Games with the Mountain King

[unclebiggins]

Had a third game with the Mountain King before.

Played against Retribution......that was interesting.

I have found that ultra high ARM and good threat ranges are the way to go against Retribution. The War Wagon has had major success because of its ability to doll out KD to their LOW def models and wipe out their high DEF low ARM models, of which Retribution has in spades.

The game was at 50pt

Rahn
-Discordia 10
-Pheonix 10
-Hyperion 19
Mage Unit 5
Mage Unit 5
Magister 3
Arcanist 1
Arcanist 1

I used the following:

eMadrak
-Mountain King
-Axer
-Impaler
Fenns + UA
Champs (max)
KSB (min) + UA


After coming off two games against Cryx with Banethralls, crap tons of undead and ARM debuffs, I would say that this was definately a superior matchup for me. The scaryness of the Hyperions gun was outdone by my naturally high ARM, not being a small base. Further more, Rahn and his feat was near powerless against the mountain king who was would be able to laugh off his offensive spells and even find the Shyeel mages little more than a nusiance under Feat turn. With only the Hyperion, Pheonix and Discordia offering any real resistance to the brute.

This game saw him net the following kills:

Pheonix 10
Hyperion 19 (technically the kill goes to the champion who managed to put a whooping 13 point of damage on him between his two attacks but the Mountain King did the heavy lifting.
Battle Mages (x3)

My opponent folded after Hyperion was scrapped leaving only an engaged Discordia and a few battle mages in his army to deal with
eMadraks feat was awesome this game, he didnt kill a single model this entire game instead just upkeeking warpath, using killing field and standing around the KSB with his buddies.

Further lessons learned.

A melee threat range of 12" on the Mountain King really is his main draw that he brings to the table. This ability to conistantly out threat my enemy has given me the charge in all three games with him and therefore has let me get an activation of attacks.

Snacking and whelp regeneration is huge. I didnt get to use killshot this game because I spent all my attacks during my activation blowing up warjacks.

The MAT 5 was annoying when taking down the Pheonix, its hugely embarassing.

KSB and Rush are two essentials when dealng with the Mountain King, I will have to explore what happens when I play without these buffs into the future.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Played a game against the mountain King tonight:

My list:
Rasheth
Sentry
Sentry
Bronzeback
Gladiator
Gators (max)
Gator (min)
Taskmaster
agonizer x2
Beast handlers

VS:

eDoomy
Mountain King
EBDT
Bomber
KSB (max) + scribe
Fennblades +UA

Turn 1:
I win initiative, spam rush, send my battle group running 10 inches up the board with Sentry's in front. Gators flank to either side. Agonizers get 2 fury each and run behind the beasts.

He goes, pop's mini feat on fennblades, gets a few of them just engaging the sentries and bogs down the middle of the board. His beasts move up to position for counter charges next turn. Mountain king runs up 8, just behind the Earth born who is close to the front lines to benefit from a forest for next turn, about 6 inches shy of the board center. KSB pops arm and no continuous then runs behind the mountain king. eDoomy puts wild aggression on the mountain king, refuge on bomber, then hides behind mountain king.

Turn 2:

Gators get tough from taskmaster. The max group moves up, rerolls vs living, and clears about 6 fennblades out of the way, giving a senty and the bronzeback charge lanes. The second unit goes, and only kills 1 fennblade (but it's the officer) as the rest of the fennblades make 4 tough rolls in a row.

Beast handler walks up and enrage both sentries and the bronzeback, and one walks through the gap towards the mountin king and EBDT. Rasheth goes. moves up, pops feat, catches the EDBT and Barely the mountain king, as well as the remaining fennblades. He arcs blood mark onto the mountain king through the beast handler and hit, dropping arm another 2. Then he breath of corroputions a knocked down fennblade, finally killing him and the fennblade next to him, freeing up the last sentry. Forgot to go with the farrow before rasheth, so they move up a bit and arcane bolt and kill another fennblade.

Bronze back goes, charges the EBDT, and makes it with about a half inch to spare. he spends one for train wreck. First attack hits, he scoots over to melee with the mountain king, and does 12 damage at dice +1 on the charge. He then hits with his next fist on the mountain king at dice +2 (since his is minus 2 for feat and 2 for blood mark), doing 10 damage, head does 7. Buys a fist for 8. Buys another for 9. buys another for 11, and uses his last fury to buy a fist and kills him on double ones. (a ring of whelps is left in the back arc of the dead beast).

Gladiator goes, rushes the sentry, then walks up and tries to kill the last knocked down fennblade, who toughs 2 more times before finally dying. The sentry then charges the ebdt, boosting to hit on the charge, and connects. 10 points of damage. Shield hits without boost, and does 4 points of damage. Finally another spear is bought, hits, and damage is boosted for 9 which kills. Last sentry hands back and tries to kill the remaining fennblades, but can only engage 2, missing badly vs one and finally killing another. 1 agonizer pops his warbeast damage debuff and runs to within 5 of the bomber. The second runs behind the front most sentry.

Gators don't move because I get distracted by a rules question in another game and end my turn before moving either unit, lol.

His Turn:

Fennblades (3 remaining at this point, 1 knocked down) vengeance, kill a beast handler and hit a gladiator for no damage).AT t
eDoomy goes first, upkeeping refuge, and pops feat and channels a primal shock through the bomber, hitting the agonizer. He boosts damage, and does 7, leaving one life. He does it again and misses with bad dice, then finally does it again and kills him (the agonizer was positioned so that to get to rasheth the bomber would have to be within 5, so I guess he really didn't want that -2 dmg).

