Is MHSF too good?

[Pinegulf]

MHSF+UA+Ravyn (snipe) & Feat. Threat 16+6" hitting def 16 on 62.5% (def 15 74%) chance. Team hanging behind forest/house/cloud make them pretty untouchables. Question is is this combo 'too good'?

I'm rising this because enemy has very little to counter this threat. Only options would be seeking melee with caster, high ground or lob AOE:s and jacks towards the strikeforce.

So what would you do to counter this threat or would it be more 'fair' to leave these dudes home?

[Mephaine]

Warmachine yes I will argue they are leathel. Jacks cry when they are near and even then they have that lovely CMA so in combat with Arcane Assassin you can pose a threat to Warcasters.

Again AOEs maul us as you did mention as they will fall quickly if even a light breeze looks at them funny.

SO yes Warmachine we rokz the soxz but flip it to Hordes and you see the very good counter balance. They can only handle one side well but the other side giggle at their lil bows.

Still Ravyn is awesome with them ans enjoy the mauling powwa.

[Hjiryon]

I'd say they are our best unit, hands down. What they do is unique, and for 10 points for 11 models (that's including the UA), they're a bargain.

Too good? I don't know. I often play against hordes and they're not exactly overwhelming there.
With Khador, they struggle to do much to the heavy 'Jacks, despite boosted damage rolls. Decent threat to non-Karchev 'Casters, though.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

The short? No. It's powerful, but there's ways to deal with it. You have to also look at other combination of Unit + UA + Spell + Feat that other factions can do. When you do that you see a similar combination of power levels.

Example:

Winterguard Deathstar:

Full Winterguard + UA 8 pts
Add in Butcher for Iron Flesh + Feat

The whole unit is looking at DEF 17 while advancing, and has 12 RAT 5/6 Sprays hitting at a POW 12 + 3D6 under the feat.

If you are going to go for such a 4 way combo, you can make things pretty disgusting.

[iksander]

Are they OP? Yeah, everything with Mage Hunter in the name is OP barring Narn. Are they truly broken? No, although I am definitely not a fan of them when combined with scenarios that require a rush towards the center.

IMO, Any caster or lock with a base armor value lower than 17 hates them. At Arm 17 you get to shrug off 50 percent of the hits on average so the Mage Hunters are more tolerable.

So as a Cygnar player, I'd say Siege is a good call in general as he has a decent enough arm and hit boxes to withstand the assassination attempt as well as anti stealth tech. Darius and Kraye fulfill the arm requirement and aren't horrible choices due to a ton of hit boxes (in Darius' case) and ride by attack (in Kraye's case); although I'm not particularly enamored with Kraye or Darius.

Major Haley and Commander Stryker can delay Rayvn's feat turn/assassination attempt with their respective feats but they have to kill Rayvn or the enough of the Mage Hunters to survive Rayvn's feat turn.

Casters with Chain lightning (Captain Haley, Commander Nemo) have a punchers chance of dealing with the Strike Force, although you'll probably be sending one of your models off to die as an impromptu Chain lightning relay/bait. (IMO Rangers excel at this due to cheap cost, spd 7, and pathfinder). Still both casters need to kill the majority of the mage hunters or they're toast.

Models/Units that are decent Metagame answers? Gun Mages/Black 13th are decent with their anti stealth tech, although Rayvn can just use her feat to wipe out the anti stealth tech instead. Trencher Commandos out range the Mage Hunters with their grenades, but it's definitely not an ideal fight. Templates such as Suppressing Fire/Metal Storm/etc.., can be used as area denial to prevent Mage Hunters from setting up.

[karn987]

Are they to good? *laughs* Not even close. *watches as any kind of AE wipes out the unit* Yeah, that about sums up my interaction with this unit. I don't like them and the only reason I use them is for their ua and a min unit to nail annoying things like the choir. Otherwise, Sentinels are much better jack hunters and can actually take a hit and live (not to mention vengance).

So again, are they to good? Not even close. Our best unit is the Houseguard Halbs by far. These guys are like the Saytix Raiders, really cool and do a specialized thing, but die very very easily when someone puts their mind to killing them.

[isawatsuke]

at first glance they look op.... after playing with them a while im inclined to say no. Jacks at base arm 18-19 means that one squad wont reliably kill one and they are at rat 6. Dont get me wrong theyre a good unit but dont perform to op levels of brokenness that youd expect after reading thier cards.

