next WM book were actually ready rule-wise for Colossal and production limitations are the main reason we didn't see them yet. So there are probably some goodies in the next book that were meant to be used with Vlad3 in playtesting that we haven't seen yet.

As a point of fact, the PG said there are a number of items (not mentioned specifically) coming in the next book that synergize with items in Colossal (and to a lesser extent Wrath) that will really up the level of their play and use.

I can totally see that. Considering how much something like the Greylord Outriders can do for Vlad3, I'm very excited to see what the next batch of releases will do for our stable.

Also a great thing that PP releases stuff outside of just the book cycles (NQ previews, even Insider rule spoilers,) because we won't need to wait a year to get our new toys!