Berserk & Take?up

[BryanC]

I had an interesting rules interaction in my last night?s game. My opponent argued that take-up breaks my berserk chain, and that if I destroyed a model that had take-up, I would not get the extra attack generated by destroying said model.


"Take Up - If this model is destroyed or removed from play, you can choose a Grunt in this unit within 1˝ of this model to take its place. Effects on this model expire, and it gains the effects on the chosen Grunt. Remove the Grunt from the table instead of this model. This model has the same number of unmarked damage boxes as the chosen Grunt."

?Berserk ? When this model destroys one or more models with a melee attach during its combat action, immediately after the attack is resolved it must make one additional melee attach against another models in its melee range?


My understanding is the following steps would occur:

1. You get to the destroyed step for the model with Take Up.
2. At this point, Take up & Berserk requirements are satisfied,
3. Take Up would trigger as it happens at the point of the model being destroyed.
4. After take-up is resolved the actions would be combat over and effect of berserk would trigger.


My opponent argued that since the model that was destroyed was his choosing instead of mine, my berserk attack technically did not destroy a model. My argument is that both of these abilities trigger on the model hit in combat being destroyed,( I.E if that model was not destroyed take-up would not trigger) thus both abilities requirements are met, so take-up and the additional attack generated by Berserk will occur.

Any direction?

[Bishop84]

Take up does not change the fact that a model was still destroyed by your attack. It simply changes which model is removed.

Note the difference in wording between Take Up and Self Sacrifice. Self Sacrifice says you chose another model to be destroyed instead and the original model is no longer disabled.

[spasheridan]

SO, here's what happens:

1) Berserk Model boxes the caber
2) Caber triggers his destroyed effect - if I will be destroyed, before I am destroyed destroy the grunt. I am not destroyed.
3) Berserk model wants another attack, but it triggers when the berserk model destroys a model with a melee attack. THe model that was attacked is still inplay, the model that was destroyed was destroyed by the caber. There is nothing to trigger berserk, berserk fails

[BryanC]

Yes, but both Take-up & Berserk trigger on destroyed. If the caber thrower was not destroyed, take up would not have been triggered.

[spasheridan]

They happen in a sequence, not simul. Take up cancels the destroyed effect before berserk kicks in.

[BryanC]

They happen in a sequence, not simul. Take up cancels the destroyed effect before berserk kicks in.

why would take-up occur before the berserk condition is met?

Mind you i am still not sold on the idea that the model does not count as destroys, i am just wondering your logic as to why the take up condition is met first.

[spasheridan]

Berserk – When this model destroys one or more models with a melee attach during its combat action, immediately after the attack is resolved it must make one additional melee attach against another models in its melee range
Triggers after the entire attack is resolved.

Take Up - If this model is destroyed or removed from play, you can choose a Grunt in this unit within 1˝ of this model to take its place. Effects on this model expire, and it gains the effects on the chosen Grunt. Remove the Grunt from the table instead of this model. This model has the same number of unmarked damage boxes as the chosen Grunt
Triggers when the model is destroyed, before the attack is finished.

THere's a chart at the back of Prime that tells you when these times occur, I think that destroyed effects are event 11 and attack is finished at 12.

[BryanC]

here is my problem with this logic

Take Up - If this model is destroyed

Berserk – When this model destroys


In order to use the take-up ability the model must reach the destroyed state. By reaching the destroyed state you fulfill the berserk per-condition.

Granted the ability effect does not trigger until later in the order of operations, but this is non-material as the precondition was already met.

[Kommissar Golovko]

The way I understand Take Up is that the original target model was destroyed right? Just that a "new" model took its place? If so Berserk is satisfied and it can still go on attacking.

BryanC: it's not a question of whether a model reached the destroyed stage, rather how the model was destroyed. There are effects like Self Sacrifice which let's the target model live but still destroyed/removed a model. In that case, the original model is not destroyed so Berserk doesn't trigger since the removed model was because of Self Sacrifice rather than Berserk.

[Saraminss]

The way I see it the model would get berserk, but it would not be able to attack the caber again as as it says "against another model"...

Edit to add: the caber was destroyed... It is simply that a grunt took it's place and was removed instead

[Kommissar Golovko]

I think it should work since the Caber is in effect another model who took the original Caber's place.

[Crate123]

I think it should work since the Caber is in effect another model who took the original Caber's place.

Well the tactical tip says:
"...Remember that if this model remains in play as a result of Take Up it is the same model".

[Del Fuego]

BryanC: it's not a question of whether a model reached the destroyed stage, rather how the model was destroyed. There are effects like Self Sacrifice which let's the target model live but still destroyed/removed a model. In that case, the original model is not destroyed so Berserk doesn't trigger since the removed model was because of Self Sacrifice rather than Berserk.

