So.. Hyperion, listbuilding , and SR

[Gremlingsp]

So a few of us in my group have started planning some 50pt lists for this fall. Thinking about going to warmachine weekend. So the question is assuming Hyperion is out what are the considerations for putting it in a list? At 18 pts its not a lot of room past 35. What are some of your thoughts on it. Since many lists seem to run light on the battlegroup would putting Hyperion in instead of a regular jack and then building as normal be ideal? When building a list do you bring hyperion to fill a specific role? I mean Rahn, and kaelyssa like Pheonix for arc node and general awesomeness. Ravyn works well with Discordia, Ossy with Hypnos, etc. Does the Hyperion work in the same way for list building?

I'd just like to get a discussion going on thoughts for how he's going to fit. What role he is going to fill. and If 50pts is enough to start including them or if we would be better to wait until 75? If you look at some of the 50pt lists for master and L&L like bakaryu's. If I was to try and put a hyperion in there I think it would break what made those lists work.

On the same hand if we don't use hyperion do we need to worry about adding tools to deal with Collosals/gargs or do we have enough built in to deal with them. (I personally think we have enough in normal lists to deal with one. 2 might have to break out ossy and bring the rain.)

I know we have a few threads discussing various tricks with Hyperion and birds eye, snipe etc, but as a list overall I'm not sure how it fits. I'm almost thinking he may just be best used as the only warjack in certain lists.

[NEoJoe]

I honestly think this question extends to the entirety of the game now. All factions. "How do we crack armor" straight up isn't a question anymore. For anyone. "How do we crack armor, and I don't feel like spending a ton of money to do it" might be, but all factions have high POW attacks now. Except Gators, but that'll happen eventually apparently.

Before Colossals, we couldn't send a Myrmidon after a hard target and expect to kill it, or in the case of VERY hard targets, do much of anything to it. Suddenly, POW 22. And our usual access to things like Vortex, A+H, and KD effects to pin down wolves and such apply as well. I think this might, overall, change the game and knock some 'casters down. If Terminus harvests five souls, we can throw him 8" thataway, then get to work on his horde. eLylyth might end up struggling quite a bit to take down Hyperion if we put Discordia behind it and throw either IR on it or Banishing Ward to prevent Pincushion.

I might be wrong on all counts, I really just want to see this thread take off. But these might change the game quite a bit, and it'll be exciting to see where things settle.

[Gremlingsp]

I have to agree. I was reading the cryx forum and their trying to figure how to take out phaley with a stowmwall or 2. With the covering fire they can't just apply banes to face. Now we don't have the same problems with phaley. But the thought exercise is still there. We now have access to something that can reliably down another heavy in a turn. Granted even with p+s22 we aren't going to down a collosal. I still don't think that their auto includes in lists though. For 18 pts we can bring allot of other models.

I'm not sure you can say well Hyperion has to do more for this list than x+y to be worth it. One aspect I do like is you get allot of firepower without anymore focus drain than 1 jack.

[PG_kerensky]

I think for most lists that use 2 heavies a Hyperion is an acceptable trade. Unless your after specific number for eVyros synergy or arc nodes, the Hyperion offers comparable firepower with less focus use.

[Gho5t]

Someone mentioned it in another thread, but Colossals are perfect targets for Backlash. Then it doesn't matter if you do piddly damage. All that really matters is 16+ models do damage to it, and with lots of our lists being Infantrymachine, this isn't too difficult.

Do Colossals get the in-melee bonus when targeted by ranged attacks?

[PG_kerensky]

No bonus for colossals being in melee
But then most of the colossals have anti infantry options built in.
I've been toying with a T4 Kaelyssa at 50 mixing backlash with 2 mhsf, might try melding in a Hyp for extra punch and drop to t3

[Mastershake]

My thought on Colossals/Gargantuans goes a little contrary to others. I've read/heard a number of "probably not at 35, maybe at 50" which is what got the idea for the Wrath of the Titans going. At 50pts you get everything you want, so the ability to break armor comes pretty naturally, but at 35pts there are more trade-offs making it more likely enemy armor cracking is concentrated in smaller numbers of models that can be dealt with while generally disregarding everything else.

