Fighting colossals

[Neutralyze]

Just to ask a question in general:

Are WMs useful against Collossals or not? It seems like every week the opinion swings the other way. (one week it's "only charging WMs can inflict enough damage", and the other week it's "forget them, they will all die way before they get to a Collossal")

Also, the Collossal meta will require lots of buffing/debuffing solos. Eyriss, Junior, Ragman, Ayanna, etc. Perhaps the answer will be to get rid of those first?

it can be really hard to get rid of junior is a smart cygnar player just casts arcane shield and then keeps him way back. charging swordsmen did some damage the other night to a fail safe stormwall but by no means were they going to kill it after they could no longer charge unless i rolled hot. i did lose 4 on the way in from his strafe chainguns too.

[Crate123]

Sorry my colossal book has not turned up yet so not had a chance to read it but are they actually affected by Armour piercing. The card says only medium and large bases are 1/2 does a colossal count as a large base?

Thats not true, armor piercing says "medium base or larger" and since a huge base is indeed larger than a medium base it is affected by armor piercing. Its not affected by Burst Fire though (which to me really is an oversight on PPs behalf).

[hodni_sania]

Faced a stormwall for the first time last night. Was using plylyth as my caster. I sat her behind the gobbers cloud so she couldn't get shot and my angelius and scythean were both in it for concealment so it didnt do that much damage on the way in. Tried to focus on killing the stormwall, used lylyths feat shot it then used parasite(Stormwall was -1 arm afterwards had a +2 buff).Next Scythean charged did huge damage all the left sides boxes 3-4 on the right. Next came the Angelius armor piercing charge and rolled 1,1,2 vs its 9 arm. It was left with just 10 boxes left. But on his turn Darius fully healed it and i ended up getting crushed. Even with the loss im not overly "fearful" of it, it;s beatable and if he'd lost in he had nuthin else but long gunners and a stormclad.

[Earthcrosser599]

The only experience thus far was with pThagrosh against a eNemo Stormwall. He had the no-charge thing up. I shot at it for the first turn with a Seraph and pinged it up a bit, some of which he healed. Turn 2 I sprayed with all of Typhons shots, used a push power attack and slipstream to overcome the charge problem with a Carnivean under Draconic Blessing to kill it with about 7 damage to spare. It was quite a bit of an investment but I was comfortable trading pieces after it was dead because I had pThags.

Softening it up with shooting first was the deciding factor since the Carnivean wasn't going to kill it by itself.

[Earthcrosser599]

Its not affected by Burst Fire though (which to me really is an oversight on PPs behalf).

I thought they'd said that it was intentional that Burst Fire didn't give a damage bonus.

[Crate123]

I thought they'd said that it was intentional that Burst Fire didn't give a damage bonus.

They might have, I havent seen that though and last time it was asked on the rules forum the infernal said that it was possible it would be errataed (not saying that it would but stating that it wasnt impossible).
Adding those 2/3 points of damage to the few weapons with burst fire would not ruin anyones day.

[rexim]

I faced one with my eVayl list. Casted occultation on a scythean then ran it so it was 12" away. put admonition on it next round and it scraped the side it was in when he turned it around to kill scythean I walked away

[cwctoby]

I've not faced a colossal yet, but is it possible to avoid/ignore it until you've either attritioned down the rest of the army or gone for the caster if possible?
I was thinking taking out the rest of the force would be better for casters such as eLylyth.

[the_stoneman]

Have just face the stormwall once (the opponent was not used to it all that much) ended up almost allmost ignoring it, just threw an angel at it. Hardly scratched the darn thing.

I do believe that we do indeed have all the tools (good tools) needed to deal with the colossals, but I do also belive that we maby more sensitive to dice then many other factions when trying to take one out (especially in one turn) due to relative "low" PS.

This due to the fact that our strenghts perhaps more lean towards adapability and swiss armyknifedness (just made that word up, its mine i say ) then power.

I don´t know about you guys but my initial thoughts facing it was if I have to take it out (could in my game work around it) how do I get enough PS in one place to take it down with some redundancy for safety without easy access to + PS. (with thier 19+ PS they will wreck our beasts if they are left standing to hit back)

So I think that even though we might already run lots of beasts we might be one of the factions that really need to have (or carefully think about having) a power list to face the colossals. (have atleast one caster/build with access to easier +PS, something that up to date have been more of an option for us rather then a necessity).

