Does MtK Justify His Support?

[Edwars]

It's a really situational boon. Bump expires after the first hit, so does nothing to protect our heavies from squads of weapon masters. Additionally, in practice, my opponents simply charge another trooper or throwaway model at the Target first to waste the Bump trigger, then follow up with the heavy hitter.

This is one of those things that no savvy player will fall into. Once they know what bump does, they use counters to nullify its benefit.

Actually, bump triggers off damage, not hit.

but the point remains IF you opportunity is savvy they will send in a weaker model to remove bump before ending in a heavy hitter

[sourclams]

Step 1: Opponent puts throwaway model 2.5" away from MtK
Step 2: Opponent charges heavy into pocket, does damage, triggers Bump, is pushed into throwaway model and stops
Step 3: Opponent takes next 4-5 attacks against MtK

Biggest criticism of MtK is that he doesn't do much new and he requires a lot of niche support. Buying even more niche support (Bouncer) doesn't seem like the answer.

[SOUPlex]

I love the Mountain King model, I have been excited to get it in my hands since we saw a peek of it at the end of the Colossals video. But am I ever going to play it? When trying to make lists for the Mountain King, I keep coming back to the same question: What is the King's role? What is he supposed to do? What does he do in the game?

I can't answer this. I have looked at all the buffing we can give him (which is considerable), but after I load that into the list, I still can't answer this basic question. What is his role?

- He isn't fast enough to quickly claim/contest objectives. That's OK, Fennblades, Tuffaloe, WarWagon can do that for me

- He doesn't Debuff enemy models. That's OK, Trollbloods don't have a lot of that, we have Buffs instead.

- He doesn't Buff my army. Hmm, it has a REALLY situational Animus that really won't be used by our beasts, nor anything that helps the rest of our army...That's OK, we're Trollbloods, we have tons of Buffs.

- He doesn't reliably kill Heavy Jacks/Beasts. His boggling low MAT mean that I'm boosting my to hit rolls, so will only get 3 attacks at straight dice damage, not enough to kill any Heavy. That's OK, I have Mulg, EBDT, and Champions that can do that.

- He isn't survivable. Sure, he has more hitpoints than any other beast, but he's really easy to hit, and literally 20 points of ANYTHING ELSE in our army is more survivable than him. Really, 20 points of Kreil Warriors takes at least 26 attacks to kill them all, and that's if they all fail their TOUGH rolls; 2 EBDT have ~16 more hitpoints than this guy, and can be in 2 separate places, benefit from cover/concealment/terrain to avoid hits.

- Well, he has Whelps! But the Whelps can only be placed in B2B with the King, and can't start the game in play. If I wanted a ton of whelps, I'd pay 6 points for 15 of the awesome little suckers and have more options and tactics with them, as their deployment isn't so restricted.

So what is his Role? His spray? He has an awesome spray. But it's ROF 1, and RAT 5...I guess he could boost everything under the template just to hit DEF >12, but I have Bombers and the War Wagon that can put out the same kind of damage (mind you not in a spray, I get that).

What does this guy do? I want to like him. I want to take him in lists. I want to have a reason to throw my money at PP for him......but I'm not finding one. I guess I can paint him up real nice and put him on the mantle to show off to all my house-guests...

[Kamahin]

Step 1: Opponent puts throwaway model 2.5" away from MtK
Step 2: Opponent charges heavy into pocket, does damage, triggers Bump, is pushed into throwaway model and stops
Step 3: Opponent takes next 4-5 attacks against MtK

Biggest criticism of MtK is that he doesn't do much new and he requires a lot of niche support. Buying even more niche support (Bouncer) doesn't seem like the answer.

I do have to say. If they are charging in a throw away model to trigger bump, that gives us the chance to spawn whelps (x2 if you brought regulars) which could be used to block the charge lane of the real threat model.

Not perfect, but it would be useful.

[sourclams]

I do have to say. If they are charging in a throw away model to trigger bump, that gives us the chance to spawn whelps (x2 if you brought regulars) which could be used to block the charge lane of the real threat model.

Not perfect, but it would be useful.

Opponent' doesn't even attack with the 'anchor' model. You just run it into the perfect place and then put your heavy into the pocket. Literally anything that will not somehow die at the end of its movement can do this. Bump isn't really a front-line defense for this reason. It's good when layered with stuff like IF or a heavy/thick screen but in isolation it's very manageable.

