Does MtK Justify His Support?

[sourclams]

I keep seeing this in threads, or something that amounts to this: "MtK's stats are going to be +2-4 better because you have to factor in support that troll players take anyways".

This bothers me for a number of reasons, which I'll go into, but I want to hear other trollbloods' players opinions on the matter.

"Don't spend points to make something bad less bad, spend them to make something good more good". This is a maxim of competitive list building in ... basically every game, ever played by me. In the list-building stage, you need to decide if MtK is going to max offense, max defense, or play middle-road. Max offense is Mtk+Mauler+KSB+UA for 33 pts. This isn't too prohibitive a cost, but it does leave MtK vulnerable to getting 1-rounded. Troll players also have to ask themselves that if they're running this way, whether MtK offers significantly more to the list than Mulg. I actually think this is the most efficient way to run him, feel free to disagree.

Middle-road can basically be KSB+UA+Slag/Pyre+Janissa; not capitalizing on transmute but having limited base protection with the wall vs non-reach infantry and P&S22/ARM21.

Max defense is far more intensive: MtK + Janissa + EBDT + KSB+UA + whelps/thrullg is ballpark 40 points. This has to be your 'Janissa' list, and quite frankly there's only enough points left for Fenns+UA and Slag/Pyre for a damage buff. This is the issue I have with people saying 'you're going to take that support anyways': #1, no we're generally not. KSB is not in every troll list, Janissa/whelps are definitely not in every trolls list, and when they are in a list they tend to benefit 2-3 beasts and 2+ units; the cost is diluted by applying to a wider array of models. IMO this list actually offers less to MtK for defense because your screen has no back-up so you're either overextending yourself, leaving MtK behind, or more probably absorbing the charge and playing reactively. pDoomy can do this pretty well, but at this point we stop playing to Trollbloods' strengths and start playing to prop up Mountain King.

The final issue is how MtK generally forces beast brick warlocks to 'give up' something good if they want to utilize him. Everyone will give up at least 1 animus just by having MtK in a list, but Borka, pMaddy, p/eDoomy will also all lose some of their utility via feats and goad. They'll gain some too with a giant immovable base, but that much force concentration also has minuses (like inability to scrub upkeeps vs Crippling Grasp/Parasite on MtK).

Those are my initial thoughts, and ultimately it's going to be the tabletop that decides where this thing lies on the Animanatrax-Molik Karn spectrum. I am interested if you think there's more lipstick on this pig.

[PG_Celedor]

I'm going to run my Mountain King screened by two War Wagons. He's just going to latch on to one with each meaty fist and ride 'em right into my opponents lines.

I'm not sure at this point MtK tactical discussions have much new to offer. I started reading your post, then skimming, and finally glancing.

At this point in time, the bottom line for me is that he looks awesome, he'll add a new dimension of game-play through his unique rules and abilities, and he offers the same unique and fun challenges to building a list full of win-potential and synergy as anything else (albeit a large piece o' pie he is).

[alchahest]

would you NOT take the support with any other model?

[Aya]

Or you know, you could play for fun and not always play competitively 24/7.

That and most of the time there will be at least one of those support pieces in your list. Anyone of them is going to help you keep your MK around a little bit longer. That and having actually played with the model (a crazy concept I'm sure) I can that unless someone throws most of their army at him they will not be killing the MK in one turn. The only time I saw him go down quickly was against pDenny and her feat + parasite + Banes. Which, lets be honest, will kill anything in the game and could of (mostly) been negated if I had dropped a rock wall somewhere to negate half the charges from his Banes.

[PG_Celedor]

Or you know, you could play for fun and not always play competitively 24/7.

I think this can be easy to loose sight of when digesting a bunch of new rules and abilities from a model we can't even play yet.

It's reminds me of WoW. I remember when people just went to do dungeons and raids for fun (yes, and phat loots). But when it got to the point of "Hey, you need X for your raid, inv please!" ......... "What's your GS?" ... it kinda takes the fun and imagination out of the game.

