What DOES Mountain King have going for it?

[raizieldragon]

I tried to find the plusses for MK over, say Mulg, and the only thing I could come up with were Power Attacks, since his Str is higher, and he has a couple more he can use, including 2-handed throws.

I understand there's plenty of stuff people don't like about him, so try to stick to just the positives, or at least only post negatives if you have some positives to also contribute.

[ColdYinTiger]

Positives
Free whelps, an extremely powerful spray, Amuck to boost all of its power attacks to get a lot of use out of those sweeps. Ability to hide a lot of things with its size. A bullet magnet that puts Mulg to shame. A sweet, massive model.

Negatives.
Feels like something is missing, like extra ranged attacks or some extra ability, like even more ways to regenerate its health. Also while the 5 on the spray is a big step over 4 the 5 on mat seems extremely out of place, as if it should really be a 6. The most expensive model in the game currently.

[Mercykiller]

He has the Gargantuan rules in addition to what you listed, aka can't be moved out of activation (laugh at people with TK), Pathfinder, 2" Reach, cannot be slammed/thrown/pushed/knocked down/made stationary as well as the longest spray template in the game. That's at least something no amount of warbeasts for similar points can do (the whole package, and specifically the move-immune stuff). Whether that's enough or not ... I think that's up to the person running it.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Free Whelps. Very Nice Sculpt. Rules unfamiliarity (the element of surprise). Spray 10 is nice

[Crate123]

Im gonna go with awesome model!

[Mercykiller]

Yes. The model is indeed awesome enough to override many bad rules

[zor]

He makes eDoomy a little stronger for scenario and assassination. He can play transfer target for someone like eMadrak or Borka to make them pretty tough. An immune to knockdown/range attack DEF 17/ARM 19 Warlock with 5 Transfers is pretty good. Def 14/ARM 17 Warlock with a take-up chain and 4 transfers is pretty good too. EGrissel is pretty baller with it too...I could go on.

[PG_Celedor]

I am loving the potent sprays we've been getting. That's the first thing I thought looking at his rules.

With our fat azz medium infantry and opponent model positioning and the in-melee range attack penalty combined with our short ranges, more sprays suit my style at least.

Between Son's, Rok, and KtM we have access to some awesome range attacks that overcome some gaps in the strength of our range game.

[cryptomancer]

Masses of Whelps are useful in many ways. Exploitable for blocking charges, helping other Warbeasts, managing Fury loads, all of it. I'm still just trying to wrap my head around the Whelp exploits, which I belive will be extensive. He's probably got more healing potential than any other Gargantuan thanks to Snacking (does he get to Snack on Sweeps?), and one of the best ranged weapons in the game. And high ARM, easily buffable to truly scary levels (am I the only one who imagines him and Mulg at ARM:23 and an Earthborn at ARM:22 all standing within 2" of a Janissa wall?)

That being said, to really shine, he needs babysitting. A KSB is basically mandatory now, which is a shame. The Mauler too, since STR:15 Sweeps are the lowest POW we've yet seen on anything that big. I'd even consider taking an extra 2 points of Whelps in a Solo slot, just to double up. An average 4 pips healed for every hit he receives is a big, big deal, especially at ARM:21 (remember, KSB). And I'm finally going to have to get/convert a Thrullg (I'm thinking Skaldi, carrying one trussed up over his shoulder) for Upkeep dispersal. Normally I don't really care about enemy Upkeeps; I have enough units/beasts that taking one or two out of the fight with Upkeeps is no big deal. But 20 points disabled with one spell is not fun times.

However, with the propper babysitting, he's a monster. We've got plenty of access to Knockdowns thanks to Grim, Calandra, the Impaler, the Thumper, Gunnbjorn, etc, and while Steady is a more prominent rule than it used to be it's by no means universal. That makes the Spray quite dangerous, to say nothing of throws.

A Raged POW:18/19 (remember, KSB!) Sweep is as dangerous as most buffed Heavy 'jack weapons. His plain ol' Big Meaty Fist attacks are nothing to sneeze at either, especially Raged. Warlocks like Madrak2 give him the ability to swipe at everything within 2" of that big base of his twice a turn. And of course our latest Light, the Storm Troll, can pretty much give him the Stormwall's fists.

What the King really, really needs to shine is accuracy buffs. He's pretty darn powerful, and survivability is nice, but he's SPD:5. He needs to get into the action. We've got tons of ways to accelerate our models, but not nearly enough methods to increase Warbeast accuracy, especially considering his solidly mediocre MAT score.

I've started to think of the King less as a big Mauler, less as a buff Mulg, and more as a weird big brother to the Bomber. It's a concept that's a little alien to me but seems to present more options.

-crypto

[FranzGrenstein]

He has terror...does that help?

[cryptomancer]

He has terror...does that help?

Well, thanks to the enormous base size and Reach, he can effectively Terrorize more models/units per activation I guess...

-crypto

[LichLordVexing]

Sexy Primal Shocks ftw!

[FranzGrenstein]

You want to know the sad scary part, I feel more confident in the MK than Hyperion.