[PG_Viper114]

I just wanna have the Sons of Bragg following him so they can provide their superior melee attacks to help him out!

[Beckman]

I love the Mountain King model, I have been excited to get it in my hands since we saw a peek of it at the end of the Colossals video. But am I ever going to play it? When trying to make lists for the Mountain King, I keep coming back to the same question: What is the King's role? What is he supposed to do? What does he do in the game?

I can't answer this. I have looked at all the buffing we can give him (which is considerable), but after I load that into the list, I still can't answer this basic question. What is his role?

Essentially, this is my problem also. 20 points is a CHUNK.

If you compare damage output and survivability to a pair of Maulers and whelps... Which I would probably rarely take... the Maulers win out. Mulg+Mauler. Solid but less FURY mitigation... Mauler+Bomber for a ranged component.

I'm just really baffled by 20 points, MAT5, and 48 boxes.

If he was MAT6, 18 points, 55 boxes, I would probably be singing a different tune...

I'm sort of lost as to why you wouldn't take two of our role-specific heavies and a few whelps for negligibly more points.

I LOVE the model, and I'm still going to play it. BUT it eats points that could be used to include two important animi to your list.

[gaminguy]

I'm afraid the Mammoth is going to have similar issues, and we don't even have the salve of "well, at least it's immune to TK/Mittens/KD" because we get all that with Tibberion. Tibbers actually suffers under the same kind of comparison of why take him over a Bronzeback that severely out-damages him, the answer is that he's the anchor that the Sentry wishes it was.

If it gets two decent ranged shots out of the four cannons (why Conquest has two cannons and only gets one shot...) I might not care too much.

[Beckman]

I'm afraid the Mammoth is going to have similar issues, and we don't even have the salve of "well, at least it's immune to TK/Mittens/KD" because we get all that with Tibberion. Tibbers actually suffers under the same kind of comparison of why take him over a Bronzeback that severely out-damages him, the answer is that he's the anchor that the Sentry wishes it was.

If it gets two decent ranged shots out of the four cannons (why Conquest has two cannons and only gets one shot...) I might not care too much.

ARM23 with Xeris on Tibby is not OK. And that's BEFORE an agonizer.Tibby almost breaks even with Mulg when you factor in Paingivers. Combine that with an absurd resistance to movement effects... and I think he's the best beast in the game at the moment, bar none.

[PG_machine007]

All of the Colossals function well in 50 pt games and several of them are very solid picks in 35 pt games. Unless you believe that PP decided giant robots can be played all the time while giant beasts can only be played in abnormally large games I don't think this holds much water.

I never said they didn't, my point was that some models scale better at higher point games, which the MK seems like it does because of all the support you need to bring. Its tough to bring all the support you need for it compared to some of its warmachine counterparts that can run without any support outside of a caster in a lower point game. When you bring him at 35 pts for example, you have to build the list around him because of the potential support package...not to mention half your list is dedicated to one model which is a giant bullseye. In a 50 point game you have more stuff, but it seems even at higher level games like, 75, (which is not that abnormal of a game level) they all balance best. Masters at Gencon this year is going to be 75 so it is apparent that PP is looking at higher level games...

[Cannibalbob]

Masters at Gencon this year is going to be 75 so it is apparent that PP is looking at higher level games...

Not a fan of this trend. Their current rules set functions best at low-mid size games. If they want to scale their game up into GW scale territory thats fine, but they need to alter the core rule set to work well at that level.

[The Happy Anarchist]

PP is not going en masse to 75 points. It is going to be an option that is used slightly more often now, but I still think the vast majority of tourneys will be 50 points, both at conventions and at the LGS.

That aside, I think we may be swinging a bit too far into saying he doesn't do anything. Part of the problem, is he does a lot, partially well.

He can't be moved and takes up a lot of space. This has both positive and negative aspects. He can either clear infantry or with the casters that can boost hit chances or knock down targets (i.e. the only casters he should realistically be considered with) he can deal with heavy hitters at a certain level. While he is not as survivable as 2 heavies, he is somewhat survivable. I think that is the main reason I am considering him with infantry screens, because he can't actually eat the first strike.

If you can get the first strike, he becomes much more survivable when you can take out their heavy hitters or cover charge lanes from infantry with existing terrain or some way of generating terrain. This leads me to think that despite the initial inclination, the Axer is actually very important for him, so the Amuck/Axer synergy is a might as well thing.

