Games with the Mountain King

[unclebiggins]

On first look of the Mountain King. Many of us feel like we have been let down by its stats. The comparabily worse statistics and increased points cost weigh against the inherient advantages of the Fury system. With both Collosals and this latest Gargantuan being so new, we need to get some games in to gauge how they perform.

So far I have played two games against opponents who have known I was going to be testing the Mountain King.

Both games I had the unfortunate experience of them playing Cryx.

The first game was a 50pt game using:

pMadrak
-Mountain King
-Axer
-Mauler
KW (MAX) + UA + WA
KSB (MAX) + UA
Hero
Whelps


I played against an infantry heavy Terminus army. For the parts that are relavent to the Mountain King the enemies list had:

Terminus
Levithian
Ripsaw
Banethralls (max) + UA
Mechanithralls (max)
Necrosurgeon
War Witch Siren
Tartarus

In the first game, I deployed the Mountain King with an eye to bust through the enemy front and get to Terminus. He got Rushed and charged the front line with pMadraks feat and caught 4 Bane Thralls and the Ripsaw in melee range. He wiped out all of the Thralls and crippled the Ripsaw ending his turn on 4 fury. I had a few whelps out to protect him from charges from bane thralls so only a few got in along with a War Witch Siren who locked him down. He got shot at by a Levithan either but thanks to the whelps I didnt get surrounded by 5 thralls which could have been enough to kill me. He spawned around 7 whelps through the warwitch, bane and mechani thralls and the 3 focus levithian who left me on just 12hp at the end of the turn.

I healed back 12hp from my whelps bringing me up to 24hp. I had Carnage cast from Madrak and did a sweep on the Siren, Ripsaw and a Bane Thrall killing all three but he toughed. I triggered Kill shot and made a 10" spray to another part of the field killing the KD bane thrall who toughed again. I boosted attack and damage on Tartarus but was rewarded with a 4 for my damage roll. A result of 9, would have Killed Tartarus which would have been a huge boon. I bought another attack and killed a bane knight.

Despite my Hero and KWarriors killing most of the thralls, Terminus flies in with Maledicition and the last thrall puts -4 ARM on my Mountain King and he gets wiped out by the second wave of Mechani-thralls.

Kill Count:

Ripsaw (75 percent of damage)
Warwitch Siren
5 Bane Thralls
2 Mechani-Thralls

The Whelps and Snacking healed about 15 damage that when combined with the 48 hit boxes on the Mountain King gave it more toughness than its health suggests. The KSB was intergral to this models survival, the advantage is that it doesnt just provide support for only the Mountain King, the downside to this is that I find that the KSB might be an auto include for him. He was never going to shake the Bane Thralls and they make a pretty painful counter to him.

What also came up was that Kill Shot would have been very handy in the first charge as I was eyeing opportunities to use it and it would have given me a chance at killing an extra 3 or so Bane or Mechani-Thralls by blasting into their back ranks. RAT 5 isnt amazing but if you catch enough targets in the SP10 then you are bound to hit a few and POW 16 can kill even shield wall infantry with ease. If the enemy was living also, the Snacking would have boosted my healing further.

The Whelp spawning also ment that my opponent used his Levithian against the DEF 14 ARM 20 Axer instead of the Mountain King in the early stages of the game. Sadly my opponent had a good toolbox for dealing with it.


The second game I played was 35pts. I used a different list keeping the Axer and the Mauler:

eHoarluk
-Mountain King
-Axer
-Mauler
KSB (min) + UA
Extra Whelps

I unfortunately ended up fighting Cryx again. His list was as follows:

eGaspy
-Seether
-Nightwretch
-Nightwretch
Baneknights (max)
Withershadow Combine
Bile Thralls (min)
Tartarus


Using my list I wanted to make an immediate and powerful impact on the the enemy with my feat turn and hopeful drive through for an assasination. Parasite is in gaspy's spell list so I knew I would be playing with an ARM 18 Mountain King. Thru to form I got hit by the spell top of turn 2 along with a charge from a single bane knight. I popped my feat and counter attacked the Cryx army with all my beasts either charging or trampling into the line. By the end of my turn I had killed Tartarus, a arc node and all but two Baneknights with virtually no damage on the Mountain King on this point.