In the end, he's going to be fun to paint and play, there can be no doubt of that! ...at least for some of us

[Dr. Ewww]

I'm going to run my Mountain King screened by two War Wagons. He's just going to latch on to one with each meaty fist and ride 'em right into my opponents lines.
.

You should put some giant skiis on his base and hitch a rope with handle between each meaty fist and a War Wagon.

[cryptomancer]

Or you know, you could play for fun and not always play competitively 24/7.

Hmm... looks like an argument but reads like a cop-out. Fascinating. Tell me more...

-crypto

[PG_LunarSol]

Hmm... looks like an argument but reads like a cop-out. Fascinating. Tell me more...

-crypto

Honestly, MK is the first model in a while that I've seen that can legitimately discern the two. A lot of the time, the "play for fun" argument gets thrown at things that are neither good nor fun. Take Assault Kommandos. They're bad, but they don't do anything that fun either. They're not doing anything particularly exciting, they just have a pretty low level of performance.

For me, the "play for fun" argument, means taking something that has a chance of something really bizarre happening that makes for an entertaining game win or lose. There's not a ton of these models in the game sadly. Butcher2 is one of the standouts with his berserk whirlwind thing and I think MK can fit in that category as well. At the very least, he's going to get one rounded and leave a pile of whelps running all over the place making the rest of the game more chaotic than it would be otherwise. Is that worth 20 points? Probably not (you could probably do it just buying the whelps), but its got a lot of potential to be funny, which means it might actually be worth "playing for fun".

[PG_Celedor]

Hmm... looks like an argument but reads like a cop-out.more...

-crypto

In any game people can play for fun, to compete, to extremes and somewhere in between the two.

[Cannibalbob]

For me, the "play for fun" argument, means taking something that has a chance of something really bizarre happening that makes for an entertaining game win or lose. There's not a ton of these models in the game sadly. Butcher2 is one of the standouts with his berserk whirlwind thing and I think MK can fit in that category as well. At the very least, he's going to get one rounded and leave a pile of whelps running all over the place making the rest of the game more chaotic than it would be otherwise. Is that worth 20 points? Probably not (you could probably do it just buying the whelps), but its got a lot of potential to be funny, which means it might actually be worth "playing for fun".

I agree with that assessment. I would be ok with that being the case for maybe a caster, small unit, or a solo, but the issue with the Mountain King is the cost. He costs a huge amount both in terms of money and game points. I feel that sort of model is a bad candidate for "play just for fun". His model is awesome (although it irks me that he is in the same pose as half of the dire trolls...), but I have a hard time justifying paying that much for something that probably will rarely see table time. I could buy a chunk of a new force for that much - and I could buy a whole force for other games for that cost. Or there are expensive models in other games that I could probably use more often.

I don't think he is outright terrible, but he is overall a bit meh. For that many points I want something that works well in a vacuum and does not require much support. Considering that he amounts to a huge chunk of your list I feel he should work better straight out of the box.

I already have enough stuff for this game that I have a hard time playing with a lot of it. I have recently been considering selling a chunk of my collection for that reason. Another expensive piece that occasionally gets used is not the sort of addition I was hoping for.

[cryptomancer]

In any game people can play for fun, to compete, to extremes and somewhere in between the two.

Absolutely. I missed the part where I said otherwise.

-crypto

[PG_Celedor]

Absolutely. I missed the part where I said otherwise.

-crypto

When someone says play for fun. And you respond cop-out.

Edit: Though I suppose you're not denying the existence of such a spectrum of player motivation. My point in listing them was implicit. They are valid motivations, and players would do well to avoid dismissing each others motivations as cop outs.

[cryptomancer]

When someone says play for fun. And you respond cop-out.

Edit: Though I suppose you're not denying the existence of such a spectrum of player motivation. My point in listing them was implicit. They are valid motivations, and players would do well to avoid dismissing each others motivations as cop outs.