[Goris]

You want to know the sad scary part, I feel more confident in the MK than Hyperion.

That is the craziest thing I have heard yet. Crit consume is kind of insane...

[PG_LunarSol]

Kill Shot is actually a big deal. A 10" Spray off a charge can catch a caster pretty easily and unlike Assault you don't need to get a perfect line to hit what you want. You do need to kill something, but he's got enough Fury to boost what's important to get it off.

I do wish PP would get away from the idea that bigger things are easier to dodge. That guy's fists are large enough if he's swinging through an area they're going to be pretty impossible to avoid no matter how fast you are.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

After a mere two games with him, here's my thoughts:

He has a specific purpose, and he does that purpose well. I'm just not at all convinced that his purpose is worth 20 freaking points.

The way I see it: The Mountain King is meant to be a rebounder. He's meant to take it on the chin, survive with a handful of boxes, then between gobbling whelps and snacking, he heals back to full and gets to go nuts again.

The problem with that is that he's not that hard to one round. though the kriel stone helps(and is practically required), 48 boxes isn't that hard to pick through.

The spray is pretty incredible, and the stacking with kill shot is pretty cool. So yeah, he's a tougher Mulg that rains whelps, has a spray and cool power attacks for 8 points more. Is that worth it? I'll get back to you on that.

[cryptomancer]

Like I keep saying, he needs a babysitter or two. Of course, we have buffs aplenty in our army, I just can't stand pieces where I can parctically pin-point the moment in development and playtesting where some guy went "yeah, but if you take him with this Warlock and that Heavy and give him this spell and that animus and he has this feat and that charge target OMGEEEEEE!!!"

-crypto

[PG_thegreatblah]

POW 15 primal shock, that can hit an enemy from 27" away.
Amuck on an Axer
Giant durable beast to xfer to and block los to your caster.

There are quite a few more positives already listed

[PG_petegrrrr]

The problem with axer buffing is that he basically fills the exact same roll (infantry clearing) for 20 points, so taking another 6 points of infantry clearing with your 20 point infantry clearing model seems like a crap ton of eggs in one basket.

[HellecticMojo]

he almost makes sure foot a brokenly good spell.
RAT 5 on a spray is pretty damn powerful when it's 10" and can be boosted when it's by default stronger than Gunnbjorn's bazooka.

seriously, why is his bazooka so damn weak as a gun? /off topic

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

The problem with axer buffing is that he basically fills the exact same roll (infantry clearing) for 20 points, so taking another 6 points of infantry clearing with your 20 point infantry clearing model seems like a crap ton of eggs in one basket.

Yeah, but they both love each others buffs. Axers love Amuck, and mountain kings love Rush. It is a lot of points, but they benefit mutually.

[Goris]

Don't tell him that. We like our closed minded Grrr just the way he is...

[PG_petegrrrr]

The fact that they buff each other is irrelevant, since they do the exact same job. At 20 points, I shouldn't need ANOTHER 6 points to do the same job the 20 should be doing. That makes very little sense.

If one of the pros of a 20 point model is that including it lets you buff a 6 point model to do the same job, then that's really just a knock on the 20 point model, since apparently it's so mediocre at it's job that it's pros include buffing much cheaper models to do the same thing.

Besides, I'm not close minded, I just call stuff as it I see it. Hell, I was on the RoK bandwagon day 1 when he was still getting downplayed by most players, and I was one of, if not the, first players to point out his amazing synergy with Gunny lists.

I think outside the box on occasion. But sometimes a box is just crappy, and I have no problem saying "Hey...your box...it's kinda garbage"

[Goris]

Man my sarcasm text is broken these days. I apparently need to go back to the happy everything and everyone Goris everyone loves...

[PG_petegrrrr]

I wasn't offended, just pointing out that I do discover/help discover the occasionally wacky synergy in semi-maligned models on occasion for those that may not be used to our banter

[Sheer_Falacy]

Arm 21 with stone, effective arm 23 if he survives due to whelp healing, or effective arm 25 with EBDT + Janissa + stone + surviving. It's a lot of points, but think about what lists can one round an arm 23 model. If they can't one round it, it's effective arm 25... that's a closed devastator. Not dying is pretty effective. Also, it's a lot of points spent on other models that you want to take anyway.

[Goris]

I didn't think that was the case since most of the time we poke fun at one another anyway.

[The Happy Anarchist]

There are a couple of keys to getting full use out of him I feel.

Immovable - your only option is killing it. At ARM 23 it can be difficult for some factions/lists to kill - especially if you take out one of their heavies/colossals with a first strike. More on this later.

Power Attacks - Specifically power attacks from 2" away. Granted you are using a 20 point model for a small number of attacks, but they can easily be game winning with targeted Power Strikes, two hand throws and the like. Amuck boosts all attack rolls, including the throw in the two handed throw for 1 fury as well, which helps.

The Pow 16 spray - especially with Kill Shot and power attacks - they are melee attacks and do trigger Kill Shot. A key thing will be to keep an eye on power solos that you can charge infantry, kill shot and kill the solo.