Bomber moves up about 7 inches to find a gap to see rashesth and get in range, throws shot 1, hits, and boost for 2 dice at +2. He does 9 damage. Second shot hits, Boosts, he rolls boxcars and rasheth has to use his last fury to transfer to a fresh sentry.

At this point we just shake hands and call it.

Our thoughts on the mountain king were that 1) he played him a little to far forward and gave him away with a positioning mistake, 2) he's so big that if you can ever get the distance, you will have many angles to charge into him from and 3) not even the KSB can keep him up vs any army with debuffs.

We're playing again tomorrow with me using a different warlock and with my opponent having a better handle on positioning his pie plate of mountainy doom, so hopefully we will learn even more next time.

[Goris]

Did a 3 way team game tonight at 35pts with Gunny. Not really ideal. My team was Cryx, Cygnar and myself against 2 troll opponents and one Skorne.

35pts is really not where this guy shines I think but the list I composed did exactly what I thought it would do... Also it was a team game. One thing all of the players noted, bring something to punch armor or you pretty much lose. Also, MK vs MK when attacking over the wall and engaging with Whelps gives you a decent chance to miss, which my opponent did leaving my MK alive and ready to attack back. I'm not going to bother with lists and reports as they are largely trivial in a venue like that, but I think that MK will want to be a late game piece and will force your opponent into a perhaps unfavorable piece trade with you. Once his heavies are dead or otherwise unable to get to the MK it's going to be very hard for any opponent to stop you from wiping the board.

[bakaryu]

Played a game on Vassal last night with the MK in the pDoomy list that Goris and I put together which he has listed above, managed to eek out the win though my inexperience with pDoomy showed through. Some of my thoughts:

The MK absolutely hates Wrong Eye with a fiery burning passion, Voodoo doll hits him on 5's and losing his Spirit is not fun at all.
Even with the loss of his Spirit for two out of the five turns of the game he still dominated the area around him, under Fortune he was still consistently hitting and killing Gators or Bone Grinders and then letting rip with his SP10 of doom (more often than not while aiming).
Only once did my opponent make a serious attempt at trying to take down the mountain king, Calaban dropped Parasite on him, a fully boosted Ironback spit and fully loaded a Wrastler but barely even got halfway through his health boxes thanks to the KSB and EBDT animus meaning he was still ARM18.
Still need to get used to the fact that both initials are tied to their fields of fire.

Kill Count:
3 Gatormen (6)
Snapjaw (7)
5 Bone Grinders (3)
Calaban (5 + Battlegroup)

[PG_petegrrrr]

Good lord, how bad did he roll on damage at dice minus 1 to barely get halfway through your health??? charges in, does 9 points of damage, 3 points on claw, 3 points on claw, buys a bite for 6, buys for 6, buys for 6.

With a boosted spit, he should have average about 40 damage. The worst part about crap dice on vassal is you can't even throw the dice or put them away for new ones

[bakaryu]

Well he rolled snake eyes for his charge attack, missing the proverbial broad side of a barn

A whelp also meant that he missed his final attack needing 4's to hit and rolling a 3.

[unclebiggins]

Got another game in with this guy.

Played against pVlad using:

Drago
Berzerker
Spriggan
Doom Reavers
IFP + UA (Black Dragons)
Wardog
Manhunter
Manhunter
Widowmaker Marksmen
Widowmakers
eEiryss


I plonked down a 50pt eHoarluk list that had the following

eDoomy
-Mountain King
-Mulg
-Earthborn
-Slag
-Janessa
-KSB (max) + UA


This was a bloody interesting game. I did a bit of a feign with my Earthborn getting Wild Aggression and running to one side of the map. eEiryss followed and ended up right where I wanted here. The Khador army had little range but our feats gave both of us insane threat ranges, I got to pop my feat to catch the Spriggan and a Berzerker with the Mountain King and the Slag troll.

When the feat was popped the Slag troll put two 4D6 damage rolls on the Spriggan and blew out its Lance, the Mountain King followed up and turned it to scrap and was able to deal enough damage to destroy the cortex and one axe on the Berzerker leaving it with just 5 damage in Column 2 when it was done. Sign and Portents and Vlad wanders a bit behind to avoid a counter charge. The entire unit of Iron Fangs charge and they get a whole 9 with S&P into reach with him. The Earthborn had moved up to cast second wave Elemental Communion and Janessa had dropped the wall so it would both protect her from shooting from all but the Marksmen and boost the ARM of both the Earthborn and the Mountain King. It was a nail biter with those Iron Fangs hitting with a few great hits even at Dice -10 thanks to S&P managed to deal 20 points of damage. They also spawned no fewer than 7 whelps all of which provided me with a solid screen from Drago and the Manhunters. Widowmakers cleared the screen with 3 shots making room for the jack to storm in. Drago had alot going for him at this point and so he ended up sinking the mountain king with about 6 whelps around. A manhunter charges the Slag troll and nearly kills him with a 6,6,6,4 damage roll thanks to just barely ending up within S&P but his luck doesnt hold and the Slag stays alive for his retaliation.

The events of this turn set up Janessa for a Tectonic Shift, Mulg for a Wild Aggression charge that kills more than half of the Iron Fangs and the Earthborn killing another 2 himself and putting the Berzerker out of its misery while leaving Drago without an axe. The Whelps run to heal the Slag who puts down the Manhunter. pVlad stares down his army being totally obliterated in front of him and concedes.

