Fighting colossals

[Neutralyze]

I thought I would start thi thread for everyone to discuss tactics about fighting colossals and gargantuans.

I played against one today with Abby and with playing god raek and blight field I shut it down for 4 turns without it being able to move either. This can also work against gargantuans due to them having two arcs and having to break the lock with that weapons attempt an wont be able to purchase any more with blight field on them or be able to turn to face.

What are our thoughts or other options people can up with?

[Roktop]

At Lock and Load I faced a Stormwall in a 75 pt. Iron area game V eNemo.

My opponent was inexperienced so I didn't get a real feel for the Stormwalls power

However with pThog it took a full Fury from A Carnivean and 3 more Fury from a Scythean - Hot Swaping Draconic Blessing between them to kill it.

So it ended up almost an equal points Trade.

I think I will put some time in to learn the Black Frost Shard teamed with pVayl for a +4 dmg buff to see what that will do.

Possibly the same BFS combo with pThog for Drac Blessing or Kallus for Ignite

[simplygnome]

There are a few good ideas against the Stormwall specifically being cultivated here .

The main option i'd like to throw out is Occultation from Rhyas or eVayl on a heavy (Scythean) to get it up to a Colossal without harassment...and perhaps to "walk" it up to the SW in case of pHaley/Nemo for the SW specifically.

The BFS can help take it down faster and get there safely.

[ikbuh]

I can only imagine a Scythean (or two) would have a field day against Colossals It pretty much guarantee bloodbath for a free hit then it's just a matter of fury. Wouldn't kill it in one round, but it would certainly hurt it.

[PG_Nemlock]

Wait, did the Raek headlock the colossal? The mental image of that is hilarious.

[Khaunshar]

I think the only problem is going to be dealing with colossals that are fully supported and used by certain warcasters able to further boost their durability.

Warmahordes seems to be a game balanced around the ability of everything can be killed in one turn if you properly set up the trade. Colossals change that paradigm, and under spells like Arcane Shield or other armor buffs they become too tough a nut to crack for even 2 heavies.

The Stormwall, IMO, is going to cause the biggest meta shift. With eHaley, one of the Nemos it will become an extreme headache, to the point where eHaley, 2 Stormwalls, 1 Unit Gunmages and some support looks like an actually viable tournament list, due to the sheer power of that combo, and the few things that will work against properly buffed colossals.

Normally, I d say use Eiryss, but I suspect that having the ability to remove buffs or apply debuffs is going to be even more important than before. If a heavy charges a colossal, hurts it, gets destroyed in return and the thing can be reparied, we are looking at the end of the favorable-trade approach to Warmachine.

For Legion, I am starting to think Saeryns reign has probably come to an end, or requires an entirely different second list which deals with both gunlines AND colossals. Of our tournament casters, she seems worst off due to the lack of both a damage increase on her part, AND no way to protect the BFS in any way, shape or form to deliver KoL. Also, she cant get the Thrullg to a colossal either, so once its buffed with Arcane Shield, thats the end of it.

Kallus is actually not as bad off, due to Ignite and what basically amounts to an immunity to being assassinated by mere blast damage. IMO this cements the use of swordsmen for him for good.

I believe that colossals more than anything else currently in Warmahordes have to be regarded with respect to the caster behind them, as buffs/debuffs and feats are such huge force multipliers on them. A bond on a warjack is good. A bond on a colossal is insanely good. +3 ARM on basically a third of your army, just by casting Arcane Shield on the colossal, is a massive change of dynamics.

[Neutralyze]

Wait, did the Raek headlock the colossal? The mental image of that is hilarious.

I Was waiting for someone to catch that. It arm locked its left arm and with blight field you can keep it locked in place for the entire game if they don't have a way to deal with it. It's pretty powerful!

[Episkopos]

Doesn't Stormwall's crazy high STR mean he just breaks the lock at the beginning of his activation and take his turn as normal (sans movement)?

