Petition to give Retribution of Scyrah "Guidance"!

[Bully Bully Mahu]

Post here whether or not you agree, but here is the proposal.

Give Ret a 2 point model (character or not is up to PP) that has the following rule:

Guidance (★Action) - Range 5", if the target friendly faction model is in range, it gains Eyeless Sight and all its weapons are magical for one turn.

If it looks familiar, it is a rule on the Skorne Extoller Soulward. The solo can be a totally different type of solo from the Extoller Soulward.

Please PP, give us our own "Vassal of Menoth", and let it have this rule. It would single handily make Retribution the competitive faction it needs to be.

[quindraco]

Post here whether or not you agree, but here is the proposal.

Give Ret a 2 point model (character or not is up to PP) that has the following rule:

Guidance (★Action) - Range 5", if the target friendly faction model is in range, it gains Eyeless Sight and all its weapons are magical for one turn.

If it looks familiar, it is a rule on the Skorne Extoller Soulward. The solo can be a totally different type of solo from the Extoller Soulward.

Please PP, give us our own "Vassal of Menoth", and let it have this rule. It would single handily make Retribution the competitive faction it needs to be.

This ability may not be as good as you think it is, but I have no problem with Retribution getting this - it has minimal synergy with you, since so many of your warjack weapons are already magical, and Vyros does a reasonable job of simulating Eyeless Sight himself, without being overpowered.

[leo_neil316]

Please PP, give us our own "Vassal of Menoth", and let it have this rule. It would single handily make Retribution the competitive faction it needs to be.

That arcanist not 'take this and have it follow your jack around' enough for you?

And didn't ret just take a masters somewhere?

[KhisanthMagus]

This ability may not be as good as you think it is, but I have no problem with Retribution getting this - it has minimal synergy with you, since so many of your warjack weapons are already magical, and Vyros does a reasonable job of simulating Eyeless Sight himself, without being overpowered.

I think the important part is the fact that eyeless sight ignores stealth, as this would give ret their best way to handle stealth models.

[Curufew]

...every faction got to have some weakness somewhere. Your MHSF and MHA are already OP enough

[PG_LEJKaya]

This isn't too bad though as it doen't really help MHSF but could let their BE and Jack weapons tackle stealth.

[bouncymischa]

...every faction got to have some weakness somewhere. Your MHSF and MHA are already OP enough

Two model/units make a faction OP? I bet I could find two warcasters/units/solos in most other factions that are OP as well. Haley2, Bane Thralls, and Joe, anyone? :P

As for "every faction having a weakness", one could argue that Skorne's weakness in the past was "lacking strong ranged elements" and Legion's was "lacking in a way to make attacks magical", but then along came Domination models that have helped temper those weaknesses and provided increased options for the factions. So why is it okay to give other factions ways to overcome their weaknesses, but not the Retribution, hmm?

[Bully Bully Mahu]

This ability may not be as good as you think it is, but I have no problem with Retribution getting this - it has minimal synergy with you, since so many of your warjack weapons are already magical, and Vyros does a reasonable job of simulating Eyeless Sight himself, without being overpowered.

Eyeless sight on a single unit opens a lot of Ret's game but still doesn't make them overpowered. However, having some ranged solo assassination can shore up a lot of Ret's weaknesses. We still wouldn't have Stealth mitigation for whole units, so Shadowpack and Occultation would still be really good spells against us.

The magic weapon is a bonus, but consider this, giving MHA magic weapons if they have to go after an incomporial model, or Ghost Snipers being able to pick off Pistol Wraiths, or even the Rifle team benefiting from it.

This isn't asking for massed stealth mitigation, this is asking for a tactical option to allow us to handle a more varied number of opponents.

That arcanist not 'take this and have it follow your jack around' enough for you?

I won't argue that the Arcanist isn't fantastic, especially for his points, however, there is a pressing need for Ret, and this is it. I see it as no different then a Vassal of Menoth, because it is a solo in addition to your repair solo that you can take that provides very focused buffs.

And didn't ret just take a masters somewhere?

The best I have seen so far is qualifying for Lock and Load masters and promptly falling off the cliff due to some bad match-ups. Which, if you are a Ret player, is the single most frustrating thing about playing the faction.

[themocaw]

You know, if you really wanted that model, you wouldn't post your idea in the forums. PP could get into a lot of legal trouble if it can be proven that they're stealing ideas from their fans without compensation.