Mountain King destroys in one turn with eDoomy feat and Acidic Touch from Slag Troll:

Spriggan (75 percent of his boxes)
Berzerker (85 perceont of his boxes)

Gets killed by:

9 Iron Fang pikemen attacks and
Drago with 3 focus

Through his abilities, he supported the rest of the gameplan by:

Absorbing an entire unit of Widowmaker attacks in a single turn thanks to whelps
Set up the annihilation of the Iron Fangs, Berzerker,
Provide a large pool of whelps (more than 10 were created throughout its existance, that huge base gives you alot of room to place them, the whelps alone kind accounted for

Did not get to use Killshot or Snacking. Also didnt use the Axer but had eDoomys feat to compensate his threat range. Wild Aggression sure does negate that little problem he has with not hitting things. So does DEF 10 though. ARM 23 was tank though, I think on average rolls that he shouldnt have even killed the Mountain King with just the Black Dragons and Drago but he got lucky. Had he failed, we could have seen the horror of mass whelp regeneration, amuck, wild aggression and see his full regenerative capabilities come to effect in a real game.

I do believe his value moreso than Mulg or the Earthborn has his value determined by your opponents list, if they rely on massed attacks rather than concentrated beatdown to eliminate their targets.

I had come off from witnessing a game featuring a pair of Stormwalls at 75pts though so I understand why players might be so blue about him. On the table he plays better than his stats but I must admit, this far into players throwing Collosals on the table, I think that WM got a bit of an edge out of this cycle.

This guy definately needs support, but when you are going to be putting 20 of your eggs into one basket you tend to be buying some insurance anyway.

Scenario was process of elimination btw.

[Scottl1]

Outside the animus I have never been a fan of the mauler. Whoop di do he has great damage potential but so do most troll heavies. The reason that sets dudes like mulg apart is reach. Though to those who like him at higher pts I'd have to ask why? At higher pts he offers less then mulg. One of heavies big tricks is trample. At higher pts there is more infantry and if your opponent sets their troops out right it is completely denied due to base size.

You would have to play him as a second wave and drop a wall(not for bonus but to stop others). While I don't think he's terrible I would say from a tournament stance I would leave the king at home. I have played against trolls quite a bit and can say the 120 mm bases are not your guys best options. lol

[PG_petegrrrr]

I think one of the big trends we are seeing is that people seem to be forgetting or not accounting for whelp placement. I imagine once they get a few games in against him, they will realize that you ALWAYS charge him with non reach models first, then go in with reach after.

You could probably almost get away with taking him to a tournament until people see a wide release of him. You probably wouldn't win the tournament, but I bet he would do okay until players realized the order of activations needed to kill him.

[goesgoch]

I think one of the big trends we are seeing is that people seem to be forgetting or not accounting for whelp placement. I imagine once they get a few games in against him, they will realize that you ALWAYS charge him with non reach models first, then go in with reach after.

You could probably almost get away with taking him to a tournament until people see a wide release of him. You probably wouldn't win the tournament, but I bet he would do okay until players realized the order of activations needed to kill him.

This. Send the Burrowers in first and if they haven't done it...send in the Fenns!!!

[PG_thegreatblah]

That wasn't you? It was a weird melee focused Gunny list with one or two units of Champs and Winter Trolls. Might be mistaking whose list it was. Double walls to keep stuff off the Champs essentially.

Sounds like something I have made in the past.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Got two games in today.


Lists were very similar. MtK, Mauler, Axer, KSB+UA, Fenns+UA, Fell Caller were the core of both lists. pMadrak + Runebearer + Whelps was the first game, Borka + Champ Hero for the second.


First game was pMadrak against Constance in a Merc list. MtK got jammed up, failing a charge on her feat turn. Killed a bunch of stuff, souled up Constance with Gallant providing Flank tabled MtK through aura. However, was down to 4 focus and Madrak got to her. We talked after and he suggested some possibilities for blocking charge lanes, but there wasn't a lot to be done. So, he did almost nothing, but still caused me to win the game? Don't really know how to feel about this one.


Second game was Borka against an eKreoss tier list with Vengers and Cinerators and 2x Knights and Errants, with Gravus & Seneschals and Fire. Killed most of my Fenns on his feat turn, was about to make the same tragic mistake and fail a charge with the Mtk before I realized that I could get the line on one side, but would have hit the Champ Hero on the other. Must be super careful - hanging him back a turn helped out - though I forgot to use his spray. He later killed the Fire of Salvation and a couple of errants and one Exemplar. Kreoss ended up having to get personally involved in the end and Borka finished him.

*EDIT* Forgot to mention that after I killed Fire, he frenzied on an Exemplar Knight because my opponent didn't attack him. Threshold 6 is awful, if you can't take all 4-5 fury off then you may as well not take any off - and if you don't have any whelps he is basically going to be activating every other turn which is a bitter pill to swallow at 20 points.

He didn't kill much, and I almost screwed myself with him - the infantry helps protect him much better than the +2 Arm from Elemental Communion, however you have to play very carefully and not throw him forward for sure.


I am seeing glimmers of hope, but I am also not seeing the wow factor that I would expect for putting 20 points in to the model. I have figured out why Mulg is so much harder to kill in a beast brick however - a combination of being able to fit behind the wall, be 2 defense higher and thus have the wall put his defense to a meaningful 13 or 15 as opposed to 11, having a much smaller base and having points for flanking solos/screening infantry all combine to make Mulg substantially harder to kill in the context of a beast brick than the MtK can even hope for. The MtK is simply substantially easier to kill than Mulg with the Janissa/Earthborn/KSB trick. Not easier to kill for the points, but outright substantially easier to kill. Adding in Eiryss shooting off animi much easier and being a much easier target for Harm/Parasite/What have you exaggerates the issue.


However, with solid screening infantry it becomes a great deal harder to kill the MtK. It also becomes much harder to use it however. More testing is required, but I definitely am done testing the beast brick, the MtK simply does not work in that list. I can't recommend enough to not field the MtK alongside the Earthborn. The synergy is not as good as would be thought.