The Bane Knights counter charged, eGaspy unloaded 6 fury worth of attacks into him and he spawned around 8 whelps before he popped his feat and the eDoomy had to spend his fury to transfer which eventually killed the Mountain King and then Doomy.

This game the Mountain King accounted for the following:

3 Bane Knights (+2 Assists from Primal Shocks at POW 15 for added closure to instant kill)
Nightwretch Bonejack

From this game I learned/confirmed a few more things about the Mountain King.

1) It is a whole lot better when it is dealing with Living Infantry. With only a single turn to be offensive, he found himself in the heart of the enemy army with the Withershadow/Gaspy/Tartarus all within reach. His 10" spray could have found himself doing some good damage.

2) Axer rush is important, KSB is nessasary. The Axer is a decent stand alone beast and there is cross synergy with the Amuck animus to the Rush animus. The Mountain King has a good 10" threat range that becomes a incredible 12 with Rush. The KSB magnifies the value of whelp shedding by giving me more opportunities to survive.

3) Extra whelps are overkill or really useful. Spawning 2 whelps after I was charged by that single bane thrall in the second game on turn 2 gave me the chance to

4) Chip at a flank before going for the heart. The Mountain King draws alot of flak and the first game saw me take advantage of the Whelp Shedding ability to give me a very strong health regain buffer. If I had this same outcome on a flank where the enemy could counter attack with less I could follow up in subsequent turns

5) The spray attack is really good. See point 1 where I wish that my games were against more living enemies thus giving me the chance to use kill shot more.

6)

[HellecticMojo]

seems pretty lackluster, I know that you wished the match up was against living models, but 20pt seems like a huge gamble. and even when you did better it didn't kill more than 15 pts worth of stuff.

[cryptomancer]

Yeah, that's about what I figured. le sigh...

-crypto

[skurkious]

I also notice the Cryx armies played somewhat into your hands by plinking away at him. I can just see in my Meta everyone bringing one heavy killer against me if they know I have the MtK. Then even if he survives he will only have 2-3 whelps. And will he have the ability to one round heavies with that mat 5?

Thanks for the battle reports, gave some more information to chew on.

[PG_LunarSol]

I still don't really understand why Kill Shot only triggers off of living models.

[omerplata]

Because PP wants to protect their poor little cryx from fun abilities that could have an impact on their army?

[PG_Steamworks]

I'm not sure I'd take him against Cryx, ever. Their ability to debuff ARM will easily out-stretch his ability to regenerate. I mean, what do you do if they bring a Stalker?

[chrisBatson]

I find this fascinating. Also, it may be the final nail in the wallet that stops me from buying him.

[zor]

So basically what you are saying is that I should bring another list in a 2/3 list tournament and put MtK in the one that is not meant for going against cryx? Solid.

Pretty much I would fathom to say where MK is going to be strongest is against warmachine with the exception of Cryx, maybe Menoth. And he will be strong against other colossals because he can have 6-7 attacks on that colossal that has max 5 attacks against him.

So he didn't break the game nor is he the weakest model for points in the game. He's an 18 pt beast with 2 points of whelps included and a 3 pt auto include (stone). Still don't see doom and gloom.

[sourclams]

Thanks for the batreps. I'd like to see him as the centerpiece of a pDoomy list to see if maxing out on his defense yields better than trying to run him like Mulg+.

Still feels like we got an expensive med-def infantry clearer in a faction that really excels at clearing med def infantry.

[cryptomancer]

Because PP wants to protect their poor little cryx from fun abilities that could have an impact on their army?

No no no! Obviously, the King normally enjoys smashing living things so much, he just has to yell his triumph to the heavens. Whereas when killing machines, constructs and undead, he's so disappointed in the crunch or squish sounds they make, he just releases a quiet "aww..." instead of the deathly roar.

Or something.

-crypto

[omerplata]

No no no! Obviously, the King normally enjoys smashing living things so much, he just has to yell his triumph to the heavens. Whereas when killing machines, constructs and undead, he's so disappointed in the crunch or squish sounds they make, he just releases a quiet "aww..." instead of the deathly roar.

