Petition to give Retribution of Scyrah "Guidance"!

[Jestor]

Don't feel it would be overpowered at all, not anymore over powered then eLylith assassination runs.

So no more overpowered then, arguably, the most powerful combination in the game.

No more overpowered then a list which excels at winning without thinking at all because the army self drives to victory.

Well noted :P

[Bully Bully Mahu]

So no more overpowered then, arguably, the most powerful combination in the game.

No more overpowered then a list which excels at winning without thinking at all because the army self drives to victory.

Well noted :P

My point is that it is yet something to plan for. eLylith can do it now, when I plan my Skorne, Khador, or Retribution lists, I have to plan around the fact that there is a way to get multiple POW 15s on my caster. Just like I have to plan around a unit that can hit my caster no matter where I am hiding and shoot me up with POW 10 bolts that ignore all my defensive measures.

Like any such trick, you will probably be able to do it once, and then your opponents will shift, and it will be far less impressive. How often do you get to do Ravyn Snipe + Feat = Dead caster? This is my point.

[FranzGrenstein]

I knew when I read the title of this thread there would be trouble.

So ret doesn't need this and ret doesn't need that, ret is perfect just the way it is and you need to learn to play ret...fine.

Maybe ret shouldn't get any other releases ever, because they are just too OVER POWERED if they got anything else.

[DoctorEvil]

........Maybe ret shouldn't get any other releases ever, because they are just too OVER POWERED if they got anything else.

I second that proposal

[Jestor]

Hmmm, but how do you avoid losing your infantry to the feat? If you bunch up your models to use Defensive Line/Shield Wall, don't Ravagores just tear them apart with AOEs? And if you spread them out to avoid AOEs, wouldn't Striders just gun them down easily?

Once your army is gone, isn't the AFG something that can be destroyed at the Legion player's leisure? Or does it take long enough to give you the chance to win on scenario?

Also, is this at 35 or 50 points? I've found it hard to take the AFG at 35, although I'm usually taking both a Phoenix and Discordia with Kaelyssa at that level...

Like I said, if I lose the infantry (and it won't be all of it) that means I am -

A - In position to kill eLyl because she is too far foward
B - In position to hold on scenario because she is too far away

Granted, I have seen eLyl from only a handful of metas and it has always been with more beasts then anything else (min two ravagores and a bolt thrower). I'm not sure how she is played everywhere. The best thing that happens is she feats to clear infantry. Now, her clearing 25+ infantry per turn is really tough. It's not like her feat gives them each 15 shots Now think that you can take 23+ melee infantry at 35 while still taking the AFG, a jack and an arcanist. Now play scenario. If she can't assassinate, she has issues with scenario.

[bouncymischa]

Like I said, if I lose the infantry (and it won't be all of it) that means I am -

A - In position to kill eLyl because she is too far foward
B - In position to hold on scenario because she is too far away

Granted, I have seen eLyl from only a handful of metas and it has always been with more beasts then anything else (min two ravagores and a bolt thrower). I'm not sure how she is played everywhere. The best thing that happens is she feats to clear infantry. Now, her clearing 25+ infantry per turn is really tough. It's not like her feat gives them each 15 shots Now think that you can take 23+ melee infantry at 35 while still taking the AFG, a jack and an arcanist. Now play scenario. If she can't assassinate, she has issues with scenario.

Hmmm... admittedly, I'm not terribly familiar with the standard Lylyth2 tournament lists, but from what I've heard at 35 points you could probably expect something like 2 Ravagores, 1+ Bolt Thrower, and 2 units of Striders?

I guess it would depend on positioning -- obviously even in Shield Wall/Defensive Line, you should have something like 4 (or more) blocks of each of your units, so 8 total, and the Ravagores can only put out 4 shots total on her feat turn. Striders are likely stuck going for lucky shots, then, so you could probably get half of your infantry in, depending on how far back she is.

How successful have you been with scenarios like Gauntlet, where the control zones require you to basically be on the enemy's side of the table to gain CPs? Those seem like the ones Lylyth2 would shine at, as you can't hang back to just get you CPs and win on scenario.

[PPS_Charles]

Ret has ways of dealing with stealth... Guidance isn't needed in the faction. Learn how to use destors mha Skeryth Issyen or look for options. Ret has speed built into everything it has no need to ignore stealth.