Keeping those things in mind, you basically take him as something that can deal with a variety of targets if covered properly. This can be difficult to do against many lists, and he is likely not as good as say, a Bomber and a Mauler and maybe some whelps. I am starting to put him in the same general area of Champs in my mind. Not awful, just that there are better options and you can end up in a bad sort of way against the wrong lists.

[SOUPlex]

PP is not going en masse to 75 points. It is going to be an option that is used slightly more often now, but I still think the vast majority of tourneys will be 50 points, both at conventions and at the LGS.

That aside, I think we may be swinging a bit too far into saying he doesn't do anything. Part of the problem, is he does a lot, partially well.

He can't be moved and takes up a lot of space. This has both positive and negative aspects. He can either clear infantry or with the casters that can boost hit chances or knock down targets (i.e. the only casters he should realistically be considered with) he can deal with heavy hitters at a certain level. While he is not as survivable as 2 heavies, he is somewhat survivable. I think that is the main reason I am considering him with infantry screens, because he can't actually eat the first strike.

If you can get the first strike, he becomes much more survivable when you can take out their heavy hitters or cover charge lanes from infantry with existing terrain or some way of generating terrain. This leads me to think that despite the initial inclination, the Axer is actually very important for him, so the Amuck/Axer synergy is a might as well thing.

Keeping those things in mind, you basically take him as something that can deal with a variety of targets if covered properly. This can be difficult to do against many lists, and he is likely not as good as say, a Bomber and a Mauler and maybe some whelps. I am starting to put him in the same general area of Champs in my mind. Not awful, just that there are better options and you can end up in a bad sort of way against the wrong lists.

I think its a little strange to expect to get a first strike with this model. Granted Axer, Lanyssls Ryssyl, doomy/Borka feat can add to its charge range, but then he won't be sweeping anything. So we're expexting a hard target to be our charge Target here. We DO need a knockdown/stationary effect to reliably hit DEF 12+

The King's Target of choice seems to be massed infantry of middling Defense and either single wound, or multiwound with no armor buff (he's rolling dice-1 on a hit, or -4 on a sweep on ARM 20 Man-o-wars for an average of 6/3 a hit). He needs to cast Amuck, sweep, and take advantage of his kill shot to get the most carnage he can...and even then, its not really ipressive.

Do other troll players have problems eliminating low Def, low-mid ARM infantry models? Because I sure don't.

[PG_petegrrrr]

That sort of hit the nail on the head.

Like the skinner, he is an semi-answer to a problem we never had in the first place, but unlike the skinner, he costs 20 points to boot.

[Beckman]

That sort of hit the nail on the head.

Like the skinner, he is an semi-answer to a problem we never had in the first place, but unlike the skinner, he costs 20 points to boot.

Even I am hesitant to draw Skinner parallels on the mountain king yet... I will have to give him table time. He IS a gorgeous model. So I deserve it to the model to play it some before I start to make fun of its rules

I really want it to be good, though. Even though when I look at the stats and compare to the Stormwall or Conquest, I know that it is not...

I would settle for a really small niche that I could play with it and make it good....

[Edwars]

That sort of hit the nail on the head.

Like the skinner, he is an semi-answer to a problem we never had in the first place, but unlike the skinner, he costs 20 points to boot.

Personally, I don't see the need for every new release to "fill a niche" or "fix a problem", but rather new releases should fit the general ethos of a faction. With trolls that ethos is synergy and smashing stuff.

Does the Mountain king fit this ethos? Yes.

So the question still remains, why chose him over our other options that fill the same roles?

Only time, and rigorous play testing, will give us the answer.
but my thoughts are still, he big and mean and he centralizes my fury management (something that can often be a problem)

[gaminguy]

ARM23 with Xeris on Tibby is not OK. And that's BEFORE an agonizer.Tibby almost breaks even with Mulg when you factor in Paingivers. Combine that with an absurd resistance to movement effects... and I think he's the best beast in the game at the moment, bar none.

And he exists in a faction loaded with movement effects that won't work on him where he has to compete with the BB that outdamages him almost 2:1 and Karn's absurd threat range. Don't get me wrong, we're thrilled to have him; he's the character beast a Skorne brick has been waiting for, but Tibbers is definetly not a piece we'll be reaching for all the time.