[Baffler]

I like it, although I am biased.

I don't think it's too powerful, since it is for a single model. It if was unit, then it'd be way too OP.

Might make some of our lesser played solos (like ghost snipers) more popular too.

Prob FA 1 would be about right.

[Blighted Tyrant]

Simple answer, play a different faction, but then again you'll probably find the one draw back to the faction. Demand a fix for it and then some one will suggest a change again and it will begin a perpetual cycle of crying, quitting and ultimately getting no where.

Alternatively, learn to play around it. Stop blaming your tools.

[PG_Deist]

Pretty sure Retribution won Smog con in the UK, and just won the Tier event at Lock n Load (5-0). Sorry, Retribution is competitive. Smogcon was also won before the Vyre kit came out....so you didn't need them to be competitive either.

[Auracco]

Since when does every faction have a way to deal with stealth? Troll, circle and minion have very little way to deal with stealth and they are not seen as uncompetitive for that (minion are not competitive for other reasons than that). Retribution has access to blast and spray, it's nothing comparable to legion but it's what they do so no problem there.

[quindraco]

You know, if you really wanted that model, you wouldn't post your idea in the forums. PP could get into a lot of legal trouble if it can be proven that they're stealing ideas from their fans without compensation.

Did you read NQ42? Check out the section on IKRPG spells.

Light in the Darkness:
All models* in CTL can ignore intervening models and terrain when determining LOS. Cost 2, RNG Self, AOE CTL, UP Yes.

Obviously it was modified for the new game system - we ignore lighting conditions for LOS on the tabletop - but I'm totally taking all the credit, and it would be more than a little silly for me to claim that something I put up on PP's forum for anyone to look at - in the section for sharing that sort of thing - doesn't constitute granting them permission.

[AJ the Ronin]

Eyeless sight Eiryss?



Edit: IMO what Retribution (why people don't call us Scyrah like they do with the Protectorate) needs are more Warcasters. After Gargantuan even minions as a whole will have more casters (ok locks but you catch my meaning) than Retribution.

[Draekon Darkstorm]

You realize that Guidance only works on a single model, not a unit.

Draekon

[Maou_Mint]

I'm not sure "Eyeless Sight" doled out to any single old model is what we need. Maybe a commanding solo for the Houseguard/Dawnguard who gives them Arcane Precision or something like that. It would certainly give the Destors a better reason to gain Dual shot. Something like Runewood.

Personally, I'd like a unit of regular mechanics along the lines of Cygnar and Khador's mechanic units. Maybe it's just the meta I'm in but I have fewer issues with stealth and a lot more issues with downed Field Generators and my mechanic solo having been electroleaped to death or killed by a stray AOE.

[bouncymischa]

Simple answer, play a different faction, but then again you'll probably find the one draw back to the faction. Demand a fix for it and then some one will suggest a change again and it will begin a perpetual cycle of crying, quitting and ultimately getting no where.

Alternatively, learn to play around it. Stop blaming your tools.

Pfft... aren't the faction forums littered with various "fix threads" and "wish lists"? How much did the Skorne faction complain about their lacklustre ranged game until the new Cyclops came along with Far Strike? The Khador players are still clamoring for a model to "fix" Man-O-Wars.

Since when does every faction have a way to deal with stealth? Troll, circle and minion have very little way to deal with stealth and they are not seen as uncompetitive for that (minion are not competitive for other reasons than that). Retribution has access to blast and spray, it's nothing comparable to legion but it's what they do so no problem there.

And how much of an emphasis do those factions placed on ranged attacks? It can be argued that much of Retribution's playstyle is based around combined arms, using ranged attacks to weaken an opponent before engaging them in melee, which a stealth-heavy army can prevent. I won't deny that Retribution does have answers to a variety of stealth issues, such as blast templates to deal with low-ARM stealth infantry and sprays to take care of Stealthed solos, but Stealthed battlegroups are a significant problem that Retribution doesn't currently have a means to overcome. A model like the OP suggested would be a way to help play to Retribution's strengths while not fully negating the advantages of their opponents, and likely create a more balanced game than currently exists.

[Spyde]

I would be ok with something that ignored Stealth.. If they didnt allow the unit to ignore LoS also.