Self Sacrafice is not an apt example as it triggers on disabled and never reaches destroyed.

This all comes down to whether or not the model triggering Take Up is considered to have been destroyed by an enemy attack. If so, then the trigger for Berserk remains affirmed. If not, Berserk is no longer meeting trigger requirements and thus cannot resolve.

[PG_Cloud-Gatherer]

here is my problem with this logic

Take Up - If this model is destroyed

Berserk – When this model destroys


In order to use the take-up ability the model must reach the destroyed state. By reaching the destroyed state you fulfill the berserk per-condition.

Granted the ability effect does not trigger until later in the order of operations, but this is non-material as the precondition was already met.

But you re-check conditions as abilities resolve, so that by the time you get to resolving Berserk, the model was not destroyed. A different model was destroyed - by Take Up, not by the attack.

[BryanC]

This all comes down to whether or not the model triggering Take Up is considered to have been destroyed by an enemy attack. If so, then the trigger for Berserk remains affirmed. If not, Berserk is no longer meeting trigger requirements and thus cannot resolve.

This..
And my argument is that since the precondition of take up is that the model is destroyed "If this model is destroyed or removed from play", that they indeed count as being destroyed.

I don't think that when Berserk resolves i need to recheck its condition as the condition was previously met. The requirements for berserk don't mandate that the models need to be destroyed after its action, rather that models are destroyed during its combat action.

At least that's my perception.

[solkan]

But you re-check conditions as abilities resolve, so that by the time you get to resolving Berserk, the model was not destroyed. A different model was destroyed - by Take Up, not by the attack.

No, that's not right. Take up does not say that the other model is destroyed. Take up says:

Remove the Grunt from the table instead of this model.

That has to be a reference to the normal sequence of events where if a model gets destroyed and remains destroyed, you remove it after it has exhausted all of its chances to avoid destruction.

According to Take Up, the model goes through destroyed and then gets reset after it was destroyed.

I'm going to link to the related thread on Take Up vs. Snap Fire because it hinges on the same issue:
The way it's written, Take Up causes the model to go completely through destroyed, and then causes some other model to get removed and causes the destroyed model to "get better". In other words, the model with Take Up lives through being destroyed.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1457002

[CountDomar]

My understanding of "Take-Up" was that you choose an eligible model within 1" of the destroyed model and they take-up the standard/rocket/etc. To me this means that you will take the standard/rocket/etc. figure and replace the model which is taking it up at it's current location (not the location of the original model). The act of physically replacing the model is so you will still have a model on the table which accurately reflects that they now how the device that was taken up.

[Crate123]

My understanding of "Take-Up" was that you choose an eligible model within 1" of the destroyed model and they take-up the standard/rocket/etc. To me this means that you will take the standard/rocket/etc. figure and replace the model which is taking it up at it's current location (not the location of the original model). The act of physically replacing the model is so you will still have a model on the table which accurately reflects that they now how the device that was taken up.

Thats not how it works, the model with Take Up is not moved and remains the same model although it also destroyed as well which is where the headache is.

[spasheridan]

CountDomar - that's how standards work, it's much like field promotion. Take Up has it's own rule.

[CountDomar]

Take Up: If this model is destroyed or removed from play, you can choose a Grunt in this unit within 1" to take its place. Effects on this model expire, and it gains the effects on the chosen Grunt. Remove the Grunt from the table instead of this model. This model has the same number of unmarked boxes as the chosen Grunt.

Standard Bearer: When the Standard Bearer is destroyed or removed from play, you can choose a Grunt in this unit within 1" of it to take its place and become the new Standard Bearer. Replace the Grunt model with the Standard Bearer model. Effects on the destroyed or removed Standard Bearer expire. Effects on the replaced Grunt are applied to the new Standard Bearer. The new Standard Bearer has the same number of unmarked damage boxes remaining as the Grunt it replaced.

Hmmmm, after reading both of these I could swear that, minus the wording of how and what model is replaced, they are both saying basically the same thing. The orginal model is destroyed and the model taking up the standard or other device (i.e. rocket launcher) is a different model all together. This would tell me that even if you go with the wording under "Take Up" and just remove the other Grunt model, leaving the original model in it's original location, the original model was in fact destroyed, thus triggering the Berserk effect. I would also go further and say that this model would now be subject to the berserk attack even if he was originally outside of the melee range of the berserking model as it would now clearly be in range.