Its also not wise to consider feats and upkeeps when considering a models brokeness. I mean i could put that snipe on the invictors and get range 18 guns. Oh look we imported burst cannons. For the greater good ! ^__^

edit: im kinda leaning toward hh as our best units too. a 4 pt unit (well 6 pts cuz of ua) that does that much allows me to cram another one of our super solos in my lists.

[Godpox]

I also don't care for them. I'd much rather field Invictors or Sentinels.

[PG_Clutch]

I also don't care for them. I'd much rather field Invictors or Sentinels.

Don't know if I'd go that far (although I DO love the Dawngaurd units). They serve a role that as of right now we need.

None of our army can stand toe to toe with another army if you just line 'em up. Where we excel is the face we can unravel the plans of a lot of armies but killing important support features. You really have to play the army like a doctor using a scalpel to get to the heart of the problem.

The MHSF is that scalpel. They can walk up kill solos, UAs, and more without having to worry too much about LOS. They can take out light jacks fairly easy, and annoy heavy jacks too.

Are they OP? Well in certain situations (your opponents walks up with a lightly armored caster into Ravyn's feat), sure they are. But if you opponent knows what is going on, they can fin ways to neutralize them...then they don't seem too crazy.

[Zerosoul]

Are they to good? *laughs* Not even close. *watches as any kind of AE wipes out the unit*

Unless they're hiding behind a handy forest or building and you can't target them, but they can still shoot your face off at will. Oops!

[Ghyrrshyld]

Unless they're hiding behind a handy forest or building and you can't target them, but they can still shoot your face off at will. Oops!

I don't think it's a problem on any of the Steamroller maps.

[masleth]

I've had great success with them, and great success against them. Yeah, they rock. But every faction has some rock in them. If anything, they might be a tad undercosted, but other than that, they are fine.

[Mr_Smigs]

let's see... feat turn with the snipe shuffle, you're talking 22" of 20+ boosted attack rolls against flat armor/def against the enemy warcaster hitting at POW 10...

so... 20 shots averaging 1-2 damage each... hitting 2/3rds of the time...

15 - 30 damage on the enemy warcaster/warlock...

nope... not Over the top in any way...


thankfully, the other factions have stealth and the like to deal with it... except for one that comes to mind... but no one ever plays that faction anyways...

[Hjiryon]

let's see... feat turn with the snipe shuffle, you're talking 22" of 20+ boosted attack rolls against flat armor/def against the enemy warcaster hitting at POW 10...

so... 20 shots averaging 1-2 damage each... hitting 2/3rds of the time...

15 - 30 damage on the enemy warcaster/warlock...

nope... not Over the top in any way...


thankfully, the other factions have stealth and the like to deal with it... except for one that comes to mind... but no one ever plays that faction anyways...

20 shots at range 22? So you're taking about a Ravyn list, where you spend 3 focus to shuffle around snipe to two full units (22 shots by the way, the UA shoots as well). And manage to set it all up to function correctly, of course.

You may want to consider that also means you're talking about 20 points of your army in a list that will very likely be vulnerable to melee units (what will you do to handle those otherwise?) since you're not allowed to field melee units aside from invictors. Sure it's nasty. It's also an extremely specialised build that others will learn to adapt to pretty quickly.

[Mr_Smigs]

20 shots at range 22? So you're taking about a Ravyn list, where you spend 3 focus to shuffle around snipe to two full units (22 shots by the way, the UA shoots as well). And manage to set it all up to function correctly, of course.

You may want to consider that also means you're talking about 20 points of your army in a list that will very likely be vulnerable to melee units (what will you do to handle those otherwise?) since you're not allowed to field melee units aside from invictors. Sure it's nasty. It's also an extremely specialised build that others will learn to adapt to pretty quickly.

hmm... what melee can't be cleared out of the way turn 1 before the assassination run?

[knight_actual]

it IS pretty hard to deal with if you're not ready for it - esp when they're overloaded. But then - it's more or less the same story with everything isn't it?

That list isn't doing jack swat against the usual Karchev loadout.

[Mr_Smigs]

it IS pretty hard to deal with if you're not ready for it - esp when they're overloaded. But then - it's more or less the same story with everything isn't it?

That list isn't doing jack swat against the usual Karchev loadout.

that's the counterpoint?

like i said, there are responses to it,
but alot of casters are left swinging in the breeze if their front line is compromized...

you sport a cygnar logo,
what's the cygnar response to that much accurate, LOS ignoring firepower?
and is that response something you'd take to a regular game/tourney?
(not to promote tourney mentality, but when people talk about a unit being Over Powered that's really what they're asking...)

with the ability to strike first, strike accurately, and little fear of retaliation, what makes this a unit not worthwhile?