[PG_LunarSol]

My point is that it is yet something to plan for. eLylith can do it now, when I plan my Skorne, Khador, or Retribution lists, I have to plan around the fact that there is a way to get multiple POW 15s on my caster. Just like I have to plan around a unit that can hit my caster no matter where I am hiding and shoot me up with POW 10 bolts that ignore all my defensive measures.

Like any such trick, you will probably be able to do it once, and then your opponents will shift, and it will be far less impressive. How often do you get to do Ravyn Snipe + Feat = Dead caster? This is my point.

Lylyth2 is a game warping caster. This is absolutely not something the game needs more of.

[Jestor]

My point is that it is yet something to plan for. eLylith can do it now,

Negative, she can not do it now. She has zero ways to ignore interveening models. That's my point that you just aren't getting. Ignoring interveening models (phantom hunter and bird's eye) is really powerful. Now add on ignoring stealth and it becomes like Eyeless Sight on crack

Bouncy - I have been lucky in scenario draw in the three times I used this and got center control scenarios. Scenarios that force you to be on the other side of the board are admitedly harder. It's not a perfect answer. All it does is forces eLyl to actually play the game instead of autowinning because she knocks down your covering model and shoots your caster in the face. There is no strategy against her that is foolproof by any means.

eLyl is not the only stealth in the game. She is a unique condition. My typical melee centric lists still have something like MHSF or Invictors that are a flexible piece that shoot and melee. Full (or nearly full) stealth armies that are not named eLyl are usually set up for melee or to tie you up in melee while you get spell assassinated. Ret has some really good melee peice's to counter this kind of an army. Are we going to attrition out as well as Menoth? Nope. Are we going to grind in, look for the opening and use our extremely awesome flex peice's to do some serious hurt? Absolutely.

[Hasten]

Ret has ways of dealing with stealth... Guidance isn't needed in the faction. Learn how to use destors mha Skeryth Issyen or look for options. Ret has speed built into everything it has no need to ignore stealth.

Frankly, Skorne didn't need more ranged options. They were fairly competitive before Domination. I'm definitely having more fun with the faction though now that I have additional tools!

So, side-tracking a little bit from the main discussion (i.e. Guidance), is it stealth mitigation in general that people are finding objectionable, or Eyeless Sight on-demand?

How would you feel about something like a 4-point light myrmidon that had an ability allowing you to spend one focus during its activation for a Stealth-removing aura in, say, a 5" bubble around it? That way it's both a significant point investment, and something you have a better chance of dealing with as the Stealth player.

-H

[Jestor]

How would you feel about something like a 4-point light myrmidon that had an ability allowing you to spend one focus during its activation for a Stealth-removing aura in, say, a 5" bubble around it? That way it's both a significant point investment, and something you have a better chance of dealing with as the Stealth player.

While I think the stealth problems are over stated I also think this solution is much less drastic as the other solution. It would be a useful peice but not terrible broken. Of course, PP would probably give it permanent 4" reach to nullify it's power

[Warlordtheft]

As a Ret player I'll have to say pass. Do you really want an ability that will let my phantom shot ROF 3 'jack to have eyeless sight, too? We already have units that ignore stealth. They are sentinels and halbardiers.

And anything with an AOE...remember stealth means auto-miss at 5" or more not unable to target. Sprays ignore stealth too.

[Hasten]

Of course, PP would probably give it permanent 4" reach to nullify it's power

You sound like a Skorne player =P

-H

[Murkhadh]

Pretty sure Retribution won Smog con in the UK, and just won the Tier event at Lock n Load (5-0). Sorry, Retribution is competitive. Smogcon was also won before the Vyre kit came out....so you didn't need them to be competitive either.

When you read the guy that won smogcon's battle rep, he mentioned that he saw his one opponent was playing legion and was really worried because he figured the legion player had lylth. To his surprise the player didn't have lylth.

So this player played great games, but he also got a little lucky with matchups. Other factions don't' have to pray that they don't run into one caster or its an auto lose. which is the purpose of this thread.

Having said that, I think this request is silly. We don't need this to beat Lylyth, I think eVyros is going to answer that problem just fine.

I doubt they are ever going to give us eyeless sight, we already ignore enough rules.

This may be a useful thread for the OP.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ounter-Stealth

[Chip]

Maybe ret shouldn't get any other releases ever, because they are just too OVER POWERED if they got anything else.