Hell I'm looking at a pair of 15pt Highlander lists (one jack, one solo, one unit one caster), that go about like this:

Ravyn
-Hyperion
Arcanist
Heavy Rifle Team

pVyros
-Hyperion
Arcanist
Heavy Rifle Team

Considering that good Ret heavies generally fall into the 10pt bracket and are notably less hard hitting and survivable than Hyperion at more than half the points I think it wouldn't be a bad idea at most point levels to just run a Hyperion Battlegroup. That's not to say it's the answer to every problem by any means, but it brings hitting power, a lot of hit points, RFP and anti-tough for small bases and lots of fun power attack shennanigans all for a reasonable point value.

As far as dealing with colossals, most of them really don't have me that concerned. I've never gotten the "how do we break armor?" thing most players seemed to have picked up since most Ret units can do a good bit of damage even at range.

[PG_Emberwild]

I heard of a unit of sentinels took down a Conquest at lock and load. I didn't see it but I can believe it. those guys hit hard. The biggest problem in facing another colossal is they are all aimed at eliminating infantry which hurts us a lot especially without a jack caster in the mix yet. Colossals will have a big impact on the game as a whole.

[Jakal]

I think Hyperion's good at pretty much any point level if you've got the right caster. With pVyros, Ravyn or Kaelyssa it would make a good first jack any time. For Rahn or Ossyan you'd want other jacks first, so I'd only be interested at higher point levels, I don't think you've ever what him with eVyros and I have no idea about Garryth.

As for combating other Colossal lists I don't think we've got much of a problem

* Any Hyperion List
* Kaelyssa with backlash and MHSF
* Ossyan on feat turn, ideally with Hypnos
* eVyros jack heavy with synergy
* Charging Sentinels against anything that isn't a stormwall

[Gremlingsp]

He could probably work with Garryth. Death Sentence could be mean with those strafe attacks or a sweep. For Kaelyssa I don't know that I can give up a phoenix for hyperion.

Allot of people who take a collassal probably plan to hide behind it. I know I probably would. Thats not huge issue as we can MHSF them anyway.
As for protecting them I think I'd rather shoot with Hyperion most of the time than melee. If you position correctly you can have enough infantry that another heavy either can't get in range to attack or at least has a very hard time of it.

[bakaryu]

Someone mentioned it in another thread, but Colossals are perfect targets for Backlash. Then it doesn't matter if you do piddly damage. All that really matters is 16+ models do damage to it, and with lots of our lists being Infantrymachine, this isn't too difficult.

Do Colossals get the in-melee bonus when targeted by ranged attacks?

That was me in an earlier thread

I heard of a unit of sentinels took down a Conquest at lock and load. I didn't see it but I can believe it. those guys hit hard. The biggest problem in facing another colossal is they are all aimed at eliminating infantry which hurts us a lot especially without a jack caster in the mix yet. Colossals will have a big impact on the game as a whole.

This was also me, and yes it was a mix of a suicide run by my powered up Banshee (who ironically survived after conquest whiffed three of his five attacks plus poor dice rolling against ARM21 thanks to IR but lost both arms and his movement) followed by seven charging sentinels the following turn that took down a conquest in round 4 of the finals. Just to add, I also killed a conquest from full health in round three using Ossyan's feat before hitting it with his gun, Hypnos's gun, 4 Stormfall Archers and five Mage Hunters (and still had Discordia in reserve).

They are certainly not unkillable by any stretch, and if I had taken Kaelyssa with me I would have gone for the backlash assassination strategy instead.

[pritch64]

So I played Hyperion today for the first time in a Rahn list and I have to say that I liked it a lot. I was also playing against Protectorate so it wasn't my best mach up but he really made it better because my opponent had to shoot at Hyperion which meant my Phoenix could use combustion till his hearts content. But so far I be leave that I will play him a LOT. Idk if he will see much play with Rahn but both Vyros(1,2) and Ravyn he will be lots of fun.