Or something.

-crypto

Oh I see. He is just saddened that he has to clean zombie off of his hands? Makes sense now.

[PG_petegrrrr]

So basically what you are saying is that I should bring another list in a 2/3 list tournament and put MtK in the one that is not meant for going against cryx? Solid.

Pretty much I would fathom to say where MK is going to be strongest is against warmachine with the exception of Cryx, maybe Menoth. And he will be strong against other colossals because he can have 6-7 attacks on that colossal that has max 5 attacks against him.

So he didn't break the game nor is he the weakest model for points in the game. He's an 18 pt beast with 2 points of whelps included and a 3 pt auto include (stone). Still don't see doom and gloom.

He's actually not going to be good against other colossals, because they all have the ability to do big bursts of damage at him from well beyond his range. So sure, they may have 1 or 2 less melee attacks, but they out range him and out gun him badly.

A single whelp is not going to undo the damage from a boosted conquest or stonewall shot unless your opponent rolled terribly for damage. So by the team he gets into melee, he's already down a lot of life from where he started.

And at pow 19, those 7 attacks he gets actually will not be enough to kill any Colossal on average dice. (assuming he hits them, which is no given with matt 5, he does 7 attacks for 7 damage each, which is 49 vs arm 19, which is not enough to scrap any colossal.

So no...he really doesn't fair well against the other big guys either.

[sourclams]

Pretty much I would fathom to say where MK is going to be strongest is against warmachine with the exception of Cryx, maybe Menoth. And he will be strong against other colossals because he can have 6-7 attacks on that colossal that has max 5 attacks against him.

I don't think a lot of people build lists in a limited list format to take on non-Cryx, non-Hordes lists. And if the reason he doesn't go against Hordes is because he can't survive a buffed beast alpha, then in all honesty he's of limited use against Khador due to being 1 rounded by Behemoth (and a poor choice vs IF infantry).

[HellecticMojo]

So basically what you are saying is that I should bring another list in a 2/3 list tournament and put MtK in the one that is not meant for going against cryx? Solid.

Pretty much I would fathom to say where MK is going to be strongest is against warmachine with the exception of Cryx, maybe Menoth. And he will be strong against other colossals because he can have 6-7 attacks on that colossal that has max 5 attacks against him.

So he didn't break the game nor is he the weakest model for points in the game. He's an 18 pt beast with 2 points of whelps included and a 3 pt auto include (stone). Still don't see doom and gloom.

I think you've missed the point. Even with kill shot going off, over the course of two turns (if it even survives the turn. Cryx guy played right into MK's hand by plinking him) the guy killed not even 15pts worth of model. damaged bonejack, and half a unit of BT's is hardly impressive.
I'm not sure where you see strong against warmachine thing. The colossals have much superior ranged output providing the army with support even before lines are engaged. Conquest can kill the mt king without a hitch, and Judicator can too with the choir (far better at jack protection and performance than we are at beast protection and performance for the cost)

also lack of versatility, what if the opponent doesn't bring a colossal? it struggles to scrap cygnar jacks due to 44% chance of misses. It doesn't cover the field widely enough for infantry killing with it's single spray compared to the lightning pods or the rockets, or the guns on the conquest.

we basically got a model that underperforms in one thing that it's designed to do, lacks support capability, lags in hitting power to our infaction options, and lag in durability. for more expensive cost. Two warwagons and a unit of whelps cost the same and brings so much more to the table that it's not even funny.

[Cannibalbob]

we basically got a model that underperforms in one thing that it's designed to do, lacks support capability, lags in hitting power to our infaction options, and lag in durability. for more expensive cost. Two warwagons and a unit of whelps cost the same and brings so much more to the table that it's not even funny.

Maybe he is a sinister ploy to boost sales for the War Wagon!?!

[sourclams]

we basically got a model that underperforms in one thing that it's designed to do, lacks support capability, lags in hitting power to our infaction options, and lag in durability. for more expensive cost. Two warwagons and a unit of whelps cost the same and brings so much more to the table that it's not even funny.