It's not an argument, though. It's a dodge. Which, you may notice, was my original point.

If someone says, "this thing is terrible" and someone else responds with, effectively, "I don't care", what else should I call it?

-crypto

[jdripley]

I wonder if it'll be best not to focus over-much on buffing the Mountain King? In my mind the only real shortfalling on this guy is his MAT. I truly wish he had +1 MAT, maybe maybe +2 MAT. He is 20 points after all, is it too much to ask for him to hit reliably?

At any rate, you really don't need to buff his P+S. It's high enough already. He's rolling straight damage or dice + something against most targets in the game. Khador heavies disagree of course. A solid argument can be made for the Krielstone since there's a night and day difference between an ARM lower than 20 and one higher than 20. The Krielstone is actually at its best when buffing an already high ARM. We have very few ways to buff a warbeast's MAT - Grim in a backwards way, and pMadrak.

So maybe the approach should be just to give him some Whelps to play with, and focus on making the rest of your list include other viable threats? How about something like:
pMadrak
--Mountain King
--Earthborn
Max Kriel Warriors
--2 Cabers
Whelps

EB cannot be ignored and gets just as much buffing out of pMadrak as the Mountain King does for the exact same fury investment. The Kriel Warriors will enjoy the huge Surefoot Aura that you put on the Mountain King (you did put that on the Mountain King, right?? right???), especially since you don't have points left over for the standard. Whelps will help EB just as much as the Mountain King. And we all know that Cabers play nicely with the Earthborn, and they're downright good in their own right just by themselves, never mind with Crusher going on.

This as opposed to an army that coddles the Mountain King by spending all of the remaining points on supporting models - getting your Krielstone and Elder in there, getting Janissa for the aura, etc. You've spend exactly 22 points on the Mountain King and support for it. Everything else is dedicated to fighting the enemy instead of helping the Mountain King fight the enemy.

[gaminguy]

That's been my philosophy on the Animantarax in the games that I've had any success with it.

[cryptomancer]

I think he really does need an Axer. That said, if I'm taking melee Heavies, I tend to bring one anyways.

Likewise the KSB+UA. I let these guys languish for a while because I valued speed and numbers over durability (Fenns, Dygmies) and the ever-popular Impaler/Bomber combo. Plus, Warlocks like Calandra and Grim really can't fuel the Stone as much as I'd like. But playing Champs again has gotten me to love the KSB again.

That's ten points of support that will also support other stuff. A Mauler or an Earthborn will still benefit from the KSB or Rush. Likewise Mulg. But we've got enough options in our toolkit now that, if one should want to run a melee-centrinc Warbeast list, we can support it fairly efficiently.

-crypto

[PG_Celedor]

It's not an argument, though. It's a dodge. Which, you may notice, was my original point.

If someone says, "this thing is terrible" and someone else responds with, effectively, "I don't care", what else should I call it?

-crypto

When somebody says they will play the model for fun, regardless of it's tactical or other proposed shortcomings, they are not saying they don't care. They're saying they care about something different. Just because they judge the models based on different criteria, doesn't make their juddgements any less valid. If we based our collecting and gaming hobby exclusively on minimum tactical potential benchmarks... It wouldn't be fun for some people. Though, clearly that is your preference and any non-technical-evaluative response is a cop out.


Edit: look, it's going to be fun throwing down with the MtK. Is there disparity between his abilities and his point cost? Sure, for the sake of argument. But does that mean you can't imagine fielding him and having fun despite it all? I know I will

[PG_joedj]

I see my MK walking 5-7" inches forward spraying with five boosted attacks 10" upfield, spray damage is unlikely to be boosted
(already high!) unless going after a 'jack/'beast, multi-wound heavy infantry/cavalry. Gunny will be happy to assist with Guided Fire (and a wall for the possible ARM/EBDT bonus).

