Petition to give Retribution of Scyrah "Guidance"!

[Indy]

The solution that us Ret players have been waiting for is coming soon...

HYPERION SMASH!

[moorg]

The OP needs to get real.

Protectorate players learnt long long ago, that if you have AOE's, you don't need to ignore Stealth.

Guess what? Retribution has AOE's. Use them.

[PG_kerensky]

If I had such a model, I'd probably use it but most likely with eEiryss or the AFG.

Personally, is rather a new warcaster with purification. Quick, easy occultation/shadowpack removal.

[Northern Ronin]

This rule would need to be on a caster to be fair (and even then, it's likely got to be a bad caster otherwise). Ret out shoots a whole lot, and stealth is the only good way to stop them from just shooting every faction off the table. Without fearing for shadowpack, they can just always take a shooting list and never really need to worry about getting shut down. Iron Flesh? Meh. D-Ward? Meh. Chior? Meh. Stealth? Meh.

[Jestor]

You are aware that with Rhoven and Sevy2, I can already do this, yes? At RAT7 too. Last I heard, Sevy2 wasn't exactly tearing up the tourney circuit.

How does he get jacks to ignore stealth? I am missing some key peice of the pie here.

[Trygle]

How does he get jacks to ignore stealth? I am missing some key peice of the pie here.

He gives them the ability to ignore stealth and some other things.

No one ever uses him because that is all they do and Protectorate never did that much shooting anyways, because the way they deal with stealth is by kicking *** in Menoth's name. They also don't have the MHSF, so they were allowed to have him do that.

[RetributionBomb]

You know, that'd be awesome. After the next book, PP could totally say that Ret is a limited release faction that'll just get the occasional merc and I'd be fine with that - I'm yet to be convinced we need anything else. Or that Halberdiers aren't a valid answer to stealth.

Epic Lylyth may be rough on Ret, but she's hard on most things - I do think Hyperion will be the start of her not being near as good against us, though...

Im pretty sure a lot of Retribution players would flip if that happened. I know I would considering I've spent a lot of money on Retribution knowing that PP planned to support them as a full faction.

Also everyone advocates using AoEs to deal with stealth. Have you people actually used mass AoEs in a Tournament setting? The Timed Turns and Deathclock do not lend themselves to spending time scattering AoEs.

[Gho5t]

The OP needs to get real.

Protectorate players learnt long long ago, that if you have AOE's, you don't need to ignore Stealth.

Guess what? Retribution has AOE's. Use them.

The primary point of discussion here is Ret's inability to deal with Shadow Pack, particularly from eLylyth. A lot of deviating AOEs at POW 6-8 aren't going to bring down a heavy warbeast in a turn, perhaps not even three turns.

And again, the OP understands that MHSF ignore a lot as it is, which is why he proposes something for Ret BG only.
Besides that, Legion has Eyeless Sight and then got Shadow Pack. Not only do they ignore a lot of LOS rules, but then you can't shoot them while they blast and arrow you to pieces. We have a unit that ignores LOS but not stealth, but the proposition isn't to allow that group to gain any kind of stealth mitigation on top of Phantom Seeker.

[moorg]

Have you people actually used mass AoEs in a Tournament setting?

Yup.

Feora2, bonded Redeemer, double Vanquisher, and top it off with double Vassal for Ancillary Attack madness.

It's one of my standard list templates.

A lot of deviating AOEs at POW 6-8 aren't going to bring down a heavy warbeast in a turn, perhaps not even three turns.

If that's how you're trying to use them, you're doing it wrong.

They clear a path for your extremely mobile heavy hitters to get though and wreck the big stuff and/or Caster/Warlock up close and personal. It's Protectorate 101 from waaaaay back in MKI, and the skills are easily transferable.

[Rogue Sun]

Yup.

Feora2, bonded Redeemer, double Vanquisher, and top it off with double Vassal for Ancillary Attack madness.

It's one of my standard list templates.



If that's how you're trying to use them, you're doing it wrong.

They clear a path for your extremely mobile heavy hitters to get though and wreck the big stuff and/or Caster/Warlock up close and personal. It's Protectorate 101 from waaaaay back in MKI, and the skills are easily transferable.

I understand what you're saying, but we don't really have extremely mobile heavy hitters. We have heavy hitters (Sentinels) that are SPD 5. We have extremely mobile (Destors) who are PS 13. We have jacks that in theory are both, but then you realize that at MAT 6 and no means of being focus effecient at all they usually only get one or two solid hits in and then are spent.

All that being said, stealth really no longer bothers me with Retribution. I've learned to adapt and when I see stealth I shrug and kill them.

What does bother me is that we have 7 warcasters and have been out nearly two years longer than Minions who will soon have more Warlocks than Ret.

[Lachlan the Mad]

Other armies have to worry about stealth.

Lololololololol

[Calcifar]

The OP needs to get real.

Protectorate players learnt long long ago, that if you have AOE's, you don't need to ignore Stealth.

Guess what? Retribution has AOE's. Use them.

This reads as if you didnt read the thread at all, congratulations.