You know, that'd be awesome. After the next book, PP could totally say that Ret is a limited release faction that'll just get the occasional merc and I'd be fine with that - I'm yet to be convinced we need anything else. Or that Halberdiers aren't a valid answer to stealth.

Epic Lylyth may be rough on Ret, but she's hard on most things - I do think Hyperion will be the start of her not being near as good against us, though...

[Auracco]

Epic Lylyth may be rough on Ret, but she's hard on most things - I do think Hyperion will be the start of her not being near as good against us, though...

^Epic Lylyth is not only rough on Ret she is rough on most faction in the game, some casters can deal with her (Feora, Strakhov, Barnabas) but most other casters will have a hard time, as soon as her ravagore can get los you caster is going to get shot by a lot of high pow shot that ignore stealth and defensive buff if the legion player brought a naga. The stealth battlegroup is not only problematic to Retribution, it's rough for everyone.

[Murkhadh]

Lylyth has her bad matchups like anyone else, ret just doesn't have any of them.

[Jestor]

Lylyth has her bad matchups like anyone else, ret just doesn't have any of them.

Borka Windwall brick anyone?

[PG_TheEmu]

Post here whether or not you agree, but here is the proposal.

Give Ret a 2 point model (character or not is up to PP) that has the following rule:

Guidance (★Action) - Range 5", if the target friendly faction model is in range, it gains Eyeless Sight and all its weapons are magical for one turn.

If it looks familiar, it is a rule on the Skorne Extoller Soulward. The solo can be a totally different type of solo from the Extoller Soulward.

Please PP, give us our own "Vassal of Menoth", and let it have this rule. It would single handily make Retribution the competitive faction it needs to be.

Can I haz this for Trollbloods then too, as I struggle with stealth quite often?

[Murkhadh]

Can I haz this for Trollbloods then too, as I struggle with stealth quite often?

rofl, well played

[Cannotcope]

I still like my idea of a Jack (probably heavy) with Arcane Precision (aim to ignore stealth) and a ROF 1 ranged weapon with the special ability Tracer: Models in this model's battlegroup may ignore stealth when targeting a model hit by this weapon. Tracer lasts one turn. (wording may need to be more clearly written to work as intended)

This would help with stealthed battlegroups somewhat, without being a total counter. Opponent's could counter this jack by tying it up in melee(and/or kill it) or by boosting their DEF to make the initial tracer shot (and any subsequent shots benefiting from tracer) have a harder time hitting. Stacks only moderately with Phantom Hunter (Kaelyssa would need to hotswap it spending precious focus to get more than one model to benefit). Doesn't benefit MHSF or Eiryss, so focus camping and DEF camping still helps. Also doesn't stop transfers. Probably requires at least one focus on the "tracer" jack to boost the attack roll (cause missing would ruin your further shots), so there's also a focus investment beyond what you plan to put into any other jacks planning to shoot. Unless you take multiples of this jack (I'm assuming non-character) then you'll still only be shooting up one enemy target at a time, while ignoring stealth.

Sadly, I worry that Murphy's law states that any idea I think might be good and interesting will never make it to print because I posted it...

[MediumYellow]

The op never mentioned an ability that would give an entire MHSF anti-stealth tech. He mentioned the ability to give a single model eyeless sight. So at best we put it on eiryss2 and knock off shadow pack.

Ret already has ways of dealing with stealthed infantry like kayazy. The real issue is that elylyth beats our entire faction, 9-1.

Honestly though, if we got this solo, the whole entre matchup would rely around whether shadow pack got knocked off or eiryss2 got killed.

This could be a solution but I don't think this is desirable.

Retribution is a great faction, it just needs more warcasters in my opinion not a new piece of tech.

EDIT: The post's above idea is actually really good.

[MikeC103]

As a fellow angry elf/druid/pig, I woulnd't mind Ret getting that. I"m just waiting to see what the next version of Eiyrss will give us. After I see her stats and abilities, I'll go back to complaining about what we don't have.

[Hashmal]

If they make this model for Scyrah then I will probably drop the faction as it will make them fairly high on the power curve. How many fully boosted POW 15's can your caster take to the face with zero way to ignore it? You can't hide behind models, in stealth or behind terrain, just eat it.

You are aware that with Rhoven and Sevy2, I can already do this, yes? At RAT7 too. Last I heard, Sevy2 wasn't exactly tearing up the tourney circuit.