His ARM will increase via KSB auto-include. My KSB needs far less Fury because it's trailing 0.5" behind the MK, and there ain't gonna be much more for the KSB to buff due to the MK's points.

MK will hate models with Grievous Wounds.

MK will spawn free whelps in forward positions to create small pockets of blocked charge lanes.

When engaged by multiple infantry, Amuck plus any Warlock is a fair MAT buff for the Mountain King.
When engaged by an Angelius or the like, MAT 5 is an incredibly frustrating demotion, that will limit his play for me to only with Warlocks with direct MAT buffs/DEF debuffs:
Grim: Feat/Marked for Death
pGrissel: Calamity
pDoomie: Fortune (sort of...)
eDoomie: Wild Aggression (of course!)
pMadrak: Carnage

Alas, this makes MK less optimal for me, for more than half of current Warlocks.
But whenever I do field one of the above, I'll be looking to field the MK!

[cryptomancer]

When somebody says they will play the model for fun, regardless of it's tactical or other proposed shortcomings, they are not saying they don't care. They're saying they care about something different. Just because they judge the models based on different criteria, doesn't make their juddgements any less valid. If we based our collecting and gaming hobby exclusively on minimum tactical potential benchmarks... It wouldn't be fun for some people. Though, clearly that is your preference and any non-technical-evaluative response is a cop out.


Edit: look, it's going to be fun throwing down with the MtK. Is there disparity between his abilities and his point cost? Sure, for the sake of argument. But does that mean you can't imagine fielding him and having fun despite it all? I know I will

sigh.

Celedor, the thread is titled "Does the MtK Justify His Support?", yes? Therefore, a relevant argument is "yes, he does justify his support because X" or "no, he doesn't justify his support because Y". Am I wrong?

Saying "it's fun" is beside the point. Is it invalid? No. But that's not what we're talking about, is it. It's not actually an argument. It's changing the subject.

But perhaps it's up to me to drop it, since you don't seem to be interested in the argument, nor does Aya. By all means, have fun! But don't expect me to pretend that you saying so is adding to the discussion at hand.

*deep breath*

Getting back to the subject of the thread (*meaningful glance*)...

First off, there are a few Feats that will support the King quite effectively at no additional cost. eDoomy has the most obvious one, as the SPD boost is a big deal for a SPD:5 model with Reach and high-POW attacks. The added advantage with eDoomy of course is the Alpha Strike capacity for the King, meaning survivability support (KSB, Janissa, Earthborn, extra Whelps) will be less essential. A 35 point list with eDoomshaper, the King, and an Axer and 15 poins of troopers and solos is a pretty mean build. Wild Aggression handles the accuracy issue (and it's a big issue), P+S:19 with 5 Fury and a free charge is enough to kill most Heavies, and the threat ranges are pretty extreme (15" I believe). I know it's silly to run a Gargantuan at 35, but it's a nice core to build from.

Really, the real disadvantage with a Colossal/Gargantuan in an Alpha-Strike role is positioning. Their base size means terrain can become a serious obstacle to how they're used. Linear Obstacles especially can make entire areas effectively impassable for these behemoths, and when you consider the increasing number of folks that can summon Stone Walls it's an issue worth exploring. Area terrain will be fine for the most part, as the King comes with Pathfinder built-in, and his enormous base means he'll sometimes be able to simply draw LOS around whatever forest or building or rock the enemy attempts to hide behind.

Second, I think we have to be careful how we're going to support the King. We need to be specific. 20 points is too much to just ignore when list-building, so we should include something to help him. There seem to be three ways to support him to my mind: SPEED, ACCURACY, and DURABILITY. Arguably, POWER is another problem area, but since P+S:19 is pretty damn impressive anyways, I doubt this will come up often. SPEED is easy to spot: Bait the Line, Borka's Feat, eDoomy's Feat, Befuddle, Quicken. ACCURACY is a bit more convoluted: Grim's Feat and Marked for Death spell, Calandra's Feat and Fate Blessed ability, Wild Aggression, Amuck (which of course comes built-in), Carnage, Fortune, and of course any Knockdown. DURABILITY has been covered extensively, because the King's fragility is pretty glaring: KSB, Janissa, Earthborn, extra Whelps, arguably DEF-boosters like Iron Flesh or Surefoot or Bullet Dodger, though there are soooo many better targets for Iron Flesh and Bullet Dodger. Hell, even Unyielding from eGrissel's Feat is a DURABILITY buff.