[unclebiggins]

Spent longer on vassal this weekend playing this guy than I should have, got two more games in.

Game 1 vs Protectorate at 75PC (with eFeora) vs pMadrak

Game 2 vs Cygnar at 50PC (with Siege and a Stormwall) vs eGrissel


eFeora list had most of the typical Menoth trappings. Off the top of my head it featured:

Avatar
Blood of Martyrs
Castigator
Revenger
Knights Errant (max) + UA
Daughters (2 units)
Zealots + UA
Choir Max
Vessel of Judgement
Vassal Mechanic
Vassal
eEiryss

my list featured

pMadrak
-Mountain King
-Axer
-Mauler
Champions
Kriel Warriors + UA + WA
KSB (Max) + UA
Nyss Hunters
Fellcaller
Hero
Whelps
Chronicler


I got lucky with a victory as 2 of my 3 Nyss Hunters scored lucky hits on Feora putting her in the ground, by the end of the game I was without beasts and despite my reasonible field position wouldnt have lasted long against Feora trying to cap Madrak in the following round or rounds.

Where this game applies to the Mountain King:

Terrain was quite helpful for me this game. There was loads of forests on the map with 3 terrain features within 8" of the middle of the map. The lack of pathfinder on most things Menoth gave me a fair amount of inititive and I was able to trade both the Avatar and the Castigator very cheaply. Once again a 12" threat range on the Mountain King was very helpful, on feat turn I charged my Hero who killed 6 Zealots and would have killed the UA if not for his tough roll. This gave me space for the Mountain King to destroy the Castigator. The Zealots used mini feat and surrounded my mountain king to stall him and he was retaliated on by a choired up Blood of Martyrs who did way more damage than I would have liked. From its 4 attacks I was left close to death with 12 damage boxes left. I had six whelps out until Vessel of Judgement burned away a few with his admonisher attack. The damage from that attack gave me another two whelps that I used to seal up charge lanes from the Errants.

It did survive that turn but surrounded by Zealots it couldnt hurt, it had to clear its fury from the whelp and do its best to destroy Blood of Martyrs. I had some bad rolls and missed 2 of its 6 attacks I made but was still able to destroy its movement and left arm leaving it with 6 boxes left between column 5 and 6. I sent one attack on a Knight Errant hoping to trigger Kill Shot but Self Sacrifice denied it and so I just focused down the Blood of Martyrs. It healed back to 19 damage from the whelps but I also spawned 4 of my 5 bought whelps from this effort.

Mountain King Destroyed:
Castigator
Blood of Martys (80 percent of)
1 Knight Errant

Mountain King was Killed by (approximately):
Blood of Martyrs (42 damage and the killing blow)
Vessel of Judgement (6 damage)
x4 Knights Errant (8 damage from charge attacks)

Mountain King supported by:
Axer
KSB + UA
Whelps (4 of 5)


The mountain King fell shy of bringing back in his points this game, though I felt as though he managed to tank a reliable amount of the opponents energy. He ended up commiting the Zealots mini-feat, pretty much all of his Errants and two of his three heavy warjacks to putting him down. Again he didnt wow me and he wasnt a endless chain of destruction but his contribution to the game felt pretty fair for his points. By the end of turn 4 he left me in a comfortable position where my opponent didnt have any heavy warjacks left on the table.

The Mountain King even if he isnt super dangerious (and I mean that fairly losely as 6 odd POW 19/20 attacks is pretty damn dangerious but as stated before we get that in Mulg for nearly half the cost), he requires the attention of all your enemies heavy hitters. If he doesnt get that, then he heals back very quickly and ends up beating you down in following turns. In practise the whelp spawnage is very very powerful, I am in two minds about buying the unit of whelps however, it does notable amplifiy its strength as when you spawn two whelps from one point of damage you close off charge lanes very very quickly.

We played using just Kill Box.


My second game against Brisbane actually went quite well. From the top of my head his list was:

Brisbane
-Triumph (I asked him why but turns out he likes it)
-Cyclone
-Avenger
-Squire
Gunmages + UA
-Defender
Stormlancers (max)
Black 13
Laddermore
JNR
Gorman Di Wulfe
eEiryss (every game I have played in the last 6, all against warmachine have either been Cryx or had eEiryss in it)
Reinholdt

my list was as follows:

eGrissel
-Mountain King
-Slag Troll
-Axer
Long Riders (max)
Fenns (max) + UA
Sons of Bragg
KSB (min) + UA
Horthol
War Wagon
Runebearer
Totem Hunter

My opponent had lots of guns and some pretty good ARM on their side. I was worried that I would be out tanked this fight but things went pretty well for me this game. The War Wagon and Mountain Kings formed a centre with the KSB right behind them. They ran and trampled forward turn one and two any enemy stayed back. The War Wagon got to put a shot onto the Stormlancers and KD the two in the lead that I was worried would charge the Mountain King. I popped my feat as my Fennblades ran forward with the mini-feat to gum up the enemies lines, I popped the UA mini feat early and with dash I was able to block the charge lanes of all the cavalry and engage both the Avenger and the B13 by the time he popped his feat. The Fenns did an admirable job holding up to the Stormlancers and B13. Even though most died I got terror onto the Black 13 that caused them to flee and was able to kill Laddermore with a freestrike I am sure she didnt want. Brisbane had moved forward a fair bit to get my models into his feat range and he sat 13" away from the Mountain King when he opened up with a round from Triumph and the Defender on him. Without the Stormblades to soften him up the Mountain King laughed off this round of shooting with most of his life intact. The Cyclone however managed to kill 2/3rds of the Sons of Bragg but Rhudd (or whoever does the spray) was cowardly out of range of his attacks and so would get his assault charge next round.