Primal Shock - Pow 15 Primal Shocks for 2 fury are nuts, and eDoomy fixes Mat and Spd for him, with free animus helping his killing power and survivability. He also helps protect Doomy, though I am not sure it is more than Mulg does yet.

5" base and things that base off of it. Like Surefoot.

Downsides are Mat 5, relatively few boxes for the cost in points, easy to jam up your list, not a lot of offensive output for the cost.

I think there is potential, but it is going to be a corner case model. It does do seem to do that cornercase decently with eDoomy - still going to test with Gunny tier. It is also funny with pMadrak and Surefoot.

[blindwitness]

Taking MK with eMadrak you could get 3 shots with that 10 inch spray on feat turn. If you put rush on him and trampled forward thats a 20" threat for 3 power 16s, provided there was something in the way for him to trample or within 2" at the end of the trample for him to kill.

[PG_petegrrrr]

No you can't I'm afraid.

He can only ever spray once during his activation, which means eMadrak could make him spray twice, and the feat spray cannot be boosted

He cannot make more than 1 spray during his turn, because kill shot only triggers on melee attacks, and he cannot make melee and ranged attacks in the same activation without using kill shot

[Goris]

The regardless of ROF tid bit at the end makes you think otherwise. Not sure if that's going to lead to something later...

[hooligantuesday]

Arm 21 with stone, effective arm 23 if he survives due to whelp healing, or effective arm 25 with EBDT + Janissa + stone + surviving. It's a lot of points, but think about what lists can one round an arm 23 model. If they can't one round it, it's effective arm 25... that's a closed devastator. Not dying is pretty effective. Also, it's a lot of points spent on other models that you want to take anyway.

Okay i'm curious, how exactly is he getting 2 extra armour from whelp healing?

[Edwars]

Okay i'm curious, how exactly is he getting 2 extra armour from whelp healing?

It is a little confusing but it works on the following
The MK can eat a whelp and thus gain a minimum of 1 damage back, thus to ensure that the mountain king remains damaged, your opponent needs to do an additional pt of dmg above his armour.

For instance, the mountain king is arm 19, thus to do dmg an opponent needs to reach pow 20+ (P+S+dice). However, due to the possibility of healing a minimum of 1dmg from a whelp this is increased to 21. If he has two whelps per attack, it becomes 22.

[Sheer_Falacy]

Okay i'm curious, how exactly is he getting 2 extra armour from whelp healing?

What Edwars said.

If you roll and get 29 total damage, vs 23 armor, 6 gets through, and he spawns a whelp. If he survives and the whelp survives (and if you're worried about enemies killing whelps more than about them killing the MK, you can put it behind him), then he heals an average of 2, so the attack only really did 4 damage. That's equivalent to +2 armor.

Plus if the enemy attack only does 1 damage, they just effectively healed you for 1 point.

[PG_Morsla]

That wording is standard for models with the ability - like "may purchase additional melee attacks" on models with Drag. The rules for Collosals (and Gargantuans, when the book comes out) will likely reinforce the "may not make Ranged and Melee attacks in the same activation" rule that's part of the core mechanics.

I'm actually looking forward to playing some games with Madrak1 when I get my Mountain King - I haven't used him for years, but a swarm of DEF 14 kriel warriors (in that huge Surefoot bubble, with lots of Cabers to help deal with higher-DEF heavy beasts) will be a good screen for the gargantuan, and look good too. As long as you can survive the alpha strike by blocking some charge lanes, you should be able to do a lot of retaliatory damage.

[R.J.]

Okay i'm curious, how exactly is he getting 2 extra armour from whelp healing?

I think he means: every attack that damages is going to make a whelp, if MK survives he's going to heal an average of 2 points per Whelp, so it's like he was taking two less damage per attack to begin with.

[EDIT -- ninja'ed!]

[R.J.]

The regardless of ROF tid bit at the end makes you think otherwise. Not sure if that's going to lead to something later...

Like Epic Angus having a spell that hands out Virtuoso? *crosses fingers*

[wargrim]

He gives Gunny a unstoppable, high-powered SPR10 with enough melee punch for heavys. And he is even in the tier-list.

POW15 primal shock is neat.

His special power attacks and 2" reach for power attacks give some possibilities for Borkas feat.

Jarl has nearly no way to miss him to trigger magic bullet and with ARM19 it won't do much damage.

Amuk is an absolutely great animus

[Loki77515]

Okay, finally got in a game with him and two POW 15 Primal Shocks killed Kreoss (with no focus). Terror also came into play and made a Vassal flee (though that hardly mattered since the Mount. King ended up eating him during the same activation) and Kill Shot will make for some nice sprays after a charge, or trample or what have you.

MAT 5 is an insult, though. I can't think of any reason for not giving him MAT 6. Yes, we have buffs, but think of enemy de-buffs. Like the Reckoner's Choking Veil, or Gaze of Menoth, or Awe, or anything that buffs defense on an enemy model like Defenders Ward. It just doens't make sense to give him MAT 5.

[FranzGrenstein]

Happy on the downside you missed a 6 threshold.


BTW is the MK considered a Dire Troll? For eDoomy's free animus ability.