[PG_Nemlock]

Doesn't Stormwall's crazy high STR mean he just breaks the lock at the beginning of his activation and take his turn as normal (sans movement)?

True, sort of. If say, the left arm was locked, none of the weapons associated with the left arm can be used until that arm is broken free. After the colossal/gargant breaks that arm free with a STR test, it must then force that arm to make an attack with that same arm. So even when the arm is broken free, you're potentially wasting 1 fury to force an attack with that left arm, and another to boost attack as the Raek is pretty good defense. The Raek could easily be turned into paste but it's tying up almost half of the weapon systems on the colossal. Adding in Blight Field means that colossal/gargant cannot be forced, so even when that arm breaks free it hangs there useless. I'm guessing the Raek stuck around so long because the colossal couldn't hit his DEF.

[moob]

@Episkopos: You cannot move while locked, and you have to use an initial attack to break the weapon lock, specifically with the weapon that was locked. Since blight field stops allocation / forcing, they cannot then buy attacks to kill the Raek with the Colossal itself.

Other ways to block locks include placements, becoming incorporeal, and knockdown (none of which can apply to the colossal), so they'd have to do it to the Raek.

[Defenstrator]

I fought the Kraken, Conquest, and Stormwall during Speedmachine at L&L. I was using pVayl with a Ravagore, Angelius, and Typhon. All my opponents got hit by Typhon. The colossals take up a large footprint, but not a long one. You can get around it relatively easily. Plus if they're close you can do the sprays of destiny to hit them right though it.

That's for smaller games of course. But between long sprays and the fact that Strafe ignores intervening models there is definately still assassination potential when they're on the board.

[Episkopos]

I guess I misread the errata on Weapon Lock. I thought it meant you still had all your initial attacks on a successful break and all but your locked weapon on a failed break.

[Lachlan the Mad]

Those giant SPD 4-5 robots?

Go around them. Or over them.

[dmcgr19800]

So for those of you that do not know. A raek with playing god uses it's leap ability to get in the rear arc of a beast / collossal. Then attacks with either a weapon lock or a head lock. All you have to do is hit. The opponents turn the enemy must sacrafice it's movement ( provided the raek is still alive ) and use it's action to break the lock. It cannot attack the raek because it is in the back arc ideally. It can only buy attacks. If the raek is still alive on your next turn rinse and repeat. So you have tied up a nine to nineteen point model with 4 points. To stop this you will have to dedicate another portion of your army points to kill the raek. You also spam this with 2 raeks. When playing god expires the lock is not broken.

[Neutralyze]

True, sort of. If say, the left arm was locked, none of the weapons associated with the left arm can be used until that arm is broken free. After the colossal/gargant breaks that arm free with a STR test, it must then force that arm to make an attack with that same arm. So even when the arm is broken free, you're potentially wasting 1 fury to force an attack with that left arm, and another to boost attack as the Raek is pretty good defense. The Raek could easily be turned into paste but it's tying up almost half of the weapon systems on the colossal. Adding in Blight Field means that colossal/gargant cannot be forced, so even when that arm breaks free it hangs there useless. I'm guessing the Raek stuck around so long because the colossal couldn't hit his DEF.

with playing god and blight field the jack cant be allocated focus so cant turn to face and breaks the lock without making any attack at the raek

[Roadhouse]

Locks only prevent weapons on the locked system being used; why not ignore the Raek and shoot with the guns that aren't on the locked system?

[boingboing]

Has anyone tried the Thrullg with maybe Bayal's shadowbind and a seraph to get them out of melee range? The issue would be safely getting them in position--could try Thagrosh's Fog of War + Death shroud or swamp gobbers and other screening models. I envision some intricate Rube Goldberg plan to try and mess a 19 or 20 point model up with some unused 3 point minion.