Does anyone else that has faced them have a simmilar feeling/idea?

[DrakkenBlut]

A little math:

Threat ARM 22 ARM 21 ARM 20 ARM 19 ARM 18 ARM 17 ARM 16 ARM 15 ARM 14
Carnivean 17 24 31 38 45 52 59 66 73
Scythean 14 21 28 35 42 49 56 63 70
Angelius 19 22 25 28 31 34 37 40 43
Raptors(5) 10 15 20 25 35 45 55 65 75
eThag 21 28 36 44 52 60 68 76 84

This is a rough estimate of what can damage a Collosal. Collosal's armor ranges from 22 buffed (Stormwall+ Arcane Shield) to 14 max debuffed (said stormwall but with AS stripped and with Kiss of Lylis and Parasite on). The rest are results of combos of faction buffs and debuffs.

The beasts and eThag are assumed to just walk up to the Collosal and spend all Fury buying attacks, not boosting anything and hitting all the time. A more precise calculation can show a little difference but I think this is enough for a general estimate. Angelious is presumed to charge for free (aerial coordination or something), and buy 2 attacks, boosting dmg on both. Raptors are supposed to just charge.

I think that the most reasonable range to look at would be 17-19 ARM, since almost all of our armies can ignore the buff (Naga!) and have an equivalent to -2 debuff. under that level is an over-specialized army, and over it it's not wise to attack.

We can see that the difference between a Scythean and a Carni is not that great, Scythean is a better killer per pt and gets more threat range, since it's got Reach. However, both cannot kill a Collossal in one go. A second beast must help.

Angelius is ideal, it has even better threat range and can fly over whatever is in the way. I think together these two can kill a Collossal, almost all of the time. Three Angels will kill a Collossal, but two is streching it.

Raptors may apply, however they need to survive and they all need to get in melee range, which is a little iffy. eThag should not be exposed even if it means a Collossal killed, he's there just for comparison.

So, for a generic Collossal killer list, take an Naga, Scythean and an Angelius. Should be a good starting core of the army. If you have a warlock that goes good with Angels, (eVayl, Absylonia etc) take three of those instead. Angels do best against a fully buffed Collossal.

Carni will kill a Collossal himself, but only if it's debuffed to the max. So maybe if you take BFS and a warlock that has a buff/debuff, ideally pLylyth, opt for a Carni.

Edit: goddamn table won't fit the way it's supposed to. Sorry.

[the_stoneman]

I agree we do have alot of good options, but like I said even a second beast does not leave much room for a sligthly low rolls for a beast even at ARM 20 (and most the beasts will likely fail atleast one attack due to shear amount of attacks). It is also more benificial to boost if you get dice -4 (or less, as the fury then grants you an extra 3,5 rather then 7-4=3).

I´m unsure if your point is that we will be fine as is, or if we do need to adapt a general list build and we will be fine, or if you agree that it might be benificial to have a more didicated list. If you do the same list but for Scorn, or trolls with rocky buffs or menoth with them singing boys or.. you get my point. You will likely see alot more redundancy = safety/likelyhood of bringing the thing down.

I for one do like the naga but do also feel that it is 5 pts that I don´t feel brings enough for what else I can get for those points in all lists. (I think it will bring alot to som builds/casters but not as much to others). I think hat we will see a more influx with Abby and pthags due to the easy excess to + 2 str. I do like that the colossals rumble around the meta bit making a bit less used casters more viable/nessicary.

We will probably be alright, but what factions do you see having the hardest time with the whole colossal/gargantuan thing (apart from minions).

Edit: how did you get the angel to do 19 dmg without boosting against 22 ARM (with the buff)?

[DrakkenBlut]

I just wanted to roughly establish a starting anti-Collosal army, and we'll fine-tune the notion later. When you come up with an idea, it's good to have some baseline of what to compare it to.

As to what faction is hardest hit with the Collossals, well, I guess Gators, since they have little in the high P+S areas, and oddly all of Warmachine since 3 focus per jack doesn't hit a Collosal all that hard, but it does drain the caster pretty bad. But I really haven't given it much thought.

[Crate123]

Edit: how did you get the angel to do 19 dmg without boosting against 22 ARM (with the buff)?