A brief word on POWER: damage buffs are no stranger to our faction. I don't know that the King really needs them, but hell, if you're taking the Pyre or the Slag or the Mauler anyways, you'd be mad not to use the animus on the King. He'll only ever need it when killing enemy Heavies and Colossals/Gargantuans, but it's nice to be able to get him up to P+S:23 on those Really Big Meaty Fists.

I do worry that we're throwing support at a bad model to upgrade it simply to okay, but I don't have the play experience yet to tell.

-crypto

[hackdZ]

For me, the enjoyment of fielding him will be the look on my opponents face when I plop this massive Troll onto the field.

0.0 (or something like that I imagine)

[cryptomancer]

Another important thing to keep in mind is that the King, for all his stompy glory, shouldn't be the only thing in your army you're supporting. Too, some of your support pieces (the Earthborn, say, or the Mauler, or the Storm Troll) should be able to act seperate from him, or support themselves, or not need much support at all (the Earthborn is a prime example of this). Synergy, folks. Synergy.

-crypto

[sourclams]

You're right but in most cases MtK still represents a negative support drain. He takes the place of two heavies, and replaces their animi (probably Mulg's, which is admittedly no loss, Bomber (modest loss), Earthborn/Mauler or Rok (potentially big losses)) with amuck, Which is at best of marginal use.

This means he actually limits our synergy, by cutting down on diversity of options and limiting the amount of 'interlocking buffs' we normally operate under.

[hooligantuesday]

I think this can be easy to loose sight of when digesting a bunch of new rules and abilities from a model we can't even play yet.

It's reminds me of WoW. I remember when people just went to do dungeons and raids for fun (yes, and phat loots). But when it got to the point of "Hey, you need X for your raid, inv please!" ......... "What's your GS?" ... it kinda takes the fun and imagination out of the game.

In the end, he's going to be fun to paint and play, there can be no doubt of that! ...at least for some of us

I'm calling BS on that one, at the start of a raiding cycle nobody raids "for fun", at that start of the expansions cycle raiding is serious business and relies on everybody knowing their positioning, roles and timing. It's only at the end of the cycle when everybody is geared to hell and back & can afford to carry an undergeared newbie who doesn't know what to do in a boss fight and can't play optimally does anybody start raiding for fun... kind of like the Mountain King really.

[PG_Celedor]

I'm calling BS on that one, at the start of a raiding cycle nobody raids "for fun", at that start of the expansions cycle raiding is serious business and relies on everybody knowing their positioning, roles and timing. It's only at the end of the cycle when everybody is geared to hell and back & can afford to carry an undergeared newbie who doesn't know what to do in a boss fight and can't play optimally does anybody start raiding for fun... kind of like the Mountain King really.

Maybe in your guild, not in mine. And we were successful.

edit: But, I'll agree that, with subsequent expansions, the game trended that way. I was mostly talking about the overall change from Vanilla, like pre-BWL WoW, to Lich King and beyond. GS didn't even exist before Lich King. Although, the most fun I had is when they came out with the 10/25 raid format and I could go with a smaller group of elite friends ;D

[Reuben]

Earthborn+Janissa+min KSB and a min unit of Fenns for screening + pMadrak or any other +6 WB caster = 35 points.
I would be terrified to deal with an ARM 23 MtK at 35 points.
And I don't think 35pts is where the MtK will shine.
(And the EBDT isn't chopped liver at this level either).

