Mayhaps I found a loophole?

[PG_Viper114]

Maybe...just maybe, I may have found a loophole. Specifically, how Critical Devastation could move Huge based models.

According to the rules of Critical Devastation:

...each model in the AOE is thrown D6" directly away from the attacker regardless of its base size.

"But", you may say, "according to the Battle Engine/Colossal/Gargantuan rules, they cannot be thrown." Normally, I would agree, but here comes the loophole.

According to the Wrath/Domination/Colossals/Gargantuans books, the new rules are simply called "Battle Engine/Colossal/Gargantuan Rules". According to Page 36 of the Hordes rulebook, however:

...most models have special rules that take precedence over the standard rules. Depending on their use, special rules are categorized as abilities, feats, special actions, special attacks, or orders.

The rule that states huge-based models cannot be thrown is none of those things. It is found simply in the books, and therefore it must be categorized as a Standard Rule. And according to page 29 of the Hordes rulebook:

Additional special rules apply to specific models and modify the standard rules in certain circumstances. When they apply, special rules take precedence.

So by this logic, the rule in the books that say these models cannot be thrown is a Standard Rule. Critical Devastation is a special rule found on the unit entry/card, and therefore takes precedence as per Page 29 of the Hordes rulebook. And since Critical Devastation says "regardless of its base size", that then must mean the huge based model must be thrown D6" away from the attacker if it occurs.

Is this not so? Even though these models are massive, a sufficient enough force can still toss these things around, and Critical Devastation could be that force. It's hardly a game changer since it's a Critical effect and cannot be relied on, but still, it can make a difference, couldn't it?

[Obeisance]

There's also another rule that says "cannot" always takes presidence over permission effects.

[PG_Viper114]

True, on page 29 of the Hordes rule book, BUT:

Special rules stating that something "cannot" happen override rules stating that the same thing "can" or "must" happen.

It's not a special rule, it's a Standard rule that says huge based models cannot be thrown. So this can't apply it seems.

[Bishop84]

If you use that logic, then pKrueger can throw colossals with his Tornado spell. It also says "regardless of base size." As awesome as that would be, I'm sure that is not the designers intent. "Regardless of base size" just means it ignores the part in throws that they can't throw a larger based model.

If you want to get all lawyery with the book, I'd say all colossals share a common set of special rules found in the Colossals rulebook. Standard rules are the rules found in the main rulebook.

[Bobby1213]

k so you can throw a huge base, great. Colossals cannot be moved. You can throw it but it won't move. This is the only conclusion with those 2 rules.

[Dire Forum Troll]

True, on page 29 of the Hordes rule book, BUT:



It's not a special rule, it's a Standard rule that says huge based models cannot be thrown. So this can't apply it seems.

Is there any proof to support your assumption ? Any page reference ?
I agree with Bishop84, those Battle Engine/Colossal rules are just as special as the Critical Devastation rule , if not more special.

[Hug a Gorax]

I haven't got the collosal/battle engine rules in front of me, but from the scan of the gargantuan rules in the other forum it says: "Gargantuans cannot be...[]", not "Huge-based models cannot be...[]". So Critical Devastation ought to be able to move him even though he's on a huge base, but he can't be moved because he's a Gargantuan (and nothing to do with base size, so not over-ruled by the special rule). No?

[maddermax]

Yes, the restriction on moving a colossal/gargantuan has nothing to do with it's base size. The base size does not determine that they cannot be moved, other special rules of colossals/gargantuans determine they cannot be moved. As such, a gargantuan hit by a critical devastation would still not be moved.

[Wishing]

It's an interesting observation, but my feeling is that even though we feel that the WM/H rules are very precise and technical, they aren't really. An example is the part about special rules (usually? always?) being "abilities, feats, special actions, special attacks, or orders". You infer that the Colossal rules released must be standard rules since they are none of those things. But that they are none of those things is also just inference. They don't specify. You could easily interpret them as a group of special abilities. There is simply too much implication, inference and assumption here - intentionally, since the rules fundamentally rely on people understanding the intent - to call this a technical loophole.