I couldn't call him best in the game. He's a top contender for best defensive piece, but not best overall.

[SOUPlex]

Personally, I don't see the need for every new release to "fill a niche" or "fix a problem", but rather new releases should fit the general ethos of a faction. With trolls that ethos is synergy and smashing stuff.

Does the Mountain king fit this ethos? Yes.

So the question still remains, why chose him over our other options that fill the same roles?

Only time, and rigorous play testing, will give us the answer.
but my thoughts are still, he big and mean and he centralizes my fury management (something that can often be a problem)

I disagree. Completely. A model does need a Role, or a niche. It does need to solve a problem, even if that problem is already solved by other models in the army. If a model DOES have the same Role as another model(s) in the army, I expect it to A) be different than the other model, and B) be as good at filling that Role as the other model. Not better. Not worse. As good as.

Yes, the King fits the "ethos" or "feel" of the army. He is BIG. But is he bad? I agree that he needs playtesting to see just how he is supposed to work. Right now I am sorely underwhelmed.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I think its a little strange to expect to get a first strike with this model. Granted Axer, Lanyssls Ryssyl, doomy/Borka feat can add to its charge range, but then he won't be sweeping anything. So we're expexting a hard target to be our charge Target here. We DO need a knockdown/stationary effect to reliably hit DEF 12+

The King's Target of choice seems to be massed infantry of middling Defense and either single wound, or multiwound with no armor buff (he's rolling dice-1 on a hit, or -4 on a sweep on ARM 20 Man-o-wars for an average of 6/3 a hit). He needs to cast Amuck, sweep, and take advantage of his kill shot to get the most carnage he can...and even then, its not really ipressive.

Do other troll players have problems eliminating low Def, low-mid ARM infantry models? Because I sure don't.

Last I checked, Def 14-15 is not middling. As a note, Man o War are ARM 21 in shield wall - but if you throw Rage/Stone Strength on him, he does dice +2 on Man o War and cleans them up. That said, I don't have trouble killing them either.

That said, I am not so sure why it is improbable to get a first strike with Rush. Do you find Angels eating the first strike most of the time? Spd 7 reach models get first strikes fairly often. Even more so when you consider the lists I have been, where you have an infantry screen.

I do agree that he is expensive and middling - but we don't need to go to hyperbole on there. A 2x Pow 19 reach model does not only kill infantry with no armor buffs. Amuck and Mat 5 does not hit middling defense. The Mountain King can beat on hard targets, and can kill infantry - and really can kill infantry of all but the highest end of defensive stats - the 16+ defense or Arm 23+ multiwounders. Moreover, that spray can kill support solos which can be key to winning games. The difference between a game against Cryx with and without BLT for example, or trolls with or without Janissa is huge. Almost every list has key solos/UAs that your opponent doesn't want dead - that is half the reason that Jarl is so good except that he is worse at killing BLT and the like and better at killing Eiryss or models with defensive abilities that trigger on attacks like Hawk.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

And he exists in a faction loaded with movement effects that won't work on him where he has to compete with the BB that outdamages him almost 2:1 and Karn's absurd threat range. Don't get me wrong, we're thrilled to have him; he's the character beast a Skorne brick has been waiting for, but Tibbers is definetly not a piece we'll be reaching for all the time.

I couldn't call him best in the game. He's a top contender for best defensive piece, but not best overall.

I think you might be insane.

[SOUPlex]

Last I checked, Def 14-15 is not middling. As a note, Man o War are ARM 21 in shield wall - but if you throw Rage/Stone Strength on him, he does dice +2 on Man o War and cleans them up. That said, I don't have trouble killing them either.

That said, I am not so sure why it is improbable to get a first strike with Rush. Do you find Angels eating the first strike most of the time? Spd 7 reach models get first strikes fairly often. Even more so when you consider the lists I have been, where you have an infantry screen.

I do agree that he is expensive and middling - but we don't need to go to hypoerbole on there. A 2x Pow 19 reach model does not only kill infantry with no armor buffs. Amuck and Mat 5 does not hit middling defense. The Mountain King can beat on hard targets, and can kill infantry - and really can kill infantry of all but the highest end of defensive stats - the 16+ defense or Arm 23+ multiwounders. Moreover, that spray can kill support solos which can be key to winning games. The difference between a game against Cryx with and without BLT for example, or trolls with or without Janissa is huge. Almost every list has key solos/UAs that your opponent doesn't want dead - that is half the reason that Jarl is so good except that he is worse at killing BLT and the like and better at killing Eiryss or models with defensive abilities that trigger on attacks like Hawk.