[sourclams]

What happens if you run into Arc Shielded Stormwall, pVlad/pButcher/eSorscha Conquest, DW Judicator, or *any* bane spam list, though? 6 Fenns is likely insufficient to screen your models when you factor in Colossal shooting while you have very little to clear their screen other than the Fenns. They can pressure you from greater range with superior shooting so onus is on you to compress distance.

EBDT is going to be P&S18 roughly and MtK P&S20 which is not actually enough to 1-round the above Colossi unless both get B2B simultaneously, which is a tough nut given your already-small screen and insufficient shooting to clear their screen.

ARM22-23 bricks are nothing really new at 35, and the 'other' superheavies seem to do it better, on average.

[cryptomancer]

Okay, going the completely opposite direction of what I mentioned above, here's a little-bit-of-everything list at 35 with the King:

Borka! (5*)
- Keggy (0)
- Axer (+6)
- Mountain King (+20)
KSB (MIN +3)
- UA (+1)
Fennblades (FULL +8)
- UA (+2)

Like I said, a little bit of everything. SPEED is buffed by Rush and the Feat. ACCURACY is buffed by Mosh Pit and Amuck. DURABILITY is buffed by KSB (and the screening Fenns). Heck, POWER is buffed by the Feat too.

I mean, sure, he's boned if he gets any SPD penalties, or the enemy gets upkeeps on him, or he gets engaged by high-DEF troopers. But the point is, the "support" is cheap, simple, and stuff I was probably going to take anyways with Borka.

Huh. This "optimism" thing ain't as hard as it sounds!

-crypto

[Aya]

Oh lord what I wrought?

Just to clarify, its not that I don't care, its that I have to work all day. Now yes, I do think the MK justifies some of his support in that as a Trollblood player your going to bring that stuff anyway (Janissa, KSB). However, looking at a model in just one way (in this case a tournament stand point) is just kind of silly. The point of the game is too have fun, no? And that's what Colossals/Gargantuans are for, having fun. Calling the MK crap and spreading doom and gloom because he wont rock the tourney scene is kind of silly.

[cryptomancer]

Oh lord what I wrought?

Just to clarify, its not that I don't care, its that I have to work all day. Now yes, I do think the MK justifies some of his support in that as a Trollblood player your going to bring that stuff anyway (Janissa, KSB). However, looking at a model in just one way (in this case a tournament stand point) is just kind of silly. The point of the game is too have fun, no? And that's what Colossals/Gargantuans are for, having fun. Calling the MK crap and spreading doom and gloom because he wont rock the tourney scene is kind of silly.

Uh, yeah. We've moved past that and are trying to find good, efficient, fun support combos and strategies. Where you been?



-crypto

[Edwars]

Personally I think the majority of players are looking at this the wrong way.

Instead of "what support do I need to bring with the mountain king?" the question should be "does the mountain king utilize all the support in my list?"

Basically, look at the caters/lists you want to run and consider how the mountain king fits in

Lets start with our beast casters.

Both doomshapers and gunnbjorn

Now when I build list for these caster I generally include thing such as; whelps, KSB, janissaa, rune bearer. These elements allow me to; controll my fury, increase the arm of my battle group and provide board controll. All things needed in a beast centric list. now when I select my battlegroup, I need beasts that player to my casters strengths. Does the mountain king fit into such lists? Yes, in my opinion he does (points efficientcy is another matter and not one I am going to elaborate on).

Now let's look at infantry/beast centric armies.
these armies rely on both infantry and beasts to get the job done.
grim, borka, both madracks, calandra

Now when I'm building these lists my support falls into three categories; infantry (fell caller, chronicler), beast (whelps), or both (janissa, runebearer, KSB). Do these support pieces make it into every list? No, I tailor the support to the army. If I want to run beast heavy I use "beast" and "both" support. If I want to run infantry heavy I use "both" and "infantry" support. Now, does the Mountain king fit into these lists? That is a more difficult question, I still say yes. However, if you include a mountain king, then you should tailor your list to be beast supportive rather than supporting infantry.