[Bakemono]

Post here whether or not you agree, but here is the proposal.

Give Ret a 2 point model (character or not is up to PP) that has the following rule:

Guidance (★Action) - Range 5", if the target friendly faction model is in range, it gains Eyeless Sight and all its weapons are magical for one turn.

If it looks familiar, it is a rule on the Skorne Extoller Soulward. The solo can be a totally different type of solo from the Extoller Soulward.

Please PP, give us our own "Vassal of Menoth", and let it have this rule. It would single handily make Retribution the competitive faction it needs to be.

Big Negative from me. The Retribution are supposed to have trouble with Stealth. Giving them another tool to bypass that is a bad idea.

[AJ the Ronin]

Can I haz this for Trollbloods then too, as I struggle with stealth quite often?

As soon as we get a Wind Wall caster


Really. More casters. Casters enhance the gaming experience, the army and may even change a unit/solo/jack playstyle. Look at eVryos and how he is making Gorgons and Hydras better.

I think once Retribution is at double digits in the caster department all this complaining will fade*













*some.

[Hasten]

Big Negative from me. The Retribution are supposed to have trouble with Stealth. Giving them another tool to bypass that is a bad idea.

Err... who says? The fact that they have few Stealth mitigation tools so far doesn't mean they can't get such tools in the future. Witness the previously mentioned Legion and Skorne, just for two examples.

-H

[ReaVeD]

I with you guys on more casters. Sure we have fewer points than other factions have, but only with casters is the difference so big. We have half the warcasters other warmachine factions have! Hordes are a little behind on warmachine (still 4 warlocks ahead of Ret!), but PP announced that they will catch up a bit in new books. How is that fair?

As for the solo idea, i don't consider it good. It's just some desperate idea, not a tacting to hang on worth betting your battle plan on.

[bouncymischa]

Borka Windwall brick anyone?

Of course, now that Legion has access to Magical Weapons, I suspect Wind Wall isn't as much of an issue.

But then, it could just be that Privateer feels that Legion should have no weaknesses, unlike Retribution. :P

[PG_LunarSol]

I with you guys on more casters. Sure we have fewer points than other factions have, but only with casters is the difference so big. We have half the warcasters other warmachine factions have! Hordes are a little behind on warmachine (still 4 warlocks ahead of Ret!), but PP announced that they will catch up a bit in new books. How is that fair?

As for the solo idea, i don't consider it good. It's just some desperate idea, not a tacting to hang on worth betting your battle plan on.

Hordes isn't getting any catch up on casters. The 6 announced casters are all that's going to be in Gargantuans.

[Gho5t]

You know, that'd be awesome. After the next book, PP could totally say that Ret is a limited release faction that'll just get the occasional merc and I'd be fine with that - I'm yet to be convinced we need anything else. Or that Halberdiers aren't a valid answer to stealth.

Epic Lylyth may be rough on Ret, but she's hard on most things - I do think Hyperion will be the start of her not being near as good against us, though...

One problem with trying to run and engage eLyl in melee is she's probably trying to hide in forests. Until eVyros was spoiled, we didn't have a way to give units Pathfinder and engage her, and then we get picked off. Hopefully, we'll be able to do better with the Colossals releases.

Whoever suggested we learn to use Destors to counter Shadow Pack... Really? You probably don't play Retribution.

Hordes isn't getting any catch up on casters. The 6 announced casters are all that's going to be in Gargantuans.

After getting 2 instead of 1 in Domination? Plus they're getting 2 instead of 1 in this book?

Perhaps instead of allowing Phantom Hunter and Eyeless Sight to be stackable, you could make the suggested ability an upkeepable spell, so you have to choose one of the other. Bird's Eye still makes it strong, though. Instead of Eyeless Sight, I think just True Sight would be acceptable for this proposition.

[bouncymischa]

Perhaps instead of allowing Phantom Hunter and Eyeless Sight to be stackable, you could make the suggested ability an upkeepable spell, so you have to choose one of the other. Bird's Eye still makes it strong, though. Instead of Eyeless Sight, I think just True Sight would be acceptable for this proposition.

Given the issues people have brought up with Phantom Hunter/Bird's Eye, I'm wondering if Mage Sight wouldn't be the best solution. It would have to be on a new warcaster (but we'll get one anyways), and it's still battlegroup-only so MHSF can't benefit from it. (It also forces the warcaster to be potentially dangerously close to their target to benefit from it...)