[Mavwick]

My first two or three games with the MHSF+UA in my lists felt almost like deadweight. DEF14 kept them alive, but their opposition didn't really allow their weapons to get much done. (Cavalry ran up into them, for example.) The last game, though, they tore up some of Magnus' battlegroup good even if I still lost. They scared his lights away from that side of the board and survived inevitable AOE death thanks to it.

The Ravyn combo seems really good, but I'd rather take Invictors or Houseguard Riflemen for her snipe spell than the off chance that I'm fighting a warcaster with just the right stats to kill with that concept. I've never desired using it. It will kill off 'casters like Caine in one turn, but most would need to be whittled down after a few turns. Most opponents won't give you that time.

[isawatsuke]

that's the counterpoint?

like i said, there are responses to it,
but alot of casters are left swinging in the breeze if their front line is compromized...

you sport a cygnar logo,
what's the cygnar response to that much accurate, LOS ignoring firepower?
and is that response something you'd take to a regular game/tourney?
(not to promote tourney mentality, but when people talk about a unit being Over Powered that's really what they're asking...)

with the ability to strike first, strike accurately, and little fear of retaliation, what makes this a unit not worthwhile?

I play both retribution and cygnar.

For one thing theyre only that accurate when you put a feat on top of them. IMO feats are supposed to push things over the top. Thats why theyre once per game. So you either pick wheter theyre accurate on the first shot or during caster kill as you put in your example. WIthout feat they can be reliably be dealt with by atgms and black 13th which cygnar plyers usually bring. I dont have her card handy but ehaleys deceleration gives minuses to attack rolls instead of bonuses to armor and def right? (will check this later i leave all my figs and cards at my lgs) I own 20 magehunters and 2 commanders and use the tier list from time to time but ive never had a table where i could hide all 22 of em behind terrain to fully utilize phantom seeker, so your opponents are going to have los to some of em.

Severel standard builds hose them cryxian bane thrall spam, karchev jack list (maybe butcher jack lists too), Lists with lots of incorporeal, Montenebra jack lists, etc. I actually tried shooting a death jack with one whole squad on turn one and i think they managed to do a total of 10-12 boxes of damage only.

[PG_Stevo]

MHSF+UA+Ravyn (snipe) & Feat. Threat 16+6" hitting def 16 on 62.5% (def 15 74%) chance. Team hanging behind forest/house/cloud make them pretty untouchables. Question is is this combo 'too good'?

I'm rising this because enemy has very little to counter this threat. Only options would be seeking melee with caster, high ground or lob AOE:s and jacks towards the strikeforce.

So what would you do to counter this threat or would it be more 'fair' to leave these dudes home?

It's only unfair if your opponent NEVER uses any combination of models.

[bouncymischa]

It's only unfair if your opponent NEVER uses any combination of models.

I figure if I ever take the MHSF+UA combo, for my 3 terrain pieces I'm going to pick the 3 12" long x 2" wide x 2" tall rock walls we've got at my store. I'll lay down so they form barricades across the middle of the table, with only 6" gaps inbetween. And take Aiyanna & Holt just in case my opponent has incorporeal shenanigans.

Might as well take the cheese all the way... :P

[ArchonXVI]

To the OP:

Short answer- yes, probably. It harkens back to the good ol' days of MkI, only there isn't much around that can pull this kind of stuff anymore.

[PG_Stevo]

I figure if I ever take the MHSF+UA combo, for my 3 terrain pieces I'm going to pick the 3 12" long x 2" wide x 2" tall rock walls we've got at my store. I'll lay down so they form barricades across the middle of the table, with only 6" gaps inbetween. And take Aiyanna & Holt just in case my opponent has incorporeal shenanigans.

Might as well take the cheese all the way... :P

Getting to set up the entire table isn't part of the OP's question. Terrain placement isn't supposed to happen that way according to the rules of the game.

If your opponent wants to not be able to see your army, then you are a lucky Retribution player. Most of the time this won't be happening.

There are numerous combinations of units/abilities/spells/rules interactions that prove quite powerful. MHSF+UA+Ravyn's Snipe+Feat is only one of them. It is also a Feat combo, meaning it isn't sustainable.

[Ghyrrshyld]

20 shots at range 22? So you're taking about a Ravyn list, where you spend 3 focus to shuffle around snipe to two full units (22 shots by the way, the UA shoots as well). And manage to set it all up to function correctly, of course.

Also, I want to know how you actually fit 22 models in her control area that can also have range on a Warcaster.

that's the counterpoint?

like i said, there are responses to it,
but alot of casters are left swinging in the breeze if their front line is compromized...

you sport a cygnar logo,
what's the cygnar response to that much accurate, LOS ignoring firepower?