Lastly, infantry casters
Jarl, both Griessiels

Both these caster make infantry shine, and as such when I am building lists for them I include only infantry support. Does a mountain king really belong here? Probably not.


Personally I think that if we start to look at the mountain king (and by extensinon colossals and gargantuans) in such a light, we can begin to look at maximizing the king rather than bemoaning "but he really cost X, because I NEED to bring A, B and C".

[redcap71]

Amen Edwars. To echo you bring the units/beasts that best complement your caster. And if you're not totally brain dead you bring things that synergize with what you have and you best believe I will be doing just that if I have sunk 20 points into the Mountain King. I think this sounds exactly like the doom and gloom of Mulg when he was getting nerfed. I said it then that I though Mulg was still good and noe I say the Mountain King is good as well. Like everything in this game you have to plan your lists carefully and get the practice in. And when did the Trolls forum become the Cryx/Legion forum with all of this whining? Play him first then gripe. Sheesh. If we are going to make this forum a good one and not a waste of time we need to be solution and innovation oriented. The Mountain King is another tool in the tool box not a must play piece in some Gargantuan/Colossal member size contest. Privateer Press has been doing a really good job keeping things as balanced as they can and god knows Warmachine needs a boost.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Okay, going the completely opposite direction of what I mentioned above, here's a little-bit-of-everything list at 35 with the King:

Borka! (5*)
- Keggy (0)
- Axer (+6)
- Mountain King (+20)
KSB (MIN +3)
- UA (+1)
Fennblades (FULL +8)
- UA (+2)

Like I said, a little bit of everything. SPEED is buffed by Rush and the Feat. ACCURACY is buffed by Mosh Pit and Amuck. DURABILITY is buffed by KSB (and the screening Fenns). Heck, POWER is buffed by the Feat too.

I mean, sure, he's boned if he gets any SPD penalties, or the enemy gets upkeeps on him, or he gets engaged by high-DEF troopers. But the point is, the "support" is cheap, simple, and stuff I was probably going to take anyways with Borka.

Huh. This "optimism" thing ain't as hard as it sounds!

-crypto

This is much closer to where I am going with the MtK after a bit of experience. I'm going to crib that, and if I can get 3 games in this Saturday, will try it out. If you do end up playing it, let me know how it goes, as this is very close to my thoughts with him.

As far as the fun things, competitive play is fun. There isn't really a lot to discuss if you are playing "only" for fun, or "just" for fun - by that I mean explicitly trying to be non-competitive. It doesn't really matter how strong or weak a model is because it is just for fun.

However, if you do want to start a thread on how fun the MtK is, I am totally okay with that and it could be quite enjoyable. Or a "fun things my Mountain King did today" or something of the like. I'll even get on people's cases if they start talking about how bad the MtK is in a thread like that, because that is not the place. Similarly, in discussions about how strong he is or effective he is, playing for fun vs playing for fun(competitively) isn't really a valid point.

*EDIT* @ Redcap - The overwhelming majority of whiners in these threads is people saying the MtK is good and people that disagree are whining. This seems to be very common lately. Most of us "naysayers" have moved on to figuring out ways to make him work.

[Reuben]

Edited: Rules fail. At least not BC error.

[Lucius]

I'm loving the idea of eDoomie with the Mk.. Obviously suited... But now he gives doomie a pow 15 magical attack that follow gargantuan targeting rules (as in cant hide behind clouds or forests.)

Will be keen to see how everyone else gets on when he's released.

[EvilFuzzyDoom]

I think he's deliberately balanced for 75pt games and up. That way, he's only worth taking when you're taking the support anyway. It looks to me like the best philosophy with Colossals/Gargantuans is "Add this to a normal army and VOILA you have a list for a big game!"