[Crate123]

Take Up: If this model is destroyed or removed from play, you can choose a Grunt in this unit within 1" to take its place. Effects on this model expire, and it gains the effects on the chosen Grunt. Remove the Grunt from the table instead of this model. This model has the same number of unmarked boxes as the chosen Grunt.

Standard Bearer: When the Standard Bearer is destroyed or removed from play, you can choose a Grunt in this unit within 1" of it to take its place and become the new Standard Bearer. Replace the Grunt model with the Standard Bearer model. Effects on the destroyed or removed Standard Bearer expire. Effects on the replaced Grunt are applied to the new Standard Bearer. The new Standard Bearer has the same number of unmarked damage boxes remaining as the Grunt it replaced.

Hmmmm, after reading both of these I could swear that, minus the wording of how and what model is replaced, they are both saying basically the same thing. The orginal model is destroyed and the model taking up the standard or other device (i.e. rocket launcher) is a different model all together. This would tell me that even if you go with the wording under "Take Up" and just remove the other Grunt model, leaving the original model in it's original location, the original model was in fact destroyed, thus triggering the Berserk effect. I would also go further and say that this model would now be subject to the berserk attack even if he was originally outside of the melee range of the berserking model as it would now clearly be in range.

Not according to the tactical tip.
Yes the model is destroyed however the model standing after the attack is resolved is still the same model. Its a bit weird.

[CountDomar]

I have never seen any tactical tip about "Take Up". Where is this located so I can look at it? I only have access to the MKII rulebook, the Khador book and the Khador cards.

I would only agree that the model still standing is the same model in the sense that you are using the same model to represent the fact that the model in question is carrying the item taken up. Since the rules for both Take Up and Standard Bearer clearly state the original model is destroyed and the new model has the effects and unmarked damage boxes of the model taking up the item I would argue that it is not the same model.

[Crate123]

I have never seen any tactical tip about "Take Up". Where is this located so I can look at it? I only have access to the MKII rulebook, the Khador book and the Khador cards.

I would only agree that the model still standing is the same model in the sense that you are using the same model to represent the fact that the model in question is carrying the item taken up. Since the rules for both Take Up and Standard Bearer clearly state the original model is destroyed and the new model has the effects and unmarked damage boxes of the model taking up the item I would argue that it is not the same model.

Check the tactical tip for winter guard infantry rocketeer.
It clearly says that its the same model.

[Kommissar Golovko]

Yup that's what I am reading too. The part about "Effects on this model expire, and it gains the effects on the chosen Grunt. Remove the Grunt from the table instead of this model. This model has the same number of unmarked boxes as the chosen Grunts" leads me to believe the original model and the one that took its place are not the same model even though they both are using the same model to represent it.

[Crate123]

Yup that's what I am reading too. The part about "Effects on this model expire, and it gains the effects on the chosen Grunt. Remove the Grunt from the table instead of this model. This model has the same number of unmarked boxes as the chosen Grunts" leads me to believe the original model and the one that took its place are not the same model even though they both are using the same model to represent it.

Not the rules text, the tactical tip:
"Effects include spells and animi. Remember that if this model remains in play as a result of Take Up it is the same model"
Cant really read that any other way.

[Kommissar Golovko]

I meant that's what I am reading from the rules text and not the tactical tip.

[Crate123]

I meant that's what I am reading from the rules text and not the tactical tip.

Yes and then you read the tactical tip and it reminds you that it is still the same model.

[CountDomar]

Ok, got the tactical tip. However I think you are miss reading it. This tactical tip is telling you that if there are any effects on the model that is taking up the item they will stay with it even after it takes up the item. If it was referring to effects on the destroyed model staying on the new model it would not say effects expire. I really think we need an official word on this as this seems to be really misunderstood (either by my way of looking at it or by your way). Either way, it would be good to get an official ruling.

[Crate123]

How can you read it that way ?
The tactical tip is for the model with Take Up, not the model that picks it up.

"Remember if this model (the model with Take Up) remains in play as a result of Take up it is the same model"
The model picking it up is not remaining in play as a result of Take Up, it actually leaves play because of it.

[Yzor]

Take Up - If this model is destroyed or removed from play, you can choose a Grunt in this unit within 1˝ of this model to take its place. Effects on this model expire, and it gains the effects on the chosen Grunt. Remove the Grunt from the table instead of this model. This model has the same number of unmarked damage boxes as the chosen Grunt

The only way for Take Up to trigger is if a model is destroyed or removed from play. If a frenzied attacker destroys a model with Take Up it gets the extra attack.

"Effects include spells and animi. Remember that if this model remains in play as a result of Take Up it is the same model"

Since Frenzy only allows you to attack another (different) model you'd have to attack a different model with it.