[Tainted Coil]

Having read the Collosals book, and seen them played at L&L, I am confident they will become part of standard tournament lists in a way Battle Engines did not. Even at 35pts. They are tough to kill, and with repair models/units behind them durable enough to stay in the fight without losing systems, and the cost is pretty much a wash for two heavies, so it's not like you are spending extra points unless you drop infantry. Two things stand out the most to me though:

1. No move outside activation - this is tremendous for tournament play. You can sit on a flag/zone and the opponent has to kill the Collosal to score/prevent scoring. No more double Angel push animus, slams, throws, etc.

2. Board presence - this is what call the ability to affect a large area of the board. The stormwall is king at this, with Conquest a close second. Still, Hyperion has the ability to affect many models in one activation (5" AOE + 2-6 Handcannon shots). In melee you can sweep everything in 2" (360 with Vyros). This takes care of the problem with our average MAT, average attack jacks - It's often hard to get the most out of them because you are short on focus, especially in cases where you need to boost hits (DEF14 heavies usually). With Hyperion you at least get to attack a ton of models in one activation, even if MAT/RAT is still low.

I'm not overly impressed with Hyperion compared to the other Collosals, but he's not bad. I can easily see taking him in one of my tournament lists. The trick is to come up with some good synergies for him.

[ShepMachine]

I'm a cygnar player, sneaking over here to see how you guys are receiving your colossal. It is good to see positivity here, because in my opinion, the hyperion will have a palpable positive impact on your tourney experience.

I've played 12 games with the stormwall, and my ability to hold center objectives, and even to push across to enemy objectives has shot through the roof. Where I used to 'toe-in' the back edge of my zone, now I'm pushing clear past it and watching opponents make reactions and backward adjustments, rather than just walking towards me no matter what I did. As a fellow shooty warmachine faction, you guys should be thrilled at your new ability to slug it out in the middle.

I keep saying in the cygnar fourms that the most powerful aspect of the stormwall is just the fact that it has 56 boxes, you guys get the equivalent of 64. Also, the 5" aoe is just bigger than the huge base, and so enemy colossals will only get to be repaired once against you before all of their repairmen take a pow 9 (or just get crit consumed). With your easy access to arcanists and ayanna and holt, every single caster you take can have an equivalent ps24. It has been amazing so far

And I really don't think that you guys get too affected by colossals, with the ability to ignore intervening models for LOS with mage hunters and vyros, and with kaelyssa's backlash, I think you guys might be the best there is at winning a game against a colossal without actully killing the colossal. My cryx playing friend has learned that pGoreshade and two harrowers, or eGoreshade and one leviathan give him the best chance of beating my pHaley list, and goreshade is an iosan right?

So I'll be on my way, and I look forward to hearing more exploits from the hyperion.

[Murkhadh]

I thought you could play them fine at 50, I think 35 may be a little more of a challenge, and I think those highlander lists are awesome.

[Gremlingsp]

Right now I am planning on using Hyperion in my 50pt Ravyn list. Basically going to take "the ravyn list" add hyperion and 2 arcanist and drop one Stormfall archer unit.

Its tempting to put him in every list but I really only see that one as one at 50 that I like better with than without.

I know colossals can shoot while engaged and they don't get the +4def. But if some infantry engage it and it shoots them I take it they still get the +4?

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

ShepMachine,

Welcome! I have to keep my Cygnus hidden under my elven cloak around here, but all are welcome to contribute!

I think you're right about colossals not impacting us very much. They're warjacks. Warjacks without any tricks to hide them from us. We kill warjacks. Yeah, I'm thinking we'll be ok.

I'm not so certain that Hyperion will change the way we play, however. Or, at least, not like Stormwall does the Cygnarans. You are spot on regarding Hyperion's #1 strength though: We got boxes. Having a major piece that requires serious effort to kill is, admittedly, new for us. It may become an anchor around which the rest of the army can rage. Buuuuuuut...I tend to think that it'll show up sparingly. Especially in comparison to Stormwall. Stormwall changes Cygnar and for the better, I think. The pods alone redefine lightning war and the high P+S on a tough platform is something Cygnar didn't do so much. Then pair it with the Haleys or Nemo? Yeah...I don't expect to fight Cygnar without seeing one. I doubt the same can be said for Hyperion and the Ret.