The Mountain King then charged the Stormlancers and killed 3 of them despite Arcane Shield after healing 5 damage from the Whelps that spawned last turn. The Fenns vengeance and chop apart the B13 and Rhudd charges and puts a RAT 8 spray that kills the Gunmage UA and another is gutted by his blade. My Longriders charge another stormlance and run, one of them catches Gorman Di Wulf in his reach which is important cause he could hit the Mountain King with a blind grenade. Grissel marches up and puts an uproar onto the Gunmages and casts inhospital ground. The war wagon hits and KD's the Avenger and does about 2 damage. The Slag moves up and starts melting the Avenger who loses 2 and a half columns but no systems to the crack shots from the acidic spit.

Its at this point my opponent recognises that unless he gets of an assination on Grissel the he will lose. Laddermore goes in and tries to Save Gormans Life but her charge attack is left wanting and my Long rider have 2 hp left. The Jnr warcaster then has a crack boosting to hit and damage and kills him. Gorman puts the oil onto my Mountain King. The damage has already been done though, the Cyclone wipes out my last four Fennblades with his five metal storm attacks before the Avenger, Brisbane and Defender all have a crack on eGrissel. The Avenger misses which sets up the next two hits from the Defender and Grissel to be taken and transferred away. I give the Mountain King the opportunity to stumble around before rolling a 13, hitting and eating Gorman. Horthol and the rest of the Longriders clear out the right flank while the War Wagon charges and through impact attacks, trampling hoofes and its cannon Knock down both the Avenger and Brisbane while putting 6 damage on the latter. eGrissel then shows Brisbane how to do ranged assassination and blows him down to just one damage point where my lurking Totem Hunter has a go and claims a trophy.

This was a rather tame game for the Mountain King but it show cases how difficult it can be to destroy if you dont have the damage output for it. As I mentioned it was followed by the KSB and the War Wagon and Longriders made it most the major and lesser of the evils that Brisbane was facing. His feat could put a solid hit of damage on it but afterwards it was just too tough to wipe out with the rest of his attacks and would leave most of my army intact. The two huge bases together created a hugh 10" screen for my support and otherwise being incredibly intimidating.

Mountain King Kills:

1 Gunmage (with a long range spray top of turn 2)
Gorman Di Wulfe (Top of turn 4)
3 Storm Lancers (Charge on turn 3)


Mountain King Attacks absorbed (hey he didnt die this game)

x3 Defender rounds, one of them under Brisbanes Feat
Gorman Di Wulfe Black Oil (admittedly this is very bad)

Thanks to whelp regeneration and Snacking he healed roughly 12 of this damage back which left him in a very healthy state. Even had Brisbane chosen to play it safe instead of go for Grissel, with his remaining pieces there was no way that he was going to take down the Mountain King easily, leaving him to face a slow painful death by Meaty Fist.

The only support I really got or needed this game was from the KSB.

This was the only game I played where the Mountain King didnt die, it was also one where he killed the least and absorbed the least attacks however I feel that he was instrumental in me winning this game. He forced my opponents hand and his ARM of 21 combined with his effective SPD of 7 made him capable of getting anywhere and killing anything.

[bakaryu]

Tonight I will be playing my version of the Gunnbjorn floating fortress:

Gunnbjorn (-5)
> Mountain King (20)
> Winter Troll (5)
> Axer (6)
> Runebearer (2)
Max Fennblades (8)
> UA (2)
Min KSB and Scribes (3)
> UA (1)
Janissa (3)
Fell Caller (3)
Whelps (2)

My opponent is likely to bring either pCaine or a Kromac tier4 list, will see what he brings to the table and will hopefully report on it either tonight or tomorrow!

[ZenDruid]

I can't wait to own this model for its looks alone but not having played it my theory is untested. I see a 35pt eDoomie list with 2 MtKs and a Feralgeist. Go ahead and take one down (generating whelps the whole time) then I pick it back up with the geist, and hit you with both the next round.

[Phatheadaf]

@ OP and everyone else...

I was encouraged by my local meta to chime in on this forum and thread, after debating the effectiveness of the Mountain Troll at length, and facing it on the table. I think this piece is much better than the Troll players are giving it credit for; and I will consent that there are some general issues with the Gargantuans with regards to efficiency of Fury per point, and battlegroup balance. However, the survivability of this thing is off the charts and that is the real value of this 20 point model...

The ability of a piece to get to ARM 23 is no small deal. I know the poo poo on the idea of leveraging 16 points to get it there, and the claims that it's not worth it. I disagree, on many fronts, mostly in that ARM 23 IMHO is not just tough to deal with (pun intended) but threatens the balance of the game. Going over ARM 20 is where problems begin, being able to be there reliably on a piece that has this many boxes and the max healing ability means that a list built and designed to take advantage of this will be near impossible to beat in many scenarios games. It's intended to be able to be a reactive piece, that dictates opposing board position, and that plays right into the hands of the brick style that Trolls takes advantage of better than any other faction. I know that is going to garner criticism; however think about it. Let your opponent break on your ARM 23 48 hit box, healing model. Then retaliate, feast on what is there, heal, and grind. Rinse and repeat. He is nearly a win condition unto himself in a strong list.

I have heard and read the critique that it doesn't deal the damage that most would expect. I'd argue that is the case for all the Colossal and Gargantuan. They have the ability to mow thru infantry, and I think the expectation was that they would be heavy jack and beast killers. The fact that this thing can thresh, and heal on boosted attack rolls is off the charts redonk. He can then spray, and use the left over Fury to burn more infantry. All the while snacking and healing.