Well put. It has a further hidden cost in the 'amuck' animus which is really lackluster within our faction replacing up to two of our otherwise generally good/fantastic animi.

[omerplata]

Well put. It has a further hidden cost in the 'amuck' animus which is really lackluster within our faction replacing up to two of our otherwise generally good/fantastic animi.

Also worth noting that his animus is the same as the Skorne Rhinodon. A heavy beast that costs I believe 13 less points, and still do the job better than the MtK. Rhinodon has reach and thresher on his tail at a pow 14 (I think) but it can raged by beast handlers to +2 str, all with the same MAT. So all in all, we pay 20 points for the same amount of infantry killing power that another faction does for 7 points.

(I may be wrong on specifics for the Rhinodon points and stats wise, but I should be right around the correct numbers).

[sourclams]

Can't the rhinodon actually charge and still do its 360 thresher since it's a star attack?

[Benopotomus]

Also worth noting that his animus is the same as the Skorne Rhinodon. A heavy beast that costs I believe 13 less points, and still do the job better than the MtK. Rhinodon has reach and thresher on his tail at a pow 14 (I think) but it can raged by beast handlers to +2 str, all with the same MAT. So all in all, we pay 20 points for the same amount of infantry killing power that another faction does for 7 points.

(I may be wrong on specifics for the Rhinodon points and stats wise, but I should be right around the correct numbers).

Rhindon has 360 tail arc too. While they have lower defensive numbers, you can almost get 3 of them for the price of the Mtn King.

[Leenus]

I think these games were a pretty bad example of where he excels. He does not want be facing a swarm of pow 13 weaponmasters... Banes love an expensive single model, so obviously he won't do well against them. Also, it looks like you threw the MtK against a few banes and were in a position to get counter charged for a bad trade. You know when terminus will have to get close to kill him, so if you're going to make that play, you need to have something set up to threaten terminus after neurons focus to kill the MtK. If you give Terminus an unthreatened activation against the MtK and banes without putting the opponent in a bad position, you're using the MtK wrong.

I guess my point is that this thread has only shown me play error and not design error. He would get a lot more interesting when you properly defend him (say janissa stone wall to stop banes).

What I like about these super beasts is that they die if they aren't positioned carefully, meaning you can't throw them in your opponents face and expect to autowin.

[Benopotomus]

Can't the rhinodon actually charge and still do its 360 thresher since it's a star attack?

Yes, he can do that.

[Benopotomus]

I think these games were a pretty bad example of where he excels. He does not want be facing a swarm of pow 13 weaponmasters...

Please tell me what he is designed to fight, in your estimation.

Seems like he's fitting into the middle zone of:

Troops that are slow, single wounders, low-mid defense, and don't hit too hard.. and are living... and no ranged CRAs... or anything that prevents healing.

Or maybe:

Unbuffed Heavy beasts with low defense that move slower and don't hit hard.

[omerplata]

Can't the rhinodon actually charge and still do its 360 thresher since it's a star attack?

Yes, the thresher can be done on a charge, the Mtk cannot because sweep is a power attack. the tail does have 360 range, so the thresher is everything within 2 inches, not everything on one quadrant within 2 inches.

[HellecticMojo]

Yes, the thresher can be done on a charge, the Mtk cannot because sweep is a power attack. the tail does have 360 range, so the thresher is everything within 2 inches, not everything on one quadrant within 2 inches.

Sweet is a 180 thresher I believe not just a quadrant

[jdripley]

Looks like he's designed to fight Khador heavies one on one.

Or Alexia's Risen in mass numbers. He should do OK against Mechanithralls. Oh, and he ought to be pretty good against Shield Wall infantry - what with their generally moderate to lowish DEF and the Mountain King's high P+S.

I think what makes him OK is that his Sweep attack thing that he does would be considered a special attack, so when clearing infantry with that he gets the boosted attack rolls all for just 1 fury. He doesn't need high MAT against high ARM targets, nor does he really need buffs to his damage to take on high ARM targets.

Overall I'm underwhelmed but only by a little bit.

[omerplata]

I thought that gargantuans and colassals could only attack targets in the right quadrant with the right arm, and same with the left? Or did I misunderstand? Or does sweep read differently? Not too familiar with it yet so I could be mistaken.