Im sorry but..
16" Range with Snipe
Ignore spell buffs
Feat to boost to hit on all of them
+++Magic Weapon
+++ Ignore Stealth
Ignore LoS
spd 6 ? or 7

Talk about wanting easy mode for any caster that isnt arm 17+

Im hoping the new UA eiryss or w/e gives you anti stealth, but removes Ignore LoS at least.

[tuttleboy]

As a Ret player I'll have to say pass. Do you really want an ability that will let my phantom shot ROF 3 'jack to have eyeless sight, too? We already have units that ignore stealth. They are sentinels and halbardiers.

[Junn Khan]

Ooo, perhaps I should start a petition to give Skorne Beast Dives? Or perhaps give Makeda3 Blood of Kings?

[Bully Bully Mahu]

You know, if you really wanted that model, you wouldn't post your idea in the forums. PP could get into a lot of legal trouble if it can be proven that they're stealing ideas from their fans without compensation.

I doubt that is the case, but if it is, I would gladly sign any legal paper it takes for this model to get on the table.

Prob FA 1 would be about right.

I would be OK with this, though I can see FA 2 being perfectly fine as well.

Simple answer, play a different faction, but then again you'll probably find the one draw back to the faction. Demand a fix for it and then some one will suggest a change again and it will begin a perpetual cycle of crying, quitting and ultimately getting no where.

Not to flame bait or anything, but you should have probably checked my sig out before you suggest playing another faction. I don't complain about Khador or Skorne, especially after Domination gave me everything I felt Skorne was missing.

Alternatively, learn to play around it. Stop blaming your tools.

L2P is only an argument that goes so far. It is obvious that Ret is missing "something" that keeps them from making the top, this is what I feel they are missing.

Pretty sure Retribution won Smog con in the UK, and just won the Tier event at Lock n Load (5-0). Sorry, Retribution is competitive. Smogcon was also won before the Vyre kit came out....so you didn't need them to be competitive either.

Check the results: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewto...p?f=22&t=99142

See a lot of Ret placing high at Smogcon? If I read this correctly, they didn't do well at all.

You realize that Guidance only works on a single model, not a unit.

Which is why it is the perfect rule for Ret.

As a Ret player I'll have to say pass. Do you really want an ability that will let my phantom shot ROF 3 'jack to have eyeless sight, too? We already have units that ignore stealth. They are sentinels and halbardiers.

You mean the crazy POW 12 not really focus efficient Manticore? I can already shoot low POW shots with Kaelyssa, I don't see how the Manticore getting eyeless sight will be that broken.

Eyeless sight Eiryss?

I am OK with this because Shield Guard still exists. Be very hard to shoot Shadowpack off eLylith, plus it will be very hard to get Eiryss into position without a Ravagore shooting her off the table.

I literally can't think of a way Ret becomes OP if they have this, there are just way too many positives and too few negatives.

[PG_The Captain]

I won't deny that Retribution does have answers to a variety of stealth issues, such as blast templates to deal with low-ARM stealth infantry and sprays to take care of Stealthed solos, but Stealthed battlegroups are a significant problem that Retribution doesn't currently have a means to overcome.

Few factions can trivially overcome something like a stealthed battlegroup. Which is fine by me, because the three or so warcasters/warlocks who can do that pretty much rely on that stealth as an essential element of their strategy. Handing out two-point solos to grant Eyeless sight (not just stealth ignoring, but ignoring concealment, clouds and camouflage too) to some of the shootier factions takes a lot away from those who need Stealth to survive and who already have bad enough matchups. Which, by the way, includes some Retribution armies.

[paspinall]

what, Ret got 6th, with what actually amounts to only 3 factions above them, the 3 you will note that often are top of the lists, so I would say thats competative if they can manage it.

[Maou_Mint]

Just a reminder to folks that standings in major tournaments are more a statement of the skill of the participating players than of the faction's power levels as a whole.

[Chouraku]

A jack to the face always has, and always will be, an effective answer to stealth.

[Blighted Tyrant]

If you have no issues with Khador or Skorn that of course means Ret need to fixed...yeah ok I'll run with that idea and see how far it will get me. Nope.

Telling you to learn to play is exactly what needs to be done, because if Ret can place high in tournaments, have a bag of tricks just as big as other factions and still need help well I think it's more your issue than that of the faction.

[paspinall]

Just a reminder to folks that standings in major tournaments are more a statement of the skill of the participating players than of the faction's power levels as a whole.

To a degree yes of course, but by the same token it is often the same 3 factions seen at the top in tournies no matter who is playing so there is still some effect.