Of course if you kill a second model with Frenzy and it triggers again can you go back to the first one since it is a different model than the second one that you just killed lol?

[CountDomar]

As Yzor stated, Take Up only activates if the model with Take Up is destroyed or removed from play. That being said that model could not still be in play.

The tactical tip must be refering to any spells/animi that might be on the model that is taking up the item. It is reminding you that that model is not being removed from play so the spells/animi would still remain with the model even after the actual (physical) models are swapped.

[quindraco]

As Yzor stated, Take Up only activates if the model with Take Up is destroyed or removed from play. That being said that model could not still be in play.

The tactical tip must be refering to any spells/animi that might be on the model that is taking up the item. It is reminding you that that model is not being removed from play so the spells/animi would still remain with the model even after the actual (physical) models are swapped.

Tactical tips are themselves rules and are canonical; despite what your intuition might tell you, what a tactical tip says is by definition correct. If the tip says the model is still in play, then the model is still in play, period, for all effects that care if the model is still in play.

Winter Guard Rocketeer Take Up is fairly exotic - it's NOT how Standard Bearers work, since the Bearer rule replaces a Grunt with a new Bearer, but the Rocketeer rule kills off a nearby Grunt and leaves the Rocketeer in place. They are fundamentally not the same rule. It's important to remember that, since you can't look to anything to do with standard bearers to set precedent.

Take Up happens at stage 11.5 of the attack main sequence, but Berserk happens at 12.d - Take Up clearly happens first. As clarified on page 236 of Primal, you always recheck trigger conditions of abilities when it comes time to resolve them. Take Up occurs at 11.5; by the time 12.d is reached, it is no longer true that the attack destroyed a model - indeed, the model purportedly destroyed is very much still on the table and not even boxed. Berserk's trigger condition is no longer met, and so does not trigger, and is not resolved.

[solkan]

Take Up happens at stage 11.5 of the attack main sequence, but Berserk happens at 12.d - Take Up clearly happens first. As clarified on page 236 of Primal, you always recheck trigger conditions of abilities when it comes time to resolve them. Take Up occurs at 11.5; by the time 12.d is reached, it is no longer true that the attack destroyed a model - indeed, the model purportedly destroyed is very much still on the table and not even boxed. Berserk's trigger condition is no longer met, and so does not trigger, and is not resolved.

Take up occurs at step 11.6 because that's the step that its rules directly reference.

11.6 Remove the destroyed model from the table, then return to the main sequence.

vs.

Remove the grunt from the table instead of this model.

You have to get to step 11.6 irreversibly in order to remove the model from the table, at which point Take Up tells you to take the other model off instead of the one that got destroyed.

[Yzor]

If 11.5 is reached then isn't the destroyed criteria for *beserk still met? It just seems there is a weird interaction where the model is destroyed but still remains on the table.

[Sheer_Falacy]

It seems like it shouldn't matter that the model isn't destroyed anymore after the attack. No matter what, the model isn't destroyed anymore after the attack - if it actually dies, it's removed from the table, and therefore no longer destroyed. The important thing is that it destroyed a model, so it gets an additional attack.

[Gamingdevil]

The important thing is that it destroyed a model, so it gets an additional attack.

This. The model was still destroyed, just the very last step of destroyed (removing the model from the table) is substituted by removing a different model, nothing changes the fact that the original model was destroyed.
I'm not sure if you could attack it again though, seeing as the tactical tip says it's the same model and Berserk specifies to attack another model.

@Yzor: it's really confusing when you call "Berserk" "Frenzy", seeing as Frenzy is a different rule altogether.

[Crate123]

Its just really weird but yeah we have a situation where a model is destroyed however it still remains on the table and it is in fact the same model so in our case (berserk) you get another attack but you can not use it to attack the Take Up model however as berserk requires you to attack another ​model.
Its super weird.

[BryanC]

Any chance we can get an infernal ruling on this item. It seems to come down to the simple question of whether or not a model counts as destroyed as part of the attack, if it uses take-up.

Mind you this has ramifications for snap fire as well as berserk. Furthermore it has ramifications for any ability that requires a model to be destroyed as part of their attack.

[jdeckert]

Given the wording on take up, it seems to me that the model is considered "destroyed" by the attack. Therefore berserk would trigger, since the attack "destroyed" a model. This would be despite the fact that the model is not considered "destroyed" at the end of the attack. Destroyed the past tense verb rather than the adjective, like "knocked down" the effect versus "knocked down" the status. But I can see it going the other way, too....

[BryanC]

Is there any chance we can get an offical ruling on this item. There still seems to be a bit of a difference in interpritation of the rules.