How will Cygnar get out of this one? (Colossals Fluff spoilers)

[sliganian]

In this Khador player's opinion, this 'ally' situation has been a long time in coming and makes lots of sense.

Look, all of the Iron Kingdoms can be -- at a root, visceral level -- be divided into two groups:

Non-Living (or anti-Life): Cryx, lesser extent Everblilght

Living (Life): everyone else.

When all are pushed to a brink, it is in all of the Living folks best interests to defeat the Non-Living.

Then we can resume our petty squabbles and games of glory.

[dunce002917]

I think an event would cause the Iron Kingdoms to reunite and join forces to defeat the undead/blighted threat in Immoren.

The only "iffy" factions would be the Skorne, Retribution and Circle.

but who knows? maybe an unknown threat (new faction? Orgoth) would do this...
of course, there would still be "unofficial" skirmishes here and there.. kinda like the Butcher vs. Siege thing in the book.

[Coldblooded3k]

Stryker and Kraye is no deads right ? I hope they don't die :<

[PG_Dino-Czar]

Stryker and Kraye is no deads right ? I hope they don't die :<

Both are alive at the end of the book, assuming someone grabs Kraye during the retreat.

[scout's honor]

We've lost a huge fight to the Cryx and the only up side is that it's in the Thornwood instead of Point Bourne.

What now?

Thornwood should by rights have been the staging area for an "all your base are belong to us" scenario for Cryx. Like winning the war, instead of winning a battle. Instead, while Cryx did deal a very serious blow to both Cygnar and Khador forces, you could argue nothing truly significant was gained so far. And unless they can start an invasion right now, nothing truly sigificant will be gained period.

The way I see this getting resolved is that Cryx will get forced into conventional warfare with much less resources than anticipated, against the two nations that arguably have the most experience with conventional warfare in the IK (not counting Skorne among the IK) and - although the alliance is shaky at best - which are no longer at each other's throats. And with Everblight knocking at the back door, even if the Thornwood situation has nothing to do with that. So things may not all be sugar and rainbows, but "at least it's not in Point Bourne" is hardly the only upside.

As for Nemo and Irusk, much as they're both convinced the truce can't last they both know the current cease fire is critical. I expect they'll both want to contain Cryx' entry into their lands as much as possible, and that'll require working together closely. Coincidentally, it'd be a total shame if PP didn't make the most of this forced cooperation between the greatest scientifical and the greatest military mind of the age, so I'm sure they'll push that for a while to come.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

What now?

Thornwood should by rights have been the staging area for an "all your base are belong to us" scenario for Cryx. Like winning the war, instead of winning a battle. Instead, while Cryx did deal a very serious blow to both Cygnar and Khador forces, you could argue nothing truly significant was gained so far. And unless they can start an invasion right now, nothing truly sigificant will be gained period.

Did you not read the last chapter? Cygnar and Khador we defeated utterly. They gave it their best shot and came up spectacularly short. If not for the earthquake stalling Venethrax every Cryx goal would be checked off.

Cryx doesn't fight to hold territory, so this isn't a war of conquest for them. They're escorting MacGuffins. As long as the MacGuffin reaches the flag they won, no matter what was sacrificed to get it there. And to date all they've sacrificed to that goal is secrecy.

So yeah, you might argue that the exposure of this base is a possible future setback, but seeing as this base came into existence between Apotheosis and Legends fabricating another shouldn't be too much trouble.

[dunce002917]

Hmm... since the Cygnar-Khador alliance failed to win against the Cryx.

Perhaps Vlad's "talks" with Severus might signal a third faction in the Alliance?

Imagine a Cygnar-Khador-Protectorate Alliance with some Mercs vs. Cryx... and just when you thought the Alliance is winning, Magnus and Vinter's army sneaks in and messes things up.

Or maybe the Skorne breaks through the Troll and Circle blockades and takes some fertile land for Makeda...

the fluff is getting more and more interesting...

[FearLord]

Ah yes, the "Leto the Unlucky" argument. Except, as I pointed out, these aren't exceptional times. Continuous warfare is the norm in this setting.