I'm not going to hyperbole. I'm observing what the Kings limits are. Yes he can hit DEF 14-15 on averages when he uses Amuck and a Trample/Sweep/other power attack, attack. That also means he's missing about half of them. Kyazy, bugged winterguard, etc still dance around that. And even needing 7's to hit DEF 12 means he's missing half ir more of his attacks against the most common Defenses in the game. This includes many heavies, and most lights.

He also can't sweep when he charges, so many of our spd boosters will not help when he just wants to walk into combat.

Also, note that killshot won't trigger off of undead kills, so unless you just walk the King into combat/close to it of a bunch of weapon master banes to use the spray on BLT, it won't get rid if that, or many Cryx solos. It also means we cant crump a warjack and scream at the guys hiding behind it either.

[gaminguy]

I think you might be insane.

How so? Tibbers is a darn good defensive piece, but I couldn't make the case that he's better than Mulg.

Comparing him to Karn or the BB is tricky because they're very close in ability, but good at very different things.

[PG_Vynde]

thats my biggest problem with the MK right now.. why is killshot living model only.. so stupid.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I'm not going to hyperbole. I'm observing what the Kings limits are. Yes he can hit DEF 14-15 on averages when he uses Amuck and a Trample/Sweep/other power attack, attack. That also means he's missing about half of them. Kyazy, bugged winterguard, etc still dance around that. And even needing 7's to hit DEF 12 means he's missing half ir more of his attacks against the most common Defenses in the game. This includes many heavies, and most lights.

He also can't sweep when he charges, so many of our spd boosters will not help when he just wants to walk into combat.

Also, note that killshot won't trigger off of undead kills, so unless you just walk the King into combat/close to it of a bunch of weapon master banes to use the spray on BLT, it won't get rid if that, or many Cryx solos. It also means we cant crump a warjack and scream at the guys hiding behind it either.

The way you phrased it seem to suggest that what king is useful for is middling defense infantry. That is the part that I found dubious. Especially as few people consider Def 14-15 middling.

Your math is also off. Against 14s you need 9s, which is 75% and against 15s you need 10s which is 63% - better than half. Yes, Kayazy and Winterguard still dance around that. They dance around a lot of things, though amusingly enough he doesn't do as bad with pDoomy in that situation - Fortune and Purification go a long way to even hitting Kayazy. Even not accounting for them, that still leaves the vast overwhelming majority of infantry well within the bounds of him killing large numbers of them easily.

Yes, Mat 5 is crap, and it sucks to have. There is a reason I would only consider him when you have solid sources of Mat buffs or at least knockdown. He simply can't live without it. With it, he can kill heavies just fine. 20 points worth of fine? Maybe not so much - that is where everything else has to figure in.

As far as our spd boosters not helping him when he needs to walk into combat, the only two I can think of are Bait the Line, Borka's feat and Lanyssa. Rush, Quicken and eDoomy's feat all work just fine. Oh, Elemental Communion does too. As does fielding him behind a screen of infantry - though I can't test that on table until tomorrow it has worked for my heavy beasts before. Basically, our most common and reliable speed buffs work, our more unreliable and cornercase ones don't. Though really, you weren't using Hunters Mark or Bait the Line to charge infantry. Really, Borka's feat either.

Yeah, Killshot not triggering off undead is rough, but Cryx does have living models that show up frequently. Several flavors of Satyxis, the Siren, Slaughterborn, Pirates popularly nowadays. There are still options, but just in general he seems like a bad choice against Cryx. Some models are.

You are shortchanging him to an alarming degree, basically reducing him to one or two of his abilities. I am not some rabid fanboy and have been deflating a lot of the more optimistic outlooks on him over the last several days, but I don't like it any more when inaccurate things are said that support my position.

[Cannibalbob]

Yeah, Killshot not triggering off undead is rough, but Cryx does have living models that show up frequently. Several flavors of Satyxis, the Siren, Slaughterborn, Pirates popularly nowadays. There are still options, but just in general he seems like a bad choice against Cryx. Some models are.