You need two POW 20 Heavies to have a prayer of killing his thing in one turn, assuming the aforementioned ARM 23. Not being able to trade pieces for this piece in one turn is the single biggest advantage it has; and as a beast (meaning it's nearly always fully functional), especially with it's healing ability, the advantage is significant. This game's balance is based on how models impact the game, and what it take to remove them. When playing games, the key consideration we make on each turn is what it takes to remove threats off the board. The reality is that when you can dial one of these things up to the point where they really can't be removed in one turn, that is an issue that warrants serious consideration.

A lot of argument in my own meta stemmed from the fact that the ARM 23 is only useful if you continue to "brick", making it so you could not go out and threaten your opponent; however, I would say that is exactly the way to do it. They will have to feed you infantry or pieces at some point, and you take what they give you, mow through what is there, and brick up again. The constant ARM 23 will wear your opponent down, and that is the ultimate argument for this piece being very viable.

The usefulness of the POW 16 RNG 10" is really being overlooked. I know the RAT is poor, but you have to always consider the boost is essentially part of it. That changes things. He can trample and use the spray, charge and use the spray, spray out of combat, etc. The spray gives him the unique ability to remove key UAs and solos that were otherwise hidden, or unreachable.

IMHO opinion, there is something hidden in the Gunbjorn list with this guy. Mountain Troll, Rok, and Earthborn, start with those 40 points, and I bet you have a very formidable start to a really excellent skew list that nobody is going to believe works well at 50 points and up.

Overall I don't expect most to agree, but consider the survivability, the board control, and the spray. Play test the piece. Please note, I'm NOT saying there is no bad matchups or that no list can handle this. I'm simply suggesting that the Mountain Troll offers much more consideration than I feel Troll players are giving him credit for currently. He very much has a role in many 50 point lists and higher, as well as on the competitive table. It's no skin off my back if Troll players en masse decide not to play this guy, in fact that works just fine for me .

A.

[Mountain King]

@ OP and everyone else...

I was encouraged by my local meta to chime in on this forum and thread, after debating the effectiveness of the Mountain Troll at length, and facing it on the table. I think this piece is much better than the Troll players are giving it credit for; and I will consent that there are some general issues with the Gargantuans with regards to efficiency of Fury per point, and battlegroup balance. However, the survivability of this thing is off the charts and that is the real value of this 20 point model...

The ability of a piece to get to ARM 23 is no small deal. I know the poo poo on the idea of leveraging 16 points to get it there, and the claims that it's not worth it. I disagree, on many fronts, mostly in that ARM 23 IMHO is not just tough to deal with (pun intended) but threatens the balance of the game. Going over ARM 20 is where problems begin, being able to be there reliably on a piece that has this many boxes and the max healing ability means that a list built and designed to take advantage of this will be near impossible to beat in many scenarios games. It's intended to be able to be a reactive piece, that dictates opposing board position, and that plays right into the hands of the brick style that Trolls takes advantage of better than any other faction. I know that is going to garner criticism; however think about it. Let your opponent break on your ARM 23 48 hit box, healing model. Then retaliate, feast on what is there, heal, and grind. Rinse and repeat. He is nearly a win condition unto himself in a strong list.

I have heard and read the critique that it doesn't deal the damage that most would expect. I'd argue that is the case for all the Colossal and Gargantuan. They have the ability to mow thru infantry, and I think the expectation was that they would be heavy jack and beast killers. The fact that this thing can thresh, and heal on boosted attack rolls is off the charts redonk. He can then spray, and use the left over Fury to burn more infantry. All the while snacking and healing.

You need two POW 20 Heavies to have a prayer of killing his thing in one turn, assuming the aforementioned ARM 23. Not being able to trade pieces for this piece in one turn is the single biggest advantage it has; and as a beast (meaning it's nearly always fully functional), especially with it's healing ability, the advantage is significant. This game's balance is based on how models impact the game, and what it take to remove them. When playing games, the key consideration we make on each turn is what it takes to remove threats off the board. The reality is that when you can dial one of these things up to the point where they really can't be removed in one turn, that is an issue that warrants serious consideration.

A lot of argument in my own meta stemmed from the fact that the ARM 23 is only useful if you continue to "brick", making it so you could not go out and threaten your opponent; however, I would say that is exactly the way to do it. They will have to feed you infantry or pieces at some point, and you take what they give you, mow through what is there, and brick up again. The constant ARM 23 will wear your opponent down, and that is the ultimate argument for this piece being very viable.

The usefulness of the POW 16 RNG 10" is really being overlooked. I know the RAT is poor, but you have to always consider the boost is essentially part of it. That changes things. He can trample and use the spray, charge and use the spray, spray out of combat, etc. The spray gives him the unique ability to remove key UAs and solos that were otherwise hidden, or unreachable.

IMHO opinion, there is something hidden in the Gunbjorn list with this guy. Mountain Troll, Rok, and Earthborn, start with those 40 points, and I bet you have a very formidable start to a really excellent skew list that nobody is going to believe works well at 50 points and up.

Overall I don't expect most to agree, but consider the survivability, the board control, and the spray. Play test the piece. Please note, I'm NOT saying there is no bad matchups or that no list can handle this. I'm simply suggesting that the Mountain Troll offers much more consideration than I feel Troll players are giving him credit for currently. He very much has a role in many 50 point lists and higher, as well as on the competitive table. It's no skin off my back if Troll players en masse decide not to play this guy, in fact that works just fine for me .

A.