But, I'm not bashing on Hyperion. Frankly, I think no colossal does for its faction what Stormwall does for Cygnar. But, I'll withhold judgement for a bit. Need tabletime first. I hope my initial assessment is wrong.

[Lord Sessadore]

I know colossals can shoot while engaged and they don't get the +4def. But if some infantry engage it and it shoots them I take it they still get the +4?

If a colossal is shooting at models that are in melee with itself, it ignores the in-melee penalty. So they basically got an upgraded Gunfighter rule that also lets them shoot out of melee, which is nice.

[Murkhadh]

ShepMachine,

Welcome! I have to keep my Cygnus hidden under my elven cloak around here, but all are welcome to contribute!

I think you're right about colossals not impacting us very much. They're warjacks. Warjacks without any tricks to hide them from us. We kill warjacks. Yeah, I'm thinking we'll be ok.

I'm not so certain that Hyperion will change the way we play, however. Or, at least, not like Stormwall does the Cygnarans. You are spot on regarding Hyperion's #1 strength though: We got boxes. Having a major piece that requires serious effort to kill is, admittedly, new for us. It may become an anchor around which the rest of the army can rage. Buuuuuuut...I tend to think that it'll show up sparingly. Especially in comparison to Stormwall. Stormwall changes Cygnar and for the better, I think. The pods alone redefine lightning war and the high P+S on a tough platform is something Cygnar didn't do so much. Then pair it with the Haleys or Nemo? Yeah...I don't expect to fight Cygnar without seeing one. I doubt the same can be said for Hyperion and the Ret.

But, I'm not bashing on Hyperion. Frankly, I think no colossal does for its faction what Stormwall does for Cygnar. But, I'll withhold judgement for a bit. Need tabletime first. I hope my initial assessment is wrong.

He's like a reverse Eiryss

[Lord Sessadore]

He's like a reverse Eiryss

But now the secret is out!

>.>

<.<

Get 'im!

[Oniwasabi]

As far as fitting Hyperion into Steamroller lists goes, I think there's going to be a couple of primary ways to go about it:

Substitute your 2 heavies for Hyperion! This can be a great option if you were taking 2 heavies at 50 points with Kaelyssa or Ravyn especially, possibly less so with Rahn (he probably wants the extra Phoenix arc node more) or Ossy (cries if you don't give him Hyperion. Whiny bastard) Regular Vyros can work with this as well, particularly since with the feat Hyperion can potentially buy himself a LOT of focus with the amount of little models that will fit within 2" of a huge base, and the potential to walk 7" up into melee and then blissfully blast your opponent's caster another 10" back with the most powerful boostable ranged attack in the game just seems like it could by super happy fun time. eVyros probably prefers quantity over just about everything, and I have no idea with Garryth yet. Still with any caster the idea is about the same, take one super jack instead of 2 heavies.

Cram in more than they can deal with! There are already 35 point lists being discussed in just about every faction going with the double colossal approach. This is because in a tournament setting a lot of people simply will not have the resources needed to break that much armor before said resources can be destroyed. Lets face it, your infantry clearing stuff is probably pretty damn useless against the most fragile colossal at only ARM 19 and 56 boxes, with two of them even if you get one you need to have stuff left to take on the second, and this can be tricky. This probably works best for the Stormwall and the Galleon since the Stormwall can do infantry killing AND infantry denial simultaneously and the Galleon just has a LOT of long range decent pow AoE 3's. It does work with Hyperion too, though I would probably only try it with one of the beat sticky casters, original Vyros and Garryth most likely, or with Ravyn or Ossy to directly increase their ranged output (accuracy and damage respectively) to give them a better shot at ending some of the heavy threats before they even get a chance to attack Hyper twins. If you want to take this tact up to 50 you should probably continue by just putting in more armor, plan the entire list around running something that's going to be really hard to break and play aggressively to eliminate the threats that can break it. Not sure if it will work with Ret yet since I haven't had a chance to try it, but at 35 twinned Conquests, Galleons, and Stormwalls are brutal for "standard" tourney lists to try and deal with. Twinned Judicators might give certain builds genuine nightmares (hello immunity to shooting or magic and actual reliable attack stats thanks to these idiots standing in the back singing!) but have less infantry denial potential to prevent simpler things like simply getting a fistful of Banes/Sents/Doomreavers to the shins until they go down.