Play Siege and ignore the pitter patter against his armor, followed by killing them all?

[Zerosoul]

I don't think it's a problem on any of the Steamroller maps.

Is it really your position that on none of the Steamroller maps (that, I'll also point out, are intended for the previous version of Steamroller anyway) are there any pieces of terrain that can block LoS to the Mage Hunter Strike Force while still letting them remain important tactically?

[Ghyrrshyld]

Is it really your position that on none of the Steamroller maps (that, I'll also point out, are intended for the previous version of Steamroller anyway) are there any pieces of terrain that can block LoS to the Mage Hunter Strike Force while still letting them remain important tactically?

I have seen a couple of pieces, but none that were extremely potent, like a wall in the middle of the field.

There are a number of low walls and houses and stuff that they get to take advantage of, but nothing like the brutality they can unleash on a board that 2 players set up for themselves.

[javy241677]

I have had mixed results with the Mage Hunters. They seem to miss a bit more often then usual, and the damage they produce is decent towards select models.
They are not broken, because I think these were things put into them to not make them broken. Do you imagine if they had combined ranged attack?
Anything that has more then 17 armor and is not a warjack has a possibility of surviving an attack from these guys.
I faced Feora and had clear shot from roughly about 8 of my mage hunters. They did about 6 points of damage after I was done. A lot of them missed because if I am not mistaken she is about 14 def and that is above average to hit.

My conclusion has been they are great vs low armor units, support solos, officers and light jacks as a speciality. They can take down warcasters by sheer force of attacks but it s really a luck of the draw in dice unless low armor on that warcaster.

[Ghyrrshyld]

Anything that has more then 17 armor and is not a warjack has a possibility of surviving an attack from these guys.
I faced Feora and had clear shot from roughly about 8 of my mage hunters. They did about 6 points of damage after I was done.

Funny story here: I charged her with Garryth last Saturday and attacked her 7 times with the same result.

[knight_actual]

Last time I faced that exacty combo they blew their load on my ATGMUA unit-killing all but 2, then eNemo and his friendly heavies brigade struggled their way through with lightning, thunder, and lots of focusto demolish the group.

A different time, they ate unit of Lancers running/charging to engage them and several other things. The lancers ate the unit after a couple of turns of swinging and leaping. A second wave of sword knights and jacks finished the other part of the list.

The very first time I faced them was under a Kaelyssa theme list - pNemo threshed one unit with the help of a lancer that arced CL onto a stormblade a couple of times. A&H& a handy building held up the other unit.

[PG_Gearjock]

The shuffle doesn't work on feat turn. Only 1 unit is going to benefit from snipe AND feat. Of course, you can still have 1 unit with snipe, use ravyn, re-cast and pop feat, then have second unit with boosted attacks. However, their is a big difference there.

let's see... feat turn with the snipe shuffle, you're talking 22" of 20+ boosted attack rolls against flat armor/def against the enemy warcaster hitting at POW 10...

so... 20 shots averaging 1-2 damage each... hitting 2/3rds of the time...

15 - 30 damage on the enemy warcaster/warlock...

nope... not Over the top in any way...


thankfully, the other factions have stealth and the like to deal with it... except for one that comes to mind... but no one ever plays that faction anyways...

[FearLord]

The shuffle doesn't work on feat turn. Only 1 unit is going to benefit from snipe AND feat. Of course, you can still have 1 unit with snipe, use ravyn, re-cast and pop feat, then have second unit with boosted attacks. However, their is a big difference there.

Damn, beat me to it! This is key - you can only get one unit with extra range. It's a nasty feat, no doubt, but they should be nasty - this combo happens to cost a full unit of Mage hunters + UA. eCaine just needs Reinholt and Squire and he's just as threatening to enemy casters...

[6Jackal9]

I woun't say eny thing about OP but they defenetly are not fun to play against.

[GunMageinTraining]

Yes... Next?

Oh dear... blasts kill them.

Blasts kill my ATGMs, Longgunners, Trenchers (when not dug-in), Commandos, Mechaniks, and even Stormblades/Guard and Swordknights if they aren't in defensive line and/or have an arcane shield.

Blasts kill lots of stuff. But yes..

OP, not that there's much to do about it anymore.

[PG_Stevo]

Blasts, Chain Lighting, Ashes to Ashes, True Sight, Eyeless Sight, Airburst, Murder of Crows, Ground Pounder, Lamentation/Purification (gets rid of Snipe), Trample, Reach weapons, Stealth units/solos, Windwall, Fog of War...