He did say it would get a free charge.

[Earthcrosser599]

Just wrapped up a game against a Mountain King under the influence of a Kriel Stone.

A forced Evolution Typhon didn't kill it in one go, even after connecting with all of its attacks. Due to some poor placement I wasn't able to get a second heavy to fight him. I think Typhon left him with 20 boxes left. A second heavy would probably have been enough even without Forced Evolution. Abby's Critical Grievous Wounds and Blight Field would have effectively neutralized him. Or Neutralyzed him...

A Forsaken rolling 7 dice was down 14 but rolled dismal. A decent roll looks like it can take a chunk out of a Gargantuan.

Going up against Gargantuans and Colossals with Skorne doesn't really factor the dice too much, but thus far for my Legion it looks like the results are very heavily dependent on average rolls.

[rexim]

We generally do more damage to high armor then that because at -4 it gets more efficient to boost damage

I don't know why people are scared of the stormwall. It's a anti infantry piece and I play my legion beast heavy. In none of the lists i run do I see it killing 19 points before i kill it. I will gladly waist a scythean in it to wreck half of it. He then have to waist 2-3 focus to reliably kill a scythean. Then my next scythean will kill it. And that is a good trade for me i like killing 19 points for 9 points, that is how I grind

[CaptBooyah]

We generally do more damage to high armor then that because at -4 it gets more efficient to boost damage

I don't know why people are scared of the stormwall. It's a anti infantry piece and I play my legion beast heavy. In none of the lists i run do I see it killing 19 points before i kill it. I will gladly waist a scythean in it to wreck half of it. He then have to waist 2-3 focus to reliably kill a scythean. Then my next scythean will kill it. And that is a good trade for me i like killing 19 points for 9 points, that is how I grind

The crazy thing that annoys me most about Colossals (with the stormwall as the main focus) is the sheer amount of firepower they hit you with before you even get into threat range or get a chance to use that threat range.

By your example, the Stormwall can move 5" to be within 12" of your first Scythean. It unloads with 2 POW 15s, at 5s to hit, which are boosted for damage. On average that's 15-16 damage, half of the Scythean's dmg. With its strafe attacks, it'll either have 4 POW 12s or 8 POW 12s, with one of those boosted damage, that's between 8 and 12 average dmg. Your first Scythean has now somewhere between 2 and 7 health left which is easily cleaned up by another model/unit. The second Scythean probably gets the charge off, does some damage, which is then repaired by mechanics and then the Stromwall two shots your 2nd Scythean. Add snipe to this equation and we're better off not even bothering to go after the Stormwall unless it moves up to contest/control points.

You could argue that the Stormwall would be concentrating fire elsewhere but if I was a Cygnar player (and I was in mk1), I'd first be using the Stormwall to pick apart anything that could directly threaten it or looks like it will. 19pts to take 18pts off the board effortlessly and give the warlock less fury to play with? Fair trade off. Next turn, we shoot the caster in the face. You only really stand a chance if you can outright trash it in one turn or leave it so brutalised that mechanics won't be able to fix it enough to see it survive the next turn (It'll probably mess up both of the heavies in the process so pray for cortex disabling to avoid).

My overall point is, simple brute force from Legion won't bring down a colossal. The dice aren't in it and there are barely enough dmg synergy around in Legion to make it happen consistently without making it a waste of resources that are now ignoring the rest of the army its facing. Colossals will require tricks, synergy, good model placement and possibly a lot of praying that your opponent doesn't roll fire on its range shots.

[rexim]

I'm sorry, but I play eVayl, eLylyth and eThagrosh. My glasses are a bit skewed so I still don't see your point. The scythean will either have stealth or arm 22 you can have your fun shooting at that my friend And their only upkeep removal is eEiryss and she ain't got no stealth against us

Simple brute force is what we do best. Hit faster hit harder and don't let them hit back. We don't need to stack buff on buff to get a monster we have it from start and only need to make sure kill something they need for their monster combos to work.

The thing you miss is that all focus the stormwall uses come from the caster so most of the time there wont be enough for it to get 3 and everything else that needs the focus. If the stormwall was a gargantus i would be terrified, but focus system got its limits.