Wait for 75! I dislike this approach as it feels a lot like giving up, and to be honest I think at major tournaments even down to the 25 point range people need to prepare to be facing at least one colossal and make sure at least one of your lists is capable of killing a pair from 35 up, or very reliably bypassing them to go for the caster kill.

Personally I'm thinking Kae will be my first Hyperion buddy. That one turn of denying charges is going to be just about the biggest thing ever, combined with the option to either Phantom Hunter of Banishing Ward depending on opponent and I think I will be able to reliable annoy opponents into the mid game with a single Hyperion on the board.

[Tainted Coil]

I agree on Kae as well, and don't forget Witch Hound. Hyperion can't move, but he still get's a free shot.

[FearLord]

I'm actually thinking that some kind of Rahn list might be quite interesting - you've got Polarity Shield for protecting it from charges and Force Blast + Huge Base and the ability to stay exactly where you put it combines for some fairly horrific scenario control...

I may have to work on a list for that...

[Demeritus]

I'm actually thinking that some kind of Rahn list might be quite interesting - you've got Polarity Shield for protecting it from charges and Force Blast + Huge Base and the ability to stay exactly where you put it combines for some fairly horrific scenario control...

I may have to work on a list for that...

I have a plan to do this with an AFG next to it for a large no charge line with longer firepower.

[Gremlingsp]

I'm liking ravyn myself. Yea Kaelyssa would like one but for me I think she'd rather have at least one arc node. Snipe is great on hyperion since not only is his main gun range 14 but the hand cannons become range 16.

[Murkhadh]

I'm liking ravyn myself. Yea Kaelyssa would like one but for me I think she'd rather have at least one arc node. Snipe is great on hyperion since not only is his main gun range 14 but the hand cannons become range 16.

I think most of the ret community thought "snipe" when they saw range 10 gun.

[GunSeraph06]

Dumb question, but if Hyperion had 2 AFGs in B2B aiming, would he get +4 RNG? Its not a named ability, so would it be able to stack?

[Lord Sessadore]

Dumb question, but if Hyperion had 2 AFGs in B2B aiming, would he get +4 RNG? Its not a named ability, so would it be able to stack?

I'm pretty sure "Range Booster" counts as a name for an ability ...

[GunSeraph06]

Ah yeah, my mistake

[Gremlingsp]

Ah yeah, my mistake

Its swift hunter too that put it over the top. Use one strafe gun to get 2" closer, now Starburst at 16" with aim or 21" without. Move 2" away after starburst then another 2 after second strafe. You can also use this to change facing if you need to double strafe a unit in one arc.

Its just too bad not much else works on it with Ravyn though.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Hyperion cannot move outside his normal movement. No Swift Hunter.

[Lord Sessadore]

Its swift hunter too that put it over the top. Use one strafe gun to get 2" closer, now Starburst at 16" with aim or 21" without. Move 2" away after starburst then another 2 after second strafe. You can also use this to change facing if you need to double strafe a unit in one arc.

Its just too bad not much else works on it with Ravyn though.

Er ... you know that swift hunter won't work on Hyperion, right? Colossals cannot be placed and cannot move outside of their normal movement.

Edit: same thing goes for Locomotion, Admonition, Witch Hunter, Telekinesis, Whip Snap, and Madelyn's ability, for the record.

[Murkhadh]

Er ... you know that swift hunter won't work on Hyperion, right? Colossals cannot be placed and cannot move outside of their normal movement.

Which makes Ravyn's locomotion Spell sad.

[Gremlingsp]

Thought it was normal activation for movement. Should have figured that.