[Rynth]

If we follow the special trumps standard line of thought what use are many of the Colossal's(and battle engine's) rules?
Colossal rule says no Stationary. Sorscha's feat says stationary. Special trumps standard.
Colossal rule says no Knocked down. Kreoss1's feat says knocked down. Special trumps standard.
Colossal rule says no opponent taking control. Machine Wraith says take control. Special trumps standard.
Colossal Rule says no disruption. Nemo1's feat says disruption. Special trumps standard.
Colossal rule says cannot gain stealth. Kaelyssa's feat says gain stealth. Special trumps standard.

Keep in mind that early in the rules for Warjacks in Prime MK2 there is a sentence that says something along the lines of "All Warjacks have these special abilities." If the book has a similar sentence than that makes all those shared Colossal rules into special rules and they once more trump(I have no book, so I don't know if such a sentence is there). We could also work under the assumption that those rules are supposed too have meaning and apply them in all situations.

[PG_Viper114]

That's true. And I can pretty much be certain that's not the intention, but that's how I read this according to the rulebook if taken extremely literally. I plan to keep the proper intention of the rules regardless and say these things just can't be stopped or moved by outside factors as it's supposed to be, but it's still an interesting observation anyway.

[solkan]

I'm sorry that you don't think the Colossal rules are special.

Because if they aren't special, you're left with two contradictory rules and no way to resolve the situation. And you break an amazing amount of the game if you don't apply the rules priority guidelines to the "standard rules".

[PG_Viper114]

But in the extremely literal sense, the Battle Engine/Colossal/Gargantuan rules are NOT considered "Special Rules", because the rulebook defines said special rules as abilities, feats, special actions, special attacks, or orders.

Steady is an ability that prevents knockdown, so it is a special rule. Huge based models have a rule that say they cannot be knocked down, but it's not found on their unit entry or card, so it must be considered a standard rule.

That's how I see it in the extremely literal sense. But I think it's SO literal, that it breaks the intentions set out by the rules for huge-based models, and no rule judge is going to allow it. Still, you never really know people perfectly, and if I can see something like this, you can damn well be certain others out there will see it too, and will do their best to exploit it and challenge any opposition otherwise.

[Pixl]

But in the extremely literal sense, the Battle Engine/Colossal/Gargantuan rules are NOT considered "Special Rules", because the rulebook defines said special rules as abilities, feats, special actions, special attacks, or orders.

Steady is an ability that prevents knockdown, so it is a special rule. Huge based models have a rule that say they cannot be knocked down, but it's not found on their unit entry or card, so it must be considered a standard rule.

So power attacks are not special rules then as they are not on any cards? I would realy lie a reference to where it says that rules must be on a card to be a "special rule".

[PG_Viper114]

As per the rulebook, special rules are abilities, feats, special actions, special attacks, or orders. All of which are found in the unit entry found in the books, which in turn is printed on the cards. Cards are just a conveniently portable reprinting of the unit entries in the books.

The ability to perform power attacks, and the power attacks themselves, are standard rules, as they are all found in the rulebook.

[Saraminss]

But if they put all the special stuff for gargantuans and collosals on cards each one would have 4-6 cards...

[PG_Viper114]

Exactly. Logically, putting THAT many rules onto the cards is ridiculous. So they just put them in the books.

It's all just semantics, really. But I know at some point, someone else is going to be at a tournament with this exact same knowledge. And a situation like this will come up, and he'll go "Oh, you think so, do you?" as he pulls out his mini rulebook with all the points bookmarked and highlighted and will try his best to ensure it happens. There's always bound to be at least one who will go the extra mile to win. And what better way to do it than by turning the rulebook against his opponent?

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

...

Colossals don't move because colossals have a rule that says they don't. Not because they have huge bases. It's completely irrelevant.

"Regardless of base size" is in there to override the stipulation that you can't throw a larger based model. It doesn't work because there is no interaction between the rules. Not because of some byzantine difference in rule types.

[PG_Viper114]

Either way, I myself don't plan to let such things fly around my area, and I'm certain an Infernal would agree with you. But someone somewhere out there might one day. I just know it...

[Valander]

Great Machine is a rule on Colossals, and it specifically prevents what it says it does. Great Machine is not, however a rule about base sizes; that is a separate rule for Colossals. So, the Critical Devastation's clause of "regardless of base size" does not interact with Great Machine at all, thus Great Machine still works as stated.

[PG_Viper114]

Hmmm, now I see. It looked like it was a possibility, but now it looks like it adds up.