Berserk & Take?up

[silenti79]

I would love to see the clarification on this as well.

[Bobby1213]

I am not seeing how this is unclear. The model with take up needs to be destroyed for that to trigger, so berserk would trigger also. Just because you swap models doesn't mean the first wasn't destroyed. Look at it this way, Caber thrower gets killed by doom reaver, his buddy sees him die and picks up the caber. Doesn't mean the caber thrower didn't die. So technically it is another model that you are attacking, the model with take up gains the new models effects.
Also just because it is the same physical model, it doesn't mean it is the same model for game purposes, hence the example above. That would be a totally different person to attack.

[Kenton]

The issue here is with the way in which the game designers' chose to resolve take up. It seems clear from the rule stated above that the original target is destroyed as any and all spell/condition effects from the "taking up" model are transferred to the caber tosser/standard when take up is resolved.

Were the caber tosser model removed and then used to replace another model within 1" when resolving the take up rule this issue would be far easier to resolve, as this is, in effect, what has taken place.

But I'm now speculating about intent and should shut up.

Irrespective of intent you cannot alter the fact that the initial target was destroyed. Thus beserk was triggered. The model is not the initial target as it has the spell/condition effects from the chosen Grunt on it.

[Crate123]

The issue here is with the way in which the game designers' chose to resolve take up. It seems clear from the rule stated above that the original target is destroyed as any and all spell/condition effects from the "taking up" model are transferred to the caber tosser/standard when take up is resolved.

Were the caber tosser model removed and then used to replace another model within 1" when resolving the take up rule this issue would be far easier to resolve, as this is, in effect, what has taken place.

But I'm now speculating about intent and should shut up.

Irrespective of intent you cannot alter the fact that the initial target was destroyed. Thus beserk was triggered. The model is not the initial target as it has the spell/condition effects from the chosen Grunt on it.

So why does the tactical tip tell us this "Take Up - Effects include spells and animi. Remember that if this model remains in play as a result of Take Up it is the same model" ?
Its very clear that its the same model, it might have been destroyed but its still the same model.

[Kenton]

So why does the tactical tip tell us this "Take Up - Effects include spells and animi. Remember that if this model remains in play as a result of Take Up it is the same model" ?
Its very clear that its the same model, it might have been destroyed but its still the same model.

I have no sensible answer to that sensible question.

If it is the same model then why is it suddenly affected by the spells and continuous effects that previously affected the chosen grunt? Answer = Because the rule says that it is so.

It's at times like this I want to say rude things to the folks that hold these rules up as a shining beacon of clarity and perfection.

[PG_thegreatblah]

I think the reading of the tactical tip is in reference to the model's abilities. The Kriel Warrior steps into the now destroyed caber tosser's spot via 'takeup' and becomes the caber tosser. He is no longer a Kriel Warrior Grunt he is now a Caber Tosser. So even though the previous caber tosser was destroyed, the new model is now the same model it was before (ruleswise).

Caber Tosser with Corrosion on it gets destroyed. All effects on him expire, because he is gone.
Kriel Grunt within 1" of him that has 'Acidic Touch' on it steps into the Caber Tosser's Spot via 'Takeup'
Kriel Grunt now becomes the Caber Tosser making it 'the same model that was there before' (making the tactical tip make sense) even though it is a different body.
New Caber Tosser does not have corrosion because that model was destroyed, but keeps acidic touch because that is what was on it before he moved into the new spot.

[solkan]

Among other things, it if wasn't the same model you'd get the joy of "That model with Take Up has a once-per-game ability. I'm going to kill it so his replacement can use it again."

You get a paragraph of rules about transferring effects and scrubbing effects in order to implement "Model X takes Model Y's place" while trying to avoid that.

[Macallan]

In short Take Up does not prevent Berserk.