[1oldjedi]

So is the general consensus they are only worth taking with Ravyn for her feat? Or maybe larger Rahn lists where he can protect them with Force Field?
Does adding a soulless help?

I thought it weird adding in a model that has a lower def and doesn't have stealth to a unit that does....

[PG_Stevo]

So is the general consensus they are only worth taking with Ravyn for her feat? Or maybe larger Rahn lists where he can protect them with Force Field?
Does adding a soulless help?

I thought it weird adding in a model that has a lower def and doesn't have stealth to a unit that does....

The MHSF is fine, it's just not as overpowered as many players think it is. As to the Soulless Escorts, they are fine. You can keep them far enough away from the rest of the unit that their lack of Stealth isn't a hindrance. They grant Mage Static and you can force enemy upkeeps to expire, which are both useful abilities.

[Lazlo]

So is the general consensus they are only worth taking with Ravyn for her feat? Or maybe larger Rahn lists where he can protect them with Force Field?
Does adding a soulless help?

I thought it weird adding in a model that has a lower def and doesn't have stealth to a unit that does....

MHSF is a great unit with any of our casters. However a full unit is obscene with Ravyn's feat and Snipe.

Regardless of the caster, the strike force does a number of things well. They are great at taking out important support, pinging jacks (and don't underestimate a charge from these guys on a jack), and taking out infantry. Trenchers and Idrians fear these guys, and rightly so. They are also a good psychological weapon, though not quite so much as the assassins.

That said, I've had more success with a min unit + UA than with the full unit. Seven models is easy to move around and not a significant point sink.

As for the escorts, I usually prefer to put them on other units. A -5 RNG to spells is generally only useful on spells with a RNG less than 10 to start with, as usually the origin of the spell has to get within 5" of the strike force. But the escorts bring other benefits to the table, like getting rid of upkeeps and providing a nice magical sword with flank when things are engaging my hunters, so I have on occasion included them. Keeping them at the back of the unit has always been enough to keep them safe for me.

[mege]

I woun't say eny thing about OP but they defenetly are not fun to play against.

I think this is more the song and dance - they really leave opponents feeling helpless. If anything gets close to them in melee they're going to have a hard time - but with their range with they will ALWAYS get the first strike. That's the kicker when facing other armies.

+Stealth (so, they don't have attrition against them except with AOEs)
+ignoring arm/def spells on the target
+ignoring overboost
+extra dice on jacks
+ignoring LOS w/UA

It all adds up to being a lot of negating ANYTHING opponents have to do. I think without any one of these things they'd be a great unit. With all of it they're a great unit with too many abilities that make opponents feel helpless against them.

Is the only real disadvantage their low armor and vuneralbility to AoEs? Otherwise it's just hoping to make the run to get in melee of 2-3 full groups of them in Retribution tier lists?

Those that play MHSF well - what do you fear the most? If melee is what you fear the most - what units specifically in what situations?

[Jice_]

Those that play MHSF well - what do you fear the most? If melee is what you fear the most - what units specifically in what situations?

I think this is a case where homeopathy is actually relavent, like cures like. Trecher commando's are probably the best thing other than gun mages I can see as a counter. High mat, AoE's and sprays that ignore stealth, and stealth themselves which is something the MHSF doesn't ignore.

[Lazlo]

While they have lots of useful abilities, they have a couple weaknesses. While MAT/RAT 6 is pretty decent in other factions, Retribution lacks many ways of improving accuracy. Garryth has Death Sentence, Rahn has Telekinesis, and Ravyn has her feat. Death Sentence doesn't really make you more accurate, just more reliable. Telekinesis is nice, but that's a single target. Ravyn's feat is the only thing that affects the strike force itself (as well as anything else in her CTRL range), and that makes it quite good with them.

They also have a hard time with Stealth and high non-spell boosted armor.

POW 10 has a hard time getting through most shield walls. High Shield Gun Corps are a good counter, so are our own Halberdiers (9" shield wall with Reach).

They don't like Stealth units like Bane Thralls, Commandos, or Striders. Personally, I've had a lot of success against them with Striders.

High DEF vs. ranged works too. Battle Mages are DEF 15 against ranged, which is pretty good. Satyxis are DEF 16 against ranged, even better. Nyss Hunters, Kayazy, Daughters...all of them are trouble for the strike force. And of course Gun Mages, who have better DEF and RAT (and access to things like Temporal Barrier and Deadeye) and can see through Stealth.

Cavalry are a great counter. Lots of speed, many of them with Reach, good armor and multi-wound.