I think the problem with this limitation is not necessarily undead, but that he cannot flatten warjacks and get his spray off. That just plain sucks. In a situation where he is attacking a warjack he is no better than having a mauler as he cannot even get his spray off - and that sorta sucks from the aspect that you just spent a disproportionate amount of points to deal with something.

As an opponent I would happily stuff jacks in his face to limit what he could do - even crappy jacks he could eat a free-strike from (like a gun bunny) since it will stupidly impede his ability to manuever. If he kills a cheapo jack such as a Nomad, Driller, gun bunny etc then the opponent often just spent a significant chunk of their army dealing with a pretty small chunk of mine. If he tries to ignore it and move around then you have drastically effected how it can move do to that mondo base. And if he decides to just forgo melee and spray then I would be ok with that too since again that forces the troll player to allocate a disproportionate amount of their force to something.

To deal with issues like this will require serious babysitting of some sort. And even if other models are used to remove the offending warjack you will often end up with a friendly heavy beast gumming up the Mountain King's ability to manuever.

Granted this is theory and speculation, but he looks like one of the easier big-mondo-models to impede and screw with. Any turn where his usefulness is reduced to about the level of a Mauler is a win for the opponent.

Note that I am not saying that the MK is worthless, but that this is quite a potential issue for fielding him.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

How so? Tibbers is a darn good defensive piece, but I couldn't make the case that he's better than Mulg.

I definitely could. I think you're underplaying how good defensive models can be. I think a defenders warded Tiberion is, point for point, the hardest model in the game to remove. In SR2012, defensive models are SO important. Yeah, he misses out on stuff like beatback and leash, but this game isn't all about "lolthreatrange". He can still be speed 6 and hit insanely hard. Were I still a Skorne player, I'd play him as often as I could.

[Beckman]

I think you might be insane.

I'm gonna go with this....

Rush works with Tibby, Road to War works with Tibby, Savagery works on him (although skornergy with Enrage)... He is BARELY edged out in damage by the Bronzeback. The only thing that I can think of that fails with him is Leash and the Bronzeback's animus.

A base 9" threat heavy, and 11" with Rush, Mulg-esq damage output (if you include Enrage), with BASE21 ARM and immunity to positioning effects is gross. I'm not above being persuaded that he's not the best beast in the game by logical arguments.. But by my estimation he currently is.

Edit: DEF Ward + Agonizer makes him an impossible problem for some lists.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Yeah, jamming with one or two difficult to remove models causes problems. The Axer can take care of some lights and with reach can stay mostly out of the way - but it is a serious issue.

[cryptomancer]

@Cannibalbob

Exactly. Every time I read that stat card the term "babysitters" comes to mind. I really dislike models that require support to be effective. Reminds me of the end of Mk1. There was even a certain Privateer staffer, now gone, who argued from the point of view that new models were balanced (I'm paraphrasing) "when considering all the support Trollbloods can take". In essence, we were getting things that were expensive and toned down with the expectation that we'd be taking buffers, as though the buffers came for free.

The balance is pretty good in Protectorate releases; for the most part, the 'bloods are doing pretty well. I just feel like there's something I'm missing when it comes to the King.

-crypto

[gaminguy]

An enraged BB does 55 damage to an ARM 20 target on average dice if he goes all-in, 49 if he skimps one to be transferred to, Tibbers does 45 if he goes all-in, 38 if he leaves the transfer open. Thing is; Tibbers is prone to the same issue as the Rhino that wants to charge things he can only reach with his tail, and Tibbers gives up another 7 damage that way so he's frequently at 38/31. That's 30% - 35% less, and it matters now that Colossals are out. (My back-of-the-envelope math was a bit off.)

[PG_Goldstep]

An enraged BB does 55 damage to an ARM 20 target on average dice if he goes all-in, ...

My cribnotes tell me you are missing the free charge from enrage means +3.5.

Which has nothing to do with the mountain king, by the way.


I'll toss in a little note here...
He's worth the points in support if you are going to make him the purpose of your army.
Seriously. If you are Looking at your already made 50 point army and adding him and 5 points of Something, you might be a little disappointed. But PIP keeps talking about how these huge base models are centerpieces and in a buff heavy army like ours, they mean it.