And above all else I'm still more afraid of 2 storm clad eHaley list. 15" threat range with a fully loaded clad for free that is something or kill half a beast in top of turn 1 that is whats broken not the stormwall

[Fernslayer]

i havent played it yet but i will be soon, its a 50pt B&B list against Cygnar. Reason i chose them is the list i'm playing against is all electric, when i play it i'll let you all know how it does I know i'll be against the stormwall and the battle engine. Here;s my list.. B&B (+3) Scythean (9) Typhon (12) Black Frost Shard (5) Full Raptors (10) Annyssa (4) Min Archers (proxy ) (5) Archers UA (2) Forsaken ( 2) Spell Marters ( 3) and Gobbers (1) . My plan is to meld into Belphagore to become immune to lightening use the gobbers to protect the Archers while they move into place, Use the Archers and Annyssa to take out the solos ( the ones that triangulate with the lightening pod, there are 3 of them) BFS plus heavies for the big based things, Raptors will cause havoc and possibly take out the caster. (shrugs) will see how it works out. but i feel this is my best options for an all electric list There is another solo that is i think a cannon of some kind, it comes with two models and i think the caster he's using is Nemo ( not sure which one though)

What do you guys think? ( aside from the archers, because i Really like the feel of them on paper and i'm trying to proxy them to see if they fit my play style. Which is a lotta of shootie and a few beasties for furry. They did well against another legion army last night but i want to give them a few more tries before i get them.)

[Fernslayer]

Oopsie, Double Post!!

[CaptBooyah]

I think you misunderstood my argument, certainly stealth is a pretty nice trick to bring against Colossal but it was something you didn't mention in your scenario so I took it as a straight up 'I can throw two heavy warbeasts at it and it will die' claim. You never mentioned any of the synergy you personally utilised.

As I argued before, it's not a straight points tradeoff that will do in a colossal, it's the tactics and approach you take in any given situation. Stealth is something Cygnar has some decent tools for (Siege, Kraye, B13) and charging can be difficult between Temporal Barrier and Polarity Shield. eHaley can bond Stormwall for a 14" threat range as well (ps. you can get 17" of threat range out of a Stormclad, not sure which spell you missed, either TK or Temporal Acceleration. Stormwall can't get that 17" due to being unable to be pushed 1" and unable to be placed by TK.) Kraye can give Stormwall a free 17" charge on feat turn with full tilt.

Sure, focus is not as scary as fury but when it's used in the right place, it can be utterly devastating. eHaley + a squire has more than enough focus to run a Stormwall on a full 4 with whatever else she wants to do with that focus like TKing your beasts around or TimeBombing them or shoving a Stormclad into nasty places. eHaley in general will give eVayl nightmares, that feat will screw over any activation synergy she had for a turn and it was probably the turn when she really needed to punch a hole through Stormwall too.

Arcane Shield is one of the major threats I notice for Stormwall, that +3 ARM is nothing to sneeze at for which the only real answers Legion has is the Naga (which will probably be pretty staple once it comes out) and stacking damage buffs and debuffs on the way. +2 dmg from BFS and whatever flavour of +2 dmg caster buff you're playing (you can only pick ONE: Ignite, Incite, Forced Evolution, Parasite (+3!), PinCushion (I guess), Draconic Blessing, Manifest Destiny, Purification (effectively +3 if removing AS)).

The highest damage combo I can think of is +8 from pLyllyth if you Naga animus your charging warbeast after hitting the colossal with parasite and also with BFSs Kiss (cost: 10pts + 5 fury). The rest are +7 with Naga animus, BFS and random +2 stat (10pts + 3-6 fury depending). eVayl is next with Purification + BFS nets you a +5 if you remove AS (cost: 5pts + 4 fury). It's probably also noteworthy that some of these spells have an overall effect that synergise with the next beast you throw at it, although you'll probably need to cast the animus on the second beast as well for another two fury. And even with all this, I can barely even believe that the BFS will be able to get within 10" of Stormwall (ymmv but my group's pretty consistent in noticing anything that has ARM/DEF debuffs on the table), gunmages will probably slaughter them around the 2nd turn with their truesight+deadeye. I'd kill for a solo with a ranged dispel like eEiryss. Might go as far as to even give up my love for using eLyllyth for a FA:U solo with a ranged dispel (whoa whoa whoa, let's not get hasty).