[PG_LunarSol]

After getting 2 instead of 1 in Domination? Plus they're getting 2 instead of 1 in this book?

Each Hordes faction is only getting 1 new warlock in the next book:

Grim2
Lylyth3
Makaeda3
Morganna2

Except Minions who are getting both a new pig and new gator.

[Gho5t]

Each Hordes faction is only getting 1 new warlock in the next book:

Grim2
Lylyth3
Makaeda3
Morganna2

Except Minions who are getting both a new pig and new gator.

Still, 14 vs. 11 is better than 14 vs. 7, but that is still better than 14 vs. 3, I suppose.

[Calcifar]

It makes me somewhat sad that there are quite a few troll answers to this thread.


I think stealth mitigation in such a form would actually be justified for this faction for the following reasoning :


When you look at how Scyrah's army is designed, you will notice a few things -

- All Jacks have a ranged weapon attached to themselves, sport below average melee power and above average point cost.

- The majority of units are ranged- based, hybrid units are expensive in cost.

- The faction lacks tools to melee- attrition on the same level as melee- centric factions (menoth, khador, skorne, trolls)


The problem is simply put, that currently Ret is no half and no whole. It is build like a dedicated ranged faction, yet without the tools to properly bring this playstyle through.
There are currently 3 Ranged- centric factions in Warmahordes, Cygnar, Ret and Legion. Out of these 3, Ret relies just as much on their ranged but they are the only faction which cant apply it when they need to.
Ret players are forced to play towards ranged, since there are not Warjacks without guns and those guns make these warjacks more expensive or weaker in melee.

This in turn can make the faction feel extremely frustrating, since so many lists are totally countered by heavy stealth and many match ups are almost auto- lose or a hard uphill-battle.

Nobody was asking for MHSF to ignore stealth, that would be bonkers. What Ret players are asking for is Battlegroup - stealth- mitigation or similiar stuff.

Seriously, stealth cuts this factions power almost in half, especially the warjacks but also most units.


I truly dont see a reason to deny Ret stealth mitigation.

[Murkhadh]

I truly dont see a reason to deny Ret stealth mitigation.

The reason is we already have enough special rules and things we ignore, adding stealth to the mix would break us.

[PG_LunarSol]

Still, 14 vs. 11 is better than 14 vs. 7, but that is still better than 14 vs. 3, I suppose.

I'm not arguing that Ret shouldn't get more casters. I'm just clarifying that Gargantuans isn't narrowing the gap. Nothing more.

[Calcifar]

The reason is we already have enough special rules and things we ignore, adding stealth to the mix would break us.

Why so ? Because of the MHSf ? Because that is one of the few things unique to this faction. Cygnar has got arguably stronger jacks, certainly stronger in range but also dedicated melee beaters. They also have access to weapon masters, bonkers casters and focus support. What does Ret have, which would make them broken, once stealth mitigation is added ? Really it isnt like Ret is already kickin butts left and right. Legio nwas doing this pre- magic weapon buff, yet they still got that issue fixed.

[AJ the Ronin]

Why so ? Because of the MHSf ?

Is the whole package.

From the unit that is RAT 6 POW 12, can CRA and re-roll failed CRA shots, to the unit with a bunch of AoE at POW 12 and one of them at 3D6 base RGN 12 all the way to the 'jacks that with their range attack will slam you, move you, burn you or shot 3 times.

The more vanilla shots on Retribution are from the Houseguard Rifleman (that can CRA in melee), the Gorgon gun and the Ghost Sniper (that can score 3 damage without rolling).


Everything that shoots in Ret is powerful as it is.

We may, at some point, get a model that, like Kaelyssa, by itself ignores stealth. This I don't doubt.

A model that allow other model/s to ignore stealth? Doubt it.

He have more chances to get stuff like Pathfinder and Deflection that will help our stuff to get faster to the stuff that has stealth.


Oh, yeah. Warcasters

[MetalStorm]

Honestly I would rather upkeep hate then stealth mitigation. The only thing that really irks me is Shadowpack and Occultation, all I'd want is a solo with a wide range upkeep remover or a caster with Purification which as well as being fluffy would help with shadowpack/occultation without screwing over natural stealth stuff that Ret can really already handle pretty well.