You dont need 2 POW 20 heavies to kill the MK in a single turn. Math has been done and many factions have single heavies that can wreck it in one turn. Don't even get me started on Bane Thralls and what they can do to the MK. Also note that anything that isn't living really cuts down on MK ability to heal. Which according to you is what makes him so obnoxious, well if 60% of his healing is suddenly cut off just because they are not living models it really puts a damper on his one and only strength. When the Witch Doctor comes out every faction will be able to just throw undead models in the MKs face.

[PG_petegrrrr]

arm 23 assumes that you have points for a KSB and points for an Earthborn, which if you do, badly limits your list anyway (33 points minimum already spent).

Even so, most factions have damage buffs or armor debuffs to take care of that issue (or purification in some cases), so a single heavy is more than capable of taking down a Mountain King.

believe me, I now have 3 of them under my belt thanks to rasheth and bronzebacks/sentries.

Rasheth feat + blood mark = back down to arm 19, which means my bronzeback is doing flat dice damage, which is awesome.

To assume that you can buff armor but somehow your opponent cannot buff damage or debuff armor is an awesome way to lose a lot of matches

[Goris]

There's no assuming. Bring pDoomy and put banishing ward on the MK, problem solved. Almost every arm debuff in this game is a spell. Not foolproof but a step in the right direction, list building wise...

[PG_Celedor]

It seems like the one major hang up everyone has is the point trade ratio with opponent's has never been so tipped. Knowing that, even with the right Warlock and support pieces, opponents can wipe him out in one turn, and with far less points invested in doing so, is hard to wrap your head around. And with Gargantuan rules it's also much harder to protect this high cost model than previous ones, and unlike the Colossal models ours is more dependent on engaging to exploit his strengths.

But just because it's possible to kill doesn't mean it will be easy, with Trolls it rarely is. So it falls to us to, not just apply him, but the rest of our army in a way that opponents tear their hair in frustration and terror as we thwart their plans to kill the Mountain King.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I can't wait to own this model for its looks alone but not having played it my theory is untested. I see a 35pt eDoomie list with 2 MtKs and a Feralgeist. Go ahead and take one down (generating whelps the whole time) then I pick it back up with the geist, and hit you with both the next round.

I don't know. Sure, the Feralgeist brings it back, for a couple of might Mat 5 Pow 19s or maybe a Rat 5 Pow 16 spray, but unboostable and almost none of the things we use to help out either of those issues work. Not to mention, getting the extra 3 damage isn't really impossible by any stretch of the imagination especially at ARM 19. I could see it being fun just because 2 MtKs WHAT? factor but, I don't know that it would be super hard to deal with.

It seems like the one major hang up everyone has is the point trade ratio with opponent's has never been so tipped. Knowing that, even with the right Warlock and support pieces, opponents can wipe him out in one turn, and with far less points invested in doing so, is hard to wrap your head around. And with Gargantuan rules it's also much harder to protect this high cost model than previous ones, and unlike the Colossal models ours is more dependent on engaging to exploit his strengths.

But just because it's possible to kill doesn't mean it will be easy, with Trolls it rarely is. So it falls to us to, not just apply him, but the rest of our army in a way that opponents tear their hair in frustration and terror as we thwart their plans to kill the Mountain King.

This is what I am coming too - this thing as the centerpiece of the army being buffed to ARM 23 and spending loads of points doing so seems to not work every time I try it - though caveat I have not tried it with pDoomy. Banishing Ward does solve some problems with debuffs - but does not solve a lot of the ways things can beat through it. I have found in my testing that using it at normal ARM 21 with KSB and actually having other infantry and threats is by far the better way to handle it.

The difference between ARM 23 on the MtK and ARM 23 on Mulg, or even ARM 22 on the other heavies in the beast brick is staggering on the table. Not in the MtK's favor. The ability to hide behind the wall, the slightly higher defenses getting bumped to the point where they actually matter, the easier maneuverability, the enhanced synergy between Mulg & the Earthborn, the screening infantry or flanking solos that you can afford. Mulg is simply leagues more survivable on table than the MtK in the context of a beast brick and trying to take advantage of ARM 23.

It is not even comparable - it is also not really something you see until you get it on the table and start running into some of the problems the MtK beast brick has - Earthborns running around at Pow 15 - particularly against other Colossals is also especially harsh, but putting it on the table against solid players just really starts showing some of the weaknesses. I think trying to run the MtK around at ARM 23 is a trap and have had much more success using him in other ways with minimal support.

[PG_Celedor]

He's on the hobby table now. Such an amazing model, a real joy to paint. When I do finish him (hopefully this week), my first list will be lacking the EB/Janissa combo and maybe even the KSB. I want to run him with eMadrak and swarm the enemy with hard hitting infantry, maybe eliminating some of the bigger threats, before bringing the MtK in to mop up. Really though, I'm just so damn excited to have the opportunity to get him on the table and try him out with all sorts of stuff.

[PG_machine007]

He's on the hobby table now. Such an amazing model, a real joy to paint. When I do finish him (hopefully this week), my first list will be lacking the EB/Janissa combo and maybe even the KSB. I want to run him with eMadrak and swarm the enemy with hard hitting infantry, maybe eliminating some of the bigger threats, before bringing the MtK in to mop up. Really though, I'm just so damn excited to have the opportunity to get him on the table and try him out with all sorts of stuff.

This.

I can't wait to get one just to paint it and just play with him. Critical application aside.

[PG_petegrrrr]

There's no assuming. Bring pDoomy and put banishing ward on the MK, problem solved. Almost every arm debuff in this game is a spell. Not foolproof but a step in the right direction, list building wise...