Hmm nevermind, guess Colossals are immune to disruption

[katadder]

Locks only prevent weapons on the locked system being used; why not ignore the Raek and shoot with the guns that aren't on the locked system?

pretty much this, I know my stormwall wouldnt be bothered by a raek doing nothing to it. and it the raek is behind stormwall its probably going to get taken down by the caster hiding behind stormwall then you dont even need to worry about breaking the lock.

[JosephKerr]

A Stormwall that can't move and has only 2 guns in one 1/4 arc that cannot boost is not exactly intimidating to play against. This seems a viable combo.

[Ihmeapina]

Colossals don´t have virtuoso, if it uses an initial open fist to break the lock it isn´t shooting.

[katadder]

yeah but it doesnt need to bother breaking the lock, it just shoots instead and ignores the raek doing next to nothing to it.
also raeks are not tough and if its behind the SW then the caster plus other pieces will deal with it freeing up stormwall.

[Thenmy]

yeah but it doesnt need to bother breaking the lock, it just shoots instead and ignores the raek doing next to nothing to it.
also raeks are not tough and if its behind the SW then the caster plus other pieces will deal with it freeing up stormwall.

Actually it does need to do so:

At the beginning of its combat action, a model suffering a headlock/weapon lock must attempt to break the lock. [...] The locked warjack can make its initial attacks with any melee weapons not located in a locked system as normal.

Emphasis mine. If the Raek locks the Stormwall, no shooting for him.

[etherya]

Neutralyze your pm box is full

[Booger]

Well that is hilarious, and we need only dedicate a 4 pt model and however much blightfield costs to do it. Can any other faction even do that, let alone that cheaply?

[Neutralyze]

Cygnar has the minute man and menoth has a vigilant.

My inbox has been cleaned up.

[Deacis]

Woldwatcher for Circle.

edit: 5 pts though. still cheap.

[Booger]

The light beast with an open fist is only half the equation. I am sure Cygnar has abilities that restrict allocating focus/generating fury, does Menoth or Circle have that ability?

I apologize if I am missing something obvious, I am not very familiar with other factions.

[katadder]

Originally Posted by katadderyeah but it doesnt need to bother breaking the lock, it just shoots instead and ignores the raek doing next to nothing to it.
also raeks are not tough and if its behind the SW then the caster plus other pieces will deal with it freeing up stormwall.



Actually it does need to do so:
Originally Posted by Prime p. 52
At the beginning of its combat action, a model suffering a headlock/weapon lock must attempt to break the lock. [...] The locked warjack can make its initial attacks with any melee weapons not located in a locked system as normal.



Emphasis mine. If the Raek locks the Stormwall, no shooting for him.

#

yeah unless something else is done for colossals as warjacks cannot shoot whilst locked as they cant shoot whilst in melee so colossals are different in that they can shoot whilst engaged in melee. i would say a colossal with its arm locked would be able to fire but must break the lock if it wants to do melee. perhaps this will be cleared up in the rules?

put a request for clearance in rules forum, am sure you are right but it doesnt seem right

[DrakkenBlut]

It's funny... when Battle Engines first appeared, it was all "what do we do with it in our army?" and now with Collossi it's "what do we do against it in the opponent's army?"

Blight field and weapon lock are gold. Since a Collossal is such a great buff and debuff target, some things with abilities to clear buffs (eVayl, Thrullg) and debuff (pLyl, BFS) should help.

EOS should work well agains other enemy units near their Collosal. Huge base, low DEF, even pLyl can do it.

WMs should do the trick, if only they didn't die before they got to the Collosal... a metagame shift.

Lastly, it should be easy for a fast army to evade the thing. eThag with Shredder spam should eat the opposing caster on the feat turn, a Collosal is not the shield the equivalent pts in Jacks would be.

[PG_StarmanTTLB]

Abby's army can generally deal with them anyway. We out-threat them all (that we've seen so far), and she brings piles of warbeasts that all hit hard. Charge a Scythean or two into it, maybe start with an Angel for the AP, and hotswap Forced Evolution between your two favorites while doing so. She can disable them with a Raek and Blight Field, and then if it happens to be toed-into a scenario zone, she can crush 'em. Just makes Abby a great list in a 2+ list environment.