My overall point being that you never traded 9 to kill 19. You used and sacrificed 9, utilised around however X amount of pts on support models and however X amount of fury to buff and/or debuff and you probably lost the other 9 as is it's now extended forward into enemy lines. Hopefully the rest of the army has tied up what remains off the opposing forces and hopefully you're also using refuge or something similar to get out of immediate danger.

I think that in order to remove a colossal from the table, you will need to make the investment in the right support and have the plan ready to go from the first turn or be prepared to make a complete shift if the colossal comes within striking distance.

My current answer is either Abby with armlocking Raeks as we've been thinking about since Stormwall was released and the ruling on armlocks came back favourably or eVayl casting purificiation, helping to slipstream two heavies into charge range and popping harm on them courtesy of BFS. Was originally thinking Angelius due to high DEF and animus for control point taking in non-colossal matchups buy Sycthean has always favoured well in any game I've played (apart from that one game where it one-shotted (ormorelike4shotted) by Arlen Vesh :\). Abby strikes me as the most favourable mainly due the armlock being a viable second option to scraping it with buffed heavies.

i havent played it yet but i will be soon, its a 50pt B&B list against Cygnar. Reason i chose them is the list i'm playing against is all electric, when i play it i'll let you all know how it does I know i'll be against the stormwall and the battle engine. Here;s my list.. B&B (+3) Scythean (9) Typhon (12) Black Frost Shard (5) Full Raptors (10) Annyssa (4) Min Archers (proxy ) (5) Archers UA (2) Forsaken ( 2) Spell Marters ( 3) and Gobbers (1) . My plan is to meld into Belphagore to become immune to lightening use the gobbers to protect the Archers while they move into place, Use the Archers and Annyssa to take out the solos ( the ones that triangulate with the lightening pod, there are 3 of them) BFS plus heavies for the big based things, Raptors will cause havoc and possibly take out the caster. (shrugs) will see how it works out. but i feel this is my best options for an all electric list There is another solo that is i think a cannon of some kind, it comes with two models and i think the caster he's using is Nemo ( not sure which one though)

What do you guys think? ( aside from the archers, because i Really like the feel of them on paper and i'm trying to proxy them to see if they fit my play style. Which is a lotta of shootie and a few beasties for furry. They did well against another legion army last night but i want to give them a few more tries before i get them.)

All the best to you, remember that eruption of spines could very well wipe out the support behind the Stormwall. 5" from model is a loooong way, will probably hit the caster as well. Use the despoiler animus cloud to hide the advance of your heavy beasts for a turn. Be very careful of that Stormwall though, it's quite likely to blast away at your caster as soon as it's in range but she's sitting pretty nice at 19ARM with transfers. A shredder for tenacity would be nice tho, I guess Typhon's animus does about the same job though.

Hide the archers behind the cloud as Stormsmiths will ignore the gobber cloud for targeting models in it. They'll probably just kill the gobbers but I guess that buys you a turn to shoot them back in the face. They also ignore stealth which is sad times for the Bro Frost Shard

[dmeep]

i see a lot of examples against nemo and darius here. the thing that got most people scratching their head over in the cryx forums are pHaley since her spell dont allow you to run or charge in her control area makes getting the charge and or surviving a casual stroll up to it a bit more painfull. I own legion models but have never fielded them, damn you overcomplicated paint schema and even more ambitious basing scheme... and now im back on topic again, so i cant say im familiar with the threat ranges of legion. Two stormwalls base to base with pHaley casting the "no running(or charging) with siccors" spell and sitting snugg in the cavity behind the two huge bases makes cryx sad pandas. Legions abbundance of sprays might force the cygnar player to place haley further back and hence you will get of the charge anyway.

And eHaley can bond a colossal allowing for 4 focus and +2 movement combined with a spell that gives another 2 movement giving it a base movment of 9 a charge of 12 and a run of 14. Thats some pretty high numbers making the "just go around it" argument void atleast against that caster.

so what are your thoughts on the matter of the haleys? no problems or dear lord i hope my local cygnar players never figure that out?

the lightning pods can be placed aswell dont forget that making any support model that gets close fried bacon.

the colossal discussion if mostly focused on the stormwall atm since thats the only one thats released for real and the one your likely to face atm.