I won't deny that sometimes the old NQ with Mark 1 Tactica troll comes to mind when I look at a new model. A different staffer (not with a J but a B) who wrote that article suggested that if you take the Pyre and the Mauler and the Stone Elder you can give a model a +7... because he was putting 2 animi on the target.
Honestly though, I don't think that happens in people's minds anymore when they think tactics and I do think they try very hard to get balance in Hordes just like we all seem to believe exists in Warmachine. I think also that just having the existence of other Collosal/Garganutan models changes things. For example, sure WE have issue against current choices for Cryx, but then again, Cryx has to make some changes to deal with Stormwall and Conquest and that changes what we will see on the table and suddenly the composition shifts of our army too...

Making the support you bring the the Mountain King more justified as well.

[gaminguy]

My cribnotes tell me you are missing the free charge from enrage means +3.5.

Which has nothing to do with the mountain king, by the way.

P+S 19 is 6 points on arm 20 for 7 attacks (initials plus 5 Fury) = 42
P+S 18 is 5 points doe two more (Tusks plus chain attack) = 10
Charge adds 3.5, total of 55.5

And you're right, it really doesn't have much to do with whether MKing is worth his support. Appologies for the side-track.

I will say that without support I'm not particularly worried about facing off against him, he has a lot of boxes but nothing I don't see chewing through. I also don't ever expect to see one without the Stone Bearer and UA because no Troll player in my meta ever fields without them and Jayanessa. It's similar to Beast Handlers; I'm taking them regardless because what they do is so good, so whether the beasts in my list get the best use from them or not is a moot point.

The question of whether he justifies the support is trumped by the question of whether you ever field without it anyway.

[Goris]

I think also that just having the existence of other Collosal/Garganutan models changes things. For example, sure WE have issue against current choices for Cryx, but then again, Cryx has to make some changes to deal with Stormwall and Conquest and that changes what we will see on the table and suddenly the composition shifts of our army too...

Making the support you bring the the Mountain King more justified as well.

I think this is perhaps the most insightful thing I have seen said about this whole thing. We really have no idea how far reaching the implications these things will have on the local and even national meta, but this touches on it briefly by hinting exactly what might be. It could be completely wrong. It could be right... However as I see it, it's mostly correct. Cryx and other aren't going to look at how great MK is and change their lists. They will look at how great Stormwall and others are and change their lists and that may very well play into out hands.

[SOUPlex]

The way you phrased it seem to suggest that what king is useful for is middling defense infantry. That is the part that I found dubious. Especially as few people consider Def 14-15 middling.

Your math is also off. Against 14s you need 9s, which is 75% and against 15s you need 10s which is 63% - better than half. Yes, Kayazy and Winterguard still dance around that. They dance around a lot of things, though amusingly enough he doesn't do as bad with pDoomy in that situation - Fortune and Purification go a long way to even hitting Kayazy. Even not accounting for them, that still leaves the vast overwhelming majority of infantry well within the bounds of him killing large numbers of them easily.

Yes, Mat 5 is crap, and it sucks to have. There is a reason I would only consider him when you have solid sources of Mat buffs or at least knockdown. He simply can't live without it. With it, he can kill heavies just fine. 20 points worth of fine? Maybe not so much - that is where everything else has to figure in.

As far as our spd boosters not helping him when he needs to walk into combat, the only two I can think of are Bait the Line, Borka's feat and Lanyssa. Rush, Quicken and eDoomy's feat all work just fine. Oh, Elemental Communion does too. As does fielding him behind a screen of infantry - though I can't test that on table until tomorrow it has worked for my heavy beasts before. Basically, our most common and reliable speed buffs work, our more unreliable and cornercase ones don't. Though really, you weren't using Hunters Mark or Bait the Line to charge infantry. Really, Borka's feat either.

Yeah, Killshot not triggering off undead is rough, but Cryx does have living models that show up frequently. Several flavors of Satyxis, the Siren, Slaughterborn, Pirates popularly nowadays. There are still options, but just in general he seems like a bad choice against Cryx. Some models are.

You are shortchanging him to an alarming degree, basically reducing him to one or two of his abilities. I am not some rabid fanboy and have been deflating a lot of the more optimistic outlooks on him over the last several days, but I don't like it any more when inaccurate things are said that support my position.

I'm not so much shortchanging him to an alarming degree as balancing around our other in-faction choices. You mention screening him behind our other infantry, but also having the ability to get an alpha charge off. You were right about hunters mark, bait the line, etc. This guy does NOT want to charge infantry. This DOES short change his movement options with Rush and popping eDoomy's feat, he is Spd 9....walking 9 inches, total threat of 11, but you don't want infantry at 11 inches, you want it close, so your sweep is worth while. You have popped a feat and sent 20 points at something < 11 inches away. Meanwhile, this is also the threat range of many weapon master units, and could also be more with their buffs.