[bouncymischa]

Few factions can trivially overcome something like a stealthed battlegroup. Which is fine by me, because the three or so warcasters/warlocks who can do that pretty much rely on that stealth as an essential element of their strategy. Handing out two-point solos to grant Eyeless sight (not just stealth ignoring, but ignoring concealment, clouds and camouflage too) to some of the shootier factions takes a lot away from those who need Stealth to survive and who already have bad enough matchups. Which, by the way, includes some Retribution armies.

I'd argue that my Cygnar (Mage Sight with Siege is great for taking down stealthed heavies, or even the maligned Triumph) and Menoth (Menoth's sight on a Reckoner or the Battle Engine) can deal fairly efficiently with a Stealthed battlegroup. I don't see how Retribution getting a similar capability would be any more powerful than what those factions already possess.

[Jestor]

If they make this model for Scyrah then I will probably drop the faction as it will make them fairly high on the power curve. How many fully boosted POW 15's can your caster take to the face with zero way to ignore it? You can't hide behind models, in stealth or behind terrain, just eat it.

Yeah, I am sure your intentions were in the right place but you would need to add a caveat to that model that it can't be fielded with Kaelyssa or either Vyros.

If stealth is a major issue, take your melee centric list. I almost always bring a melee list to events. Why? You counter stealth by punching things in the face.

[bouncymischa]

If stealth is a major issue, take your melee centric list. I almost always bring a melee list to events. Why? You counter stealth by punching things in the face.

I'd be curious how well your melee list fares against a Lylyth2 list. Retribution currently has no effective melee response to a proper Lylyth2 list, as far as I know.

[PG_Deist]

Smogcon information was misled from Focus and Fury

2nd place Cancon
1st place Orccon
2nd place Central Coast Championship
1st place French Open

But your right...Ret can't win. Long story short, players win...not factions. If you take a close look, you see several of the same players placing in the top 3 consistently. Retribution, Cygnar, Mercs and Minions are not played by as many competitive players more on coincidence. They just chose to play other factions. It is certainly nothing that the other factions lack (when played as a whole for Mercs and Minions)

[PG_LunarSol]

I'd be curious how well your melee list fares against a Lylyth2 list. Retribution currently has no effective melee response to a proper Lylyth2 list, as far as I know.

In fairness, that's true of a ton of things in the game. That much ranged damage output from a stealthed battlegroup is a pretty warping effect on the game. Very few of the game's stealth negating options effect it at all.

[WithScience]

Completely subjectively: I really wish a piece like this existed, not because I think it would fix some sort of power imbalance with Ret, but because it would make Ret fun to play. I don't think Ret is underpowered; I don't know if they're a top tier faction, or if that's a real thing, but I do ok with them. I do think they're an incredibly frustrating faction to play.

It's the same thing as people freaking out over undead models not triggering living-model effects. Any time I can't use my models to do the cool stuff I wanted to, it's frustrating. With Retribution, whether or not my army works feels like it's 100% dependent on what my opponent brought. It's hard to get excited about how awesome the MHSF or Stormfall Archers are when it feels like I have to ask my opponent's permission before I use them. Personally, I eventually got so fed up with stealth that I switched factions, to Circle. My win/loss percentage with Circle still hasn't gotten to my Ret levels, but I actually like playing the game now.

If eyeless sight is over the top, how about just ignores stealth and magic weapon?

[Jestor]

I'd be curious how well your melee list fares against a Lylyth2 list. Retribution currently has no effective melee response to a proper Lylyth2 list, as far as I know.

I tried to enlighten some people last time it came up in the Ret forums but the group think is so deep on that forum that anything that might possibly be outside the box is shot down. Generally I park my caster behind an AFG. If they waste the feat on the AFG, I live while losing an AFG, if they waste the feat on the army, I still have a caster and an AFG.

I'm lucky, we only have one guy locally who plays Legion in tourneys, if he shows up, so does the AFG, if not, I leave it out and take a different list. Generally it's Kaelyssa, AFG and a Hydra daring Lyl to spend all her fury. The rest of the list is Sentinels with the UA, who Legion can't ignore because they will tear apart their beasts if they get there, full Halbs with UA to help the Sentinels get up field (run turn one, run turn two if I feat else shield wall and minifeat turn 2).

Now, when you have two units rolling through the front line to threaten those ranged beasts, the rest of your army can start to threaten zones. Force him to play your game, not the other way around.