Edit: Sweep states that the models makes a melee attack against every model in the weapons field of fire. So you do not get 180 degree, only 90 degrees because you cannot target models in the left field of fire if you declare the sweep with the right arm.

[a spastic ninja]

I'm thinking of running him under Borka with Scouts. Get the scouts in melee with important crap under Mosh Pit, important crap is knocked down, MtK seasons to taste.

[Cannibalbob]

I'm thinking of running him under Borka with Scouts. Get the scouts in melee with important crap under Mosh Pit, important crap is knocked down, MtK seasons to taste.

Doesn't a Mauler do the exact same thing in that situation? I can't think of much that can survive being beaten on by a Mauler while knocked down.

[HellecticMojo]

Doesn't a Mauler do the exact same thing in that situation? I can't think of much that can survive being beaten on by a Mauler while knocked down.

I think the reach does give it a bit of an edge, but yes, you point stands in terms of damage

[sourclams]

Any pure damage comparison is going to leave MtK falling short of faction heavies because the melee dires can all put out as much or more (when medium defense or no-knockdown is taken into consideration) for 8-11 fewer points. "Free" whelps, the spray, single-model buff and health concentration, and innate Gargantuan characteristics (immovable, etc) is what has to be worth the additional points.

[Leenus]

Ben, your sarcasm is great... Super helpful...

The MtK is unique compared to a pair of regular war beasts because it can actually survive the attacks of one retaliating heavy. So there are situations where you can charge, kill a heavy and survive the countercharge from his buddy (or a unit). If you did did that with a regular heavy, you'd lose it. The concentration of boxes let's you set up favorable trades.

It's not easy and not possible to do in every situation, but that's the role I'd use. In game one of the OP the MtK almost did that. He killed stuff, took a round of charges, killed more stuff and finally died to terminus. However, the mistake was not having something setup to kill terminus as part of the trade. That's not the MtKs fault and doesnt mean he's a bad choice.

[hooligantuesday]

Because PP wants to protect their poor little cryx from fun abilities that could have an impact on their army?

Speaking of undead being bull****, i love that Mechi-thralls being zombie-robots stops the mountain king from shouting about killing them and stops him eating them, but doesn't stop Skarre from using ritual sacrifice to turn the souls they don't have into focus...

[sourclams]

First, that he can survive the attacks of one heavy is very debatable. There's some stuff that will simply blow through him ARM23/44 boxes or no. P&S22-23 Mulg will 1-round him, as will Last Stand/Fury/Xerxis Feat/Rasheth feat+Debuff BB/Tibbers/Glad, Behemoth, Deathjack+5 ARM debuffs, and any of the Colossi with meaningful faction buffs/debuffs/feats will paste him.

Piece trading is generally a horrible proposition with MtK because it's almost impossible to actually trade favorably. Committing him to offense will probably leave him out of position defensively, so he kills Heavy1 and dies to Heavy2, and playing defensively is almost entirely matchup dependent; whether your opponent has got a list that will put 2 heavies into B2B in a single turn or one superbuffed heavy to do the job.

[Magnus0740]

I'm thinking that MtK might be better as a 2nd wave to a Troll army. If you were to take a full unit of KW with the UA and WA's to make the first strike or to take hit. with beast to buff the MtK with Rush or a STR buff. then have him counter.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Speaking of undead being bull****, i love that Mechi-thralls being zombie-robots stops the mountain king from shouting about killing them and stops him eating them, but doesn't stop Skarre from using ritual sacrifice to turn the souls they don't have into focus...

Ritual Sacrifice has nothing to do with souls. Skarre doesn't collect/use souls, she uses blood and sacrifice. She can use the magic raising the dead to do blah.

I'm thinking that MtK might be better as a 2nd wave to a Troll army. If you were to take a full unit of KW with the UA and WA's to make the first strike or to take hit. with beast to buff the MtK with Rush or a STR buff. then have him counter.

I think this may be right. Instead of going for the beast brick, which is incredibly unwieldy and doesn't protect the MtK nearly as much as it protects our other beasts, protect him with medium base jammy infantry. Will be testing that this Saturday.