Well, that takes care of some armor debuffs (not cryx's, and not feats like rasheth or seige or eSorcha, or the now suddenly much more popular thanks to colossals ragman), but does not take care of buffs to opponents power (beasthandlers, lightning shroud, fury, battle lust, etc, etc).

So once again, assuming, uma thurman, and so forth.

[Goris]

The statement was more tongue and cheek then anything, but this can go around and round really. Really all this does is force a different list building paradigm. Seems to me like something we can take advantage of...

[Chiller]

Have had a couple of games with him. Have to admit I made the mistake of trying to use him as an alpha strike initially and as such has died horribly each time.

In 75pt games running as second wave has worked much better although in most cases 2 heavies + whelps would have performed as well if not better, although he has tended to draw fire from opponents not experienced at fighting him.

However I feel compelled to point out he is rather suseptable to being 1 shotted for a colossal/Gargantuan.
In recent games against Khador he was taken out in 1 turn by a charging unit of doom reavers, cylena & nyss + BE cleared out the screening troops before the doom reaver charge.
eSorcha I have found to be a major problem for MtK there is very little that blocks her LOS to him so will almost always get caught in her feat and be killed in than turn.

But on the plus side he is great for allowing our troops to benefit from "charge of the trolls" from the stone scribe.

[ZenDruid]

eSorcha I have found to be a major problem for MtK there is very little that blocks her LOS to him so will almost always get caught in her feat and be killed in than turn.

Gargantuans can't be made stationary

I just played 2 games proxying in the MtK. Tried the 2 MtK's and the feralgeist. It worked as about as well as you probably all predicted. I could have stretched it further but still a mostly losing proposition. The second game was played at 15pts against eThag and he faired much better.

[Brettman008]

Gargantuans can't be made stationary

I just played 2 games proxying in the MtK. Tried the 2 MtK's and the feralgeist. It worked as about as well as you probably all predicted. I could have stretched it further but still a mostly losing proposition. The second game was played at 15pts against eThag and he faired much better.

pSorsha makes things stationary. He was playing vs. eSorsha who doubles the damage models take in her control area. In all fairness not much is going to survive Beast 09 with 4 focus and Boundless Charge on her feat turn.

[PG_petegrrrr]

I spent all today playing games with stormwall, and holy crap, with Ragman he is brutal. I fully expect to see a ragman in any list that can take him and a colossal at this point.

We played a team game vs a mountain king and then a legion player with the battle engine and pThags.

The Stormwall blasted a few chunks into the mountain king turn 1, then turn two our opponent made what seems to be a common mistake with mountain king in trying to rush him up in the first wave to get some points before he gets blasted. He charged into some shocktroopers my team mate was running, killed 3 of them (he missed them twice...) then sprayed into a a fourth killing him and nearly killing the bombardier behind him.

The next round, Ragman walked up and popped his dark shroud ability, stormwall walked up on the mountain king (full tilt on stormwall is AWESOME), and proceeded to hit at dice +1 dmg even with the KSB aura. the mountain king had about 10 damage on him after being healed by the whelps he spawned turn 1, Stormwall did a little better than average on dice, and the 4th attack killed him.

Ragman is just a whole new problem if the Mountain King tries to go toe to toe with another colossal, and with a couple game under my belt now against him, I am firmly in the camp that
he is not a front line unit at all. He is a second wave model and should be kept back as much as possible in the early going. Trying to move him up to get a spray off or something will just get him killed early.

His spray is like eFeora's. It looks so good on paper, but trying to get it off is a great recipe for getting murdered.

[Mountain King]

I spent all today playing games with stormwall, and holy crap, with Ragman he is brutal. I fully expect to see a ragman in any list that can take him and a colossal at this point.

We played a team game vs a mountain king and then a legion player with the battle engine and pThags.

The Stormwall blasted a few chunks into the mountain king turn 1, then turn two our opponent made what seems to be a common mistake with mountain king in trying to rush him up in the first wave to get some points before he gets blasted. He charged into some shocktroopers my team mate was running, killed 3 of them (he missed them twice...) then sprayed into a a fourth killing him and nearly killing the bombardier behind him.

The next round, Ragman walked up and popped his dark shroud ability, stormwall walked up on the mountain king (full tilt on stormwall is AWESOME), and proceeded to hit at dice +1 dmg even with the KSB aura. the mountain king had about 10 damage on him after being healed by the whelps he spawned turn 1, Stormwall did a little better than average on dice, and the 4th attack killed him.

Ragman is just a whole new problem if the Mountain King tries to go toe to toe with another colossal, and with a couple game under my belt now against him, I am firmly in the camp that
he is not a front line unit at all. He is a second wave model and should be kept back as much as possible in the early going. Trying to move him up to get a spray off or something will just get him killed early.

His spray is like eFeora's. It looks so good on paper, but trying to get it off is a great recipe for getting murdered.

You think that is bad, wait til you see the Storm Wall paired with Kraye. Guided Fire or Full Tilt on Storm Wall = stupid. Yes he can also take the Ragman.
20" run on Stormwall is just bad news, a 15" charge threat every turn from it is also bad, and the feat makes it 17". Guided Fire with the sheer volume of ranged attacks this thing pumps out in a given turn makes for one helluva round of shooting to behold.

As far as MK goes, it is really bad that a 20 point investment with 1 ranged attacked HAS to be religated to a back line model. Especially when it's ranged attack is only 10" and to top that off he is a beatstick. If I want to use a late game Beatstick model I can just bring Mulg that is leaps and bounds better for 8 points cheaper.

[PG_petegrrrr]

I was running my stormwall with Kraye.

That's why I said "Full Tilt on Stormwall is AWESOME"

[Mountain King]

Totally missed that part lol