Eyeless sight doesn't ignore models. Battle Engines can't be knocked down.

Normal stealth lists can be taken out in a similar fashion. Running to engage while covering your important peices with our cheap but effective Halberdiers. I own 3 units of them for a reason

[Jestor]

In reply to WithScience (you posted while I was writing)- Giving a faction with such devestating heavy jacks who can already ignore models intervening the ability to also ignore stealth is pretty huge. It would be a crutch model that would literally make every single list ever made. You would be crazy NOT to take it.

[Hasten]

If you have no issues with Khador or Skorn that of course means Ret need to fixed...yeah ok I'll run with that idea and see how far it will get me. Nope.

Telling you to learn to play is exactly what needs to be done, because if Ret can place high in tournaments, have a bag of tricks just as big as other factions and still need help well I think it's more your issue than that of the faction.

Hey, maybe we could grab hold of this thread's vitriol knob and turn it down a bit, eh?

Speaking as a Skorne player, Domination did indeed provide some extremely useful and much-needed ranged support. Really unlocked a lot of potential list variants besides the standard Gladiator + X melee heavy + Y melee heavy.

Perhaps more analogously, PP has indeed greatly expanded Legion's options for dealing with things like incorporeal models.

I don't see any reason why they couldn't do something similar with the Retribution. I don't know that guidance would be my first choice, as I think a 4-point light myrmidon that would provide some manner of stealth mitigation (e.g. let's say a Mage Sight analog to limit it to battlegroup models, place AOE 3 completely w/in 5") might be a more interesting way of doing it, but in general I like the idea of giving Retribution some means of paying points (opportunity cost) as Stealth insurance. The actual implementation doesn't necessarily have to be Guidance, but I personally have no problem with granting Retribution the opportunity to pay for that sort of tool.

The idea that factions must have some intrinsic weakness is holding less water with each release, in my opinion. It's not as if factions need an Achilles heel to be distinct. Skorne still plays like Skorne despite the new ranged offerings. Legion still plays like Legion despite being able to pay points for options that deal with incorporeal models.

That's my 2 cents, anyways.

-H

[PG_Sobek]

Edit: IMO what Retribution (why people don't call us Scyrah like they do with the Protectorate) needs are more Warcasters. After Gargantuan even minions as a whole will have more casters (ok locks but you catch my meaning) than Retribution.

This. 100%.

We don't need more stealth mitigation. Ah.... I remember the days when there was no such thing as stealth mitigation in the game. The only way to deal with stealth was to run up and punch it. The armies of the world must have gotten lazy since then. Sentinels to the face deals with Stealth just fine.

[Bully Bully Mahu]

In reply to WithScience (you posted while I was writing)- Giving a faction with such devestating heavy jacks who can already ignore models intervening the ability to also ignore stealth is pretty huge. It would be a crutch model that would literally make every single list ever made. You would be crazy NOT to take it.

I am fine with this interation, because it would only be a couple of shots (literally the FA of the proposed model) and you have to get around a few issues:

Armor Camping and Def Camping
Sitting on enough transfers
Shield Guard (which actually has hilarious interactions with Bird's eye)

Don't feel it would be overpowered at all, not anymore over powered then eLylith assassination runs.

[bouncymischa]

I'm lucky, we only have one guy locally who plays Legion in tourneys, if he shows up, so does the AFG, if not, I leave it out and take a different list. Generally it's Kaelyssa, AFG and a Hydra daring Lyl to spend all her fury. The rest of the list is Sentinels with the UA, who Legion can't ignore because they will tear apart their beasts if they get there, full Halbs with UA to help the Sentinels get up field (run turn one, run turn two if I feat else shield wall and minifeat turn 2).

Now, when you have two units rolling through the front line to threaten those ranged beasts, the rest of your army can start to threaten zones. Force him to play your game, not the other way around.

Hmmm, but how do you avoid losing your infantry to the feat? If you bunch up your models to use Defensive Line/Shield Wall, don't Ravagores just tear them apart with AOEs? And if you spread them out to avoid AOEs, wouldn't Striders just gun them down easily?

Once your army is gone, isn't the AFG something that can be destroyed at the Legion player's leisure? Or does it take long enough to give you the chance to win on scenario?

Also, is this at 35 or 50 points? I've found it hard to take the AFG at 35, although I'm usually taking both a Phoenix and Discordia with Kaelyssa at that level...