So basically what you are saying is that I should bring another list in a 2/3 list tournament and put MtK in the one that is not meant for going against cryx? Solid.

Pretty much I would fathom to say where MK is going to be strongest is against warmachine with the exception of Cryx, maybe Menoth. And he will be strong against other colossals because he can have 6-7 attacks on that colossal that has max 5 attacks against him.

So he didn't break the game nor is he the weakest model for points in the game. He's an 18 pt beast with 2 points of whelps included and a 3 pt auto include (stone). Still don't see doom and gloom.

You know neither do I. I see some people objectively discussing how his stats compare, both within faction and outside of the faction. Then I see some people attacking them because everything simply must be good. Usually using things that are objectively wrong. I can tell you right now, fully buffed MtK does not kill enemy colossals. From firsthand experience, including Rage and Stone Strength and still came up 7 short, and I rolled a 15 on the charge attack. Moreover, at least 2-3 of the Colossals will kill him easily. Especially in lists that take Ragman who is stunning on Colossals. Even more so when you consider the incoming firepower that can be hitting him.

Mayhaps you would like to contribute a bit instead of just attacking other people? Maybe contradict some of their arguments with either table experiences or how their math might be wrong? Because as near as I can tell, the people who are down on the Mountain King are putting forward arguments, planning playtesting, in many cases playing games and coming to their own conclusions. Then they are getting nothing but insults from people who think the Mountain King is better than he looks, with few arguments and fewer examples of games. The constant insults and cries of "doom & gloom" "theorymachine" and whatever pejorative will slip by the mods this week is getting very old.

[PG_thegreatblah]

I'm with the above where , like many of our beasts, he should be a second wave beast. Run him out front to die OR throw your tarpit into the mix with the MK following up for round 2.

His spray is really really good. I mean really good. I don't understand why people hate sprays so much.

[PG_Nicodemus]

His spray is really really good. I mean really good. I don't understand why people hate sprays so much.

And a 10 inch spray to boot! That's just money!

It's not as effective at infantry clearing as all the AOE's the other colossals have, but what it does do is eat important support models for breakfast, and I like that. Goodbye Shepards, Forsaken, Thor, Reclaimers, etc.

It's not as game winning as typhon's 3 eight inchers, but that 10 will still reach a caster pretty easily...not to mention clear out the charge lane of infantry in front of said caster. I did that last night. eMadrak with Warpath, and an Earthborn. MtK sprays to kill the infantry, move Earthborn into the lane...profit.

[cryptomancer]

Mayhaps you would like to contribute a bit instead of just attacking other people? Maybe contradict some of their arguments with either table experiences or how their math might be wrong? Because as near as I can tell, the people who are down on the Mountain King are putting forward arguments, planning playtesting, in many cases playing games and coming to their own conclusions. Then they are getting nothing but insults from people who think the Mountain King is better than he looks, with few arguments and fewer examples of games. The constant insults and cries of "doom & gloom" "theorymachine" and whatever pejorative will slip by the mods this week is getting very old.

No no no, Happy, it's the Optimism Rule. Optimists are always right until proven wrong (and sometimes not even then). Anyone who contradicts the Optimists is clearly some sort of hideous Pod Person who only wants to ruin their fun.

Seriously though, I hear you. It's especially silly in the threads where those posting negative commentary have actually, y'know, played the thing, whereas those posting sunshine and flowers... well... haven't. Hang in there. Maybe there's something we're not seeing. Hell, I never imagined in all my years as a TB player that pDoomshaper would ever win at anything, so there's still room in this faction for surprise.

-crypto

[Benopotomus]

Just played a game with him where my opponent let me charge his unbuffed deathjack. I charged and wasn't able to kill it with all 6 attacks (charge missed, 3 hits total). On the next turn, he returned fire and downed the Mtn King with 8 attacks.

Now I checked the math afterward and it seems to be the case on average that things go this way.
Mtn King will hit with 3/7 attacks and do about 21 damage. The deathjack on the other hand will hit with all 8 attacks and deal 45 dmg on average.

I still won the game, but that was due to shooting past the hole that the Mtn King made.