Warfare may be the norm, but saying these aren't exceptional times is a little short sighted. Some signs of the times that point to these being exceptional times:

- One of the Iron Kingdoms (Llael) has been completely annexed by another (Khador) - this has not happened since the invasion of the Orgoth.
- The Protectorate of Menoth, a nation not allowed to hold a standing army or Warjacks has not only stopped hiding their military forces but have actively started a Crusade to bring Menoth to the masses, by Force.
- The Prophet of Menoth (Harbringer) has appeared to lead this Crusade, drawing up plans for a literal Avatar of Menoth...
- Irusk, perhaps the best military mind in the history of Khador is in charge of the Khadoran invasion - Khador has attacked many times before, but have they ever been better led?
- Similarly, Irusk's reforms to the military, while not has flashy as the technological upgrades of Nemo, have vastly improved the way Khador wages war - Winter Guard carrying guns of any kind as a primary weapon is a relatively recent addition to their forces and their mortars are shown in Escalation as being extremely important to this new Khadoran style of warfare.
- Cryx has revealed its true power for the first time in its long history - revealing that they are more than raiders and Pirates from the islands, but a credible force in land with vast power.
- 4 Lich Lords are on the mainland - this has basically never happened before.
- Cygnar is an potentially its weakest point since the Orgoth were repelled - the Protectorate of Menoth was given some measure of independence fairly recently, taking half the capital with them as well as a good chunk of the population and land. Also, for the first time in Cygnar's history we're basically still seeing the aftermath of a coup - while few people can deny that life under Leto in Cygnar is probably much nicer, there are some who have lost power and influence they once wielded in favour of Leto's supporters, which leaves a lasting legacy...
- There are forces actively scheming to return Vinter to the throne.

These are definitely exceptional times...

[scout's honor]

Did you not read the last chapter? Cygnar and Khador we defeated utterly. They gave it their best shot and came up spectacularly short. If not for the earthquake stalling Venethrax every Cryx goal would be checked off.

They lost a battle. A very large battle and with very serious consequences, but the biggest reason it smarts is that they went in expecting to roflstomp all over Cryx and were unprepared for what they had to face. had they had had even an inkling of the extent of the necrofactorium, their best shot would have been a very different one and likely much more effective.

[d715]

Vinter showed results. Leto sunk bunch of resources into restructuring the court, army and technology but fails to deliver any major military success. Maybe another coup is in order... this time comrades of Cygnar Kingdom shall vote red.

by "results" you mean got kicked out of both nations he ran then yes.

Vinter is an awesome warrior but horrible leader.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

@fearlord: Are you sure I'm the one being "short sighted"? Your being more aware of the events happening right now doesn't necessarily make them more significant. Constant warfare means there are always new geniuses, new weapons and new rebellions.

@scoutshonor: So what? If a hundred things happened otherwise the fluff would be unrecognizable. But those things didn't happen. Cygnar and Khador getting their teeth pulled out while Gaspy sacrificed the secrecy of a base he didn't even have a year ago -fluff time-. Seeing as Cryx will never fight a conventional war (they don't need to) I'm having a hard time following your thinking.

[FearLord]

@fearlord: Are you sure I'm the one being "short sighted"? Your being more aware of the events happening right now doesn't necessarily make them more significant. Constant warfare means there are always new geniuses, new weapons and new rebellions.

Well, there is a fairly detailed history of the Iron Kingdoms, at least in the era since the rebellion against the Orgoth. We know that many of these things have never happened previously, notably (and entirely relevant to the events of Colossals) Cryx has never revealed a significant force or base of operations on the mainland in its entire history. Things like Irusk vs other historical Khador Generals are harder to gauge but I would argue that Khador's current military campaign can be view as the most successful in its history and if your theory is simply that Leto is the reason for this, it seems equally valid to suggest that Irusk is the reason for it...

[d715]

@FearLord

I think the reason why people hear are blaming Leto is kinda like how people blame Obama for Bush's crappy economy plans. Or something like that.


They keep forgetting that in-story Vinter drove Cygnar's economy and army into the ground, allowed the Protectorate to build up its army because his corrupted officers were bride to turn a blind eye and allowed Cyrx to sent up bases. Plus its only been a few years since Leto took over thus why its army is still in bad shape.

Now the reason why people like Vinter is because he's a total awesome badass, but he just got Magnus, pretty much his most loyal minion to turn on him AND the skorne kicked Vinter out.

Vinter is an horrible person and leader and if he was in change Cygnar would be even worst than it is now.