[Drakie]

I didn't get to play against Haley so only have experience on stormwall in general, I did discuss the posible stormwall match ups we could get with my teammates when I was going to the ETC tourney and

my plan with pVayl was to just try to rush up the table as fast as possible with slipstreams, leash and feating to get up another 6",
you won't really need the feat against double stormwalls for much else since all they have is 1 sacrificial unit besides it and with stormwalls their battleplan should really be to nuke down your heavies from range.

[rexim]

I will have to try more only faced one once and yea, my answers are short. I never traded 9 for 19, my opponent was trying his model out so I traded 0 for 19. I think you are on the pessimistic side of the scale and I'm an optimist saying it will take a long time before I'm sad seeing a stormwall.
They are 2 jacks forced to be in one spot. As long as you treat them as such I think it will be all right. And no you cant just throw 2 heavies at them. This game takes some finesse. But it will still take a fully loaded stormwall to reliably kill a heavy if you then cant retaliate you need to build a new list. I just wanted to point out that you don't have to one turn them, only if they are with Darius is that important. Wreck half of it and wreck the other half next turn. They are still a jack so if you are smart enough to kill the repair men, they will not be that cool without half their systems.

And saying that eHaley gives eVayl nightmares is kinda wrong i think. Sure one round will be boring but with admonition, refuge and occultation eHaley does not like facing eVayl all that much either. And i don't think the stormwall would make me sad in a eHaley list.

And pHaley is an anti cryx caster in my eyes. Legion has the seraph, carnivean, Typhon and eThagrosh and so he must be pretty damn perfect with his placement or she is dead. So far I've always been able to kill her, but need to face her more as well.

BFS is a trap, they are extremely squishy, they have targets painted in their forehead. A plan to kill a colossal that involves the BFS will probably fail.

(ps eHaley can get a storm clad 23" threat in a turn. Its kinda unlikely but hey it is possible ) (and if you don't believe me normal 10"+5 from pronto+4 TK clad and charge target, +2 hunters mark and +2 from acceleration. I said it was unlikely right? )

[blitzmonkey]

Draken, you may want to copy and save this as I dont know how long the website will let me keep it up.

[Lanz]

So far what games I've played against colossals have left me generally considering either a Naga or BFS in pretty much all lists. With either, I've generally not had too much trouble breaking the armor in a timely fashion, but without them it's always been an uphill battle.

[DrakkenBlut]

Idea: stalling a Collosal.

Park a cheap model so that a Collossal is in its melee range. Now, a Collosal can kill it, therefore staying in one place, trample over it and thereby lose the initial attack and one Fury/Focus that activation, or go around it, so that the Collosal will not be able to use a charge lane.

Of course, other elements of the army on the said Collossals side may try to kill the nuisance model, however you've got the DEF bonus against shooting, and if something gets near enough to kill it in melee, that thing may now block the Collosal. In all bear in mind the huge base and how that alone will hinder any attempt to dislodge the nuisance model.

This may work least well against a Collossal that is focused on ranged, since it still can shoot (Hyperion, Stormwall), plus you may be gifting the Kraken with a corpse token. And it won't work against the Archangel at all, since it flies.

I think the Legion has the best tools to do this in lessers (relatively high DEF and health, they're a pain to get rid of, Harrier may be better than a Shredder in this case).

Cygnar may be the worst faction to use this tactic against, with all the Black Penny and Storm Caller abilities they would have the least trouble to get rid of the nuisance.

The most obvious way to use this tactic would be to set up a charge against the collosal. The model to charge goes into place, while the nuisance model blocks the Collossal from charging first. Maybe someone thinks of another way to take advantage of this. Will go nicely with some of the movement shenanigans our faction has.



@blitzmonkey: What was that attachment? I missed it.

[doom_reaver]

sry a little off topic but was it ever ruled if he could/couldnt bring Arcangel back?

i think it would be very broken, but would fun to try out!

AFAIK he can't. I think the feat says place a warbeast or the warbeast must be placed within 3" of thagrosh. Gargantuans/colossals cannot be placed so therefore they cannot benefit from the feat.

[Bodiless]

Curious what people think of the situation now that the new errata has killed locking Colossals...

[Belthazar1113]

meh, you just wreck them and call it a day.

[AWM68]

Awww man. I just got done reading all this, excited about trying it out against the Conquest and then a total let down. Boo. There needs to be an enlarge spell now. Make large based huge for a turn!