He isn't an alpha striker. Yes, we have speed buffs, but those buffs work better on almost ANY of our other heavy choices...at half the cost.

[Drzombieface]

I don't think I'll be getting an MK. I don't want to have to carry it on my army's back all game. It seems like it needs too much help to do anything but sit there and look pretty.

Mulg is going to be a better choice 99% of the time. And Crit Smiting a caster/lock into their warjack/warbeast that's behind them is hilarious.

[Beckman]

I will say that without support I'm not particularly worried about facing off against him, he has a lot of boxes but nothing I don't see chewing through. I also don't ever expect to see one without the Stone Bearer and UA because no Troll player in my meta ever fields without them and Jayanessa. It's similar to Beast Handlers; I'm taking them regardless because what they do is so good, so whether the beasts in my list get the best use from them or not is a moot point.

The question of whether he justifies the support is trumped by the question of whether you ever field without it anyway.

KSB+SSE & Janissa is much different than Paingivers. All throughout MKII, Trollbloods have been leaning towards not taking the KSB+SSE, except when they take Janissa & EBDT. And while I like beast bricks and I am a fan of the KSB, I have not got the impression that people are always bringing a KSB.

It's a different world from Paingivers, which I would take even in an infantry list.

[The Happy Anarchist]

The question of whether he justifies the support is trumped by the question of whether you ever field without it anyway.

Not exactly. The support is the same cost, but the MtK is much more expensive. Those points have to come from somewhere, and the more support you need the more you have to give up.

I'm not so much shortchanging him to an alarming degree as balancing around our other in-faction choices. You mention screening him behind our other infantry, but also having the ability to get an alpha charge off. You were right about hunters mark, bait the line, etc. This guy does NOT want to charge infantry. This DOES short change his movement options with Rush and popping eDoomy's feat, he is Spd 9....walking 9 inches, total threat of 11, but you don't want infantry at 11 inches, you want it close, so your sweep is worth while. You have popped a feat and sent 20 points at something < 11 inches away. Meanwhile, this is also the threat range of many weapon master units, and could also be more with their buffs.

He isn't an alpha striker. Yes, we have speed buffs, but those buffs work better on almost ANY of our other heavy choices...at half the cost.

The MtK is Spd 5, Rush + eDoomy's feat is a 10" walk with 2" reach. That is much more reasonable, but honestly if they are lining up infantry, I'll let the infantry charge the MtK most of the time - a lot of it won't do much. Even when not, being able to walk 10" and do the thresher isn't bad. That said, I wouldn't use him primarily to thresher infantry - the Axer can handle that fine, particularly with Amuck. I would use the Axer/Primal Shock and anything else to clear lanes to get the MtK into something more important with Wild Aggression on it. Maybe if there is an extra attack trigger Kill Shot.

As an aside, since we are talking about eDoomy - he doesn't really have too much of a problem charging infantry. Infantry that don't get the charge bonus are much weaker than infantry that do, and 7 attacks + a spray with Wild Aggression is going to clear a large portion of a unit, possibly multiple. Or even 6 attacks and boosting on a UA or support model.

None of your weighted examples change the fact that if you bring an Axer, it is effectively Spd 7 with Reach. When's the last time someone said Angels were bad at alpha striking, or Stalkers?

[Crate123]

Angelius and Warpwolf Stalkers are not on huge bases though. Large bases are a lot harder to block than a huge base is. Sure you get the alpha strike but it might be against 1-3 and not the heavy beast.

[notsoevil]

Y'all got some math skills, but it comes down to this for me:

MKpc = EBDTpc + EBDTpc

I've been thinking this whole time that the MK is kinda lame compared to Mulg, who is 8pc cheaper.

But then I realized, it's not that he's more expensive than Mulg -- it's that the MK is two (TWO!) EBDTs on the field.

Holeeeeeee crap.

"Blah blah MK is good with this buff." So what? EBDT is self-reliant! I'm going to model two together like conjoined earthborn twins and run them side by side.

[PG_Celedor]

I'm going to model two together like conjoined earthborn twins and run them side by side.

It`s been done, here.