[Obeisance]

Removed post.

[Drakie]

Played a nemo3 with stormwall at the ETC with pVayl (Typhon, Scythean x2, Seraph, Bolt thrower, Warspears, Some solos)

Lost thanks to forgetting to feat with Vayl (picked up the next model and you could also most see the tears in my eyes xD), but I'd pick that match up any day, completely dominated him and if not for the slack of not feating it would have been a very 1 sided game!

With Incite a Scythean takes out 1 half of a stormwall (with +3 arm =22), typhon has some more trouble and he only did about a forth (together with the bolt thrower I think, not sure anymore).
pVayl can get at least 1 Scythean onto the stormwall easily before he even does anything other then shooting a bit on your tarpit and with Incite it's not that hard to bring it down.

If you meet 2 of them it will become a lot easier to get both Scytheans onto 1 stormwall and tear it down in 1 turn because I already felt that the 50pts list with 1 stormwall was already heavily relying on the stormwall being usefull, and you shouldn't have much trouble locking the other one down a bit.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I may be simple minded, but I really like following the 'death is the ultimate debuff' approach to them, and just inflicting mass damage. Any WL that can increase damage output, then, is a candidate for this approach. And with ranged weapons being a major part of their arsensal, I think that pThagrosh gets honorable mention between his ability to provide mass concealment, his ability to increase damage output, and his ability to resurrect a Warbeast.

It seems that in my admittedly limited exposure to Colossals, Legion will have to alter its play style the least. We already bring lots of Warbeasts, and we already have to consider how we're going to deal with high ARM targets.

-s&s

[Drakie]

Stormwall adds nicely to nemo3 tbh, throwing a pod near your caster to get more auto hit pow10 3d6 hits and with rapid fire he can just hope to hit.

Be wary of the fact that such a big base can get a lot of angles to LOS on your caster too!
When boosting to hit on the big canons , he managed to hit pVayl with it twice at def17 (and boost damage once, journeyman attachment to nemo3 gives bonus focus).

[obnoxiousno1]

P.Lylyth + 3 angelius. Parasite it, charge the bejeezuz out of it, go for a coke. That armor isn't so scary chopped in half.

[CaptBooyah]

You can also just use the Raek's ability to leap to get behind the colossal to arm lock. As it can't move to turn around and hit you, it can't spend focus to attack you at all. I've used this tactic on Mulg much to the disappointment/rage/disbelief of the Troll player. You do have to worry about what can hurt you while you're back there though but there's generally no loss in forcing a caster to take matters into her/his own hands and waste precious focus ridding its colossal of an angry kitty hanging off its arm.

[PG_vengence88]

For those talking doom about buffed colossals. I own two Stormwalls...even buffed they can die and don't forget the Naga is coming soon. I think colossals will only make him more valuable

[Alexwheeler]

I think that pThagrosh gets honorable mention between his ability to provide mass concealment, his ability to increase damage output, and his ability to resurrect a Warbeast.

sry a little off topic but was it ever ruled if he could/couldnt bring Arcangel back?

i think it would be very broken, but would fun to try out!

[Tarn]

P.Lylyth + 3 angelius. Parasite it, charge the bejeezuz out of it, go for a coke. That armor isn't so scary chopped in half.

Sorry my colossal book has not turned up yet so not had a chance to read it but are they actually affected by Armour piercing. The card says only medium and large bases are 1/2 does a colossal count as a large base?

[DrakkenBlut]

Just to ask a question in general:

Are WMs useful against Collossals or not? It seems like every week the opinion swings the other way. (one week it's "only charging WMs can inflict enough damage", and the other week it's "forget them, they will all die way before they get to a Collossal")

Also, the Collossal meta will require lots of buffing/debuffing solos. Eyriss, Junior, Ragman, Ayanna, etc. Perhaps the answer will be to get rid of those first?