Something like this* 75pt list:
Hoarluk Doomshaper, Rage of Dhunia (*6pts)
* Troll Axer (6pts)
* Mountain King (20pts)
* Dire Troll Mauler (9pts)
* Mulg the Ancient (12pts)
* Trollkin Runebearer (2pts)
Kriel Warriors (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* 3 Kriel Warrior Caber Thrower (3pts)
* Kriel Warrior Standard Bearer & Piper (2pts)
Krielstone Bearer and 5 Stone Scribes (4pts)
* Krielstone Stone Scribe Elder (1pts)
Trollkin Runeshapers (Leader and 2 Crew) (4pts)
Fell Caller Hero (3pts)
Janissa Stonetide (3pts)
Thrullg (3pts)
Trollkin Champion Hero (3pts)

*Disclaimer: I don't actually play eDoomy...

[PG_machine007]

I think he's deliberately balanced for 75pt games and up. That way, he's only worth taking when you're taking the support anyway. It looks to me like the best philosophy with Colossals/Gargantuans is "Add this to a normal army and VOILA you have a list for a big game!"

I think your spot on. There are some models and casters that do much better at higher and scaled point levels, one of which looks like the Mountain King. Most everyone is trying to fit him into smaller games and hoping to make him work, but it is very difficult to do so when you are so restricted on points. There is a reason why the battle report in the last NQ was at 75. Its the level they are meant to played.

P.S. I like the list.

[Crate123]

I'm loving the idea of eDoomie with the Mk.. Obviously suited... But now he gives doomie a pow 15 magical attack that follow gargantuan targeting rules (as in cant hide behind clouds or forests.)

Will be keen to see how everyone else gets on when he's released.

I think you're misunderstanding gargantuan targeting rules.
Gargantuans can not hide anywhere basically (so everyone can draw LOS to it), but everything can hide from the gargantuan using the normal rules for LOS (so the gargantuan does NOT look through clouds and forests).
So Doomy gets the extra 2 points of damage compared to Mulg but the targeting doesnt get any better.

[sourclams]

I think your spot on. There are some models and casters that do much better at higher and scaled point levels, one of which looks like the Mountain King.

All of the Colossals function well in 50 pt games and several of them are very solid picks in 35 pt games. Unless you believe that PP decided giant robots can be played all the time while giant beasts can only be played in abnormally large games I don't think this holds much water.

[cryptomancer]

On the subject of DURABILITY, there's a general consensus from those who've played him that the King can be reliably killed by enemy Heavy-Hunters (to say nothing of Colossals) in a single round, if they've been given the appropriate buffs (and sometimes not even then). Now, the typical response has to do with ARM buffs (KSB, Janissa/Earthborn combo). But what about the humble Bouncer?

The Bounce animus can push any extreme-range or non-Reach Heavy Hunter away so we don't need to deal with it. When it comes to models like the Behemoth, this seems viable to me. Add in that he's a great support piece for our more fragile Warlocks too, and the Bouncer suddenly looks pretty interesting to me.

Thoughts?

-crypto

[SOUPlex]

On the subject of DURABILITY, there's a general consensus from those who've played him that the King can be reliably killed by enemy Heavy-Hunters (to say nothing of Colossals) in a single round, if they've been given the appropriate buffs (and sometimes not even then). Now, the typical response has to do with ARM buffs (KSB, Janissa/Earthborn combo). But what about the humble Bouncer?

The Bounce animus can push any extreme-range or non-Reach Heavy Hunter away so we don't need to deal with it. When it comes to models like the Behemoth, this seems viable to me. Add in that he's a great support piece for our more fragile Warlocks too, and the Bouncer suddenly looks pretty interesting to me.

Thoughts?

-crypto

It's a really situational boon. Bump expires after the first hit, so does nothing to protect our heavies from squads of weapon masters. Additionally, in practice, my opponents simply charge another trooper or throwaway model at the Target first to waste the Bump trigger, then follow up with the heavy hitter.

This is one of those things that no savvy player will fall into. Once they know what bump does, they use counters to nullify its benefit.