" Dude! Us amazing melee attrition faction players learned long ago to ignore stealth, why cant you with your miriad of ranged pieces which you rely on ?
Silly Ret players need to Learn to play ! "

[ReaVeD]

Yup.

Feora2, bonded Redeemer, double Vanquisher, and top it off with double Vassal for Ancillary Attack madness.

It's one of my standard list templates.



If that's how you're trying to use them, you're doing it wrong.

They clear a path for your extremely mobile heavy hitters to get though and wreck the big stuff and/or Caster/Warlock up close and personal. It's Protectorate 101 from waaaaay back in MKI, and the skills are easily transferable.

There's one thing missing from the equation - Choir. Sure, for PoM eLylyth isn't an issue it's actually her bad metchup so i'm not expectiong you to understand cause you have a different point of view. Ret can't put Passage and Enliven on their jacks and then just run it in scenario and wait until they come to us, Ret doesn't have Errants with Self Scarifice with tough form Piper and book for no knockdown, Ret has not Defenders Ward and so on. In general Ret is much more easily killed than PoM. Maybe the Razorblades will bring some new helpful stuff to the table.

Hordes isn't getting any catch up on casters. The 6 announced casters are all that's going to be in Gargantuans.

On the presentation from L&L PP said that Hordes have been behind up till now and they will try to mitigate that. I must have misnderstood.
Regards

[Scottl1]

Eyeless sight is obnoxious and I don't see how eyeless sight with ignoring intervening models would be any better.. Just because something is broke doesn't mean you need to outdo the previous otherwise I want Gaspy2's feat, blood hag and such unerrated, mark 1 vengenace, etc back. I mean if it aint broke lets go all in and wreck house!

[Murkhadh]

Im pretty sure a lot of Retribution players would flip if that happened. I know I would considering I've spent a lot of money on Retribution knowing that PP planned to support them as a full faction.

Also everyone advocates using AoEs to deal with stealth. Have you people actually used mass AoEs in a Tournament setting? The Timed Turns and Deathclock do not lend themselves to spending time scattering AoEs.

I can get 8 stormfall aoe's scattered and the rest of my army activated in a 7 minute turn with time to spare, its not that hard. Its even easier in deathclock. If you can't do this, you don't know your army well enough.

[Murkhadh]

All that being said, stealth really no longer bothers me with Retribution. I've learned to adapt and when I see stealth I shrug and kill them.

What does bother me is that we have 7 warcasters and have been out nearly two years longer than Minions who will soon have more Warlocks than Ret.

<applause>

this

10 chars

[katadder]

What does bother me is that we have 7 warcasters and have been out nearly two years longer than Minions who will soon have more Warlocks than Ret.

well minions are actually 2 mini factions that cannot be in the same army so will only have 4 locks each.

and whilst hordes factions have 11 casters 3 of them are epics reducing you to a maximum 8 in one game (although seeing all 8 in one game would be awesome)

[Jestor]

He gives them the ability to ignore stealth and some other things.

No one ever uses him because that is all they do and Protectorate never did that much shooting anyways, because the way they deal with stealth is by kicking *** in Menoth's name. They also don't have the MHSF, so they were allowed to have him do that.

I was actually missing the Rhoven part. Now that it is morning and I'm not tired and reread his post to figure it out, I see where I messed up. Why aren't Protectorate dominating with the combo? They have 1 caster who allows people to ignore models, we have 3 out of 7. Now figure in all our guns are magical attacks and, all of the sudden, it becomes a way to deal with anything, at anytime, period. They are also not dominating with it because they don't have the tools to strip away transfers and people just aren't taking that hugely threatening combo.

With Kaelyssa with True Sight taking off all the fury from eLyl (assume Lyl spent fury to cast shadowpack) and then a jack ignoring her stealth and hitting her with a POW 15 from 17 inches away and you get a dead caster who gets no defense. It's a different story in our faction then it is in Menoth.

[bouncymischa]

With Kaelyssa with True Sight taking off all the fury from eLyl (assume Lyl spent fury to cast shadowpack) and then a jack ignoring her stealth and hitting her with a POW 15 from 17 inches away and you get a dead caster who gets no defense. It's a different story in our faction then it is in Menoth.

Although your scenario seems to rely on the Lylyth2 player being stupid (casting shadowpack against an opponent that can ignore stealth)...

EDIT: I can't help but wonder now how Lylyth2 deals with Siege, who can attack her from 14" away ignoring Stealth and terrain. X3

[Murkhadh]

Although your scenario seems to rely on the Lylyth2 player being stupid (casting shadowpack against an opponent that can ignore stealth)...

EDIT: I can't help but wonder now how Lylyth2 deals with Siege, who can attack her from 14" away ignoring Stealth and terrain. X3

Siege is an okay match for her he just to be careful not too get himself killed getting close enough to drop mage site

[x3tsniper]

So, this thread seems to be, why cant we roll a elylyth list? >.> You are clearly crossing the board to slowly sir. /thread.

[Jestor]

Bouncy - If she doesn't, then she gets shot by more then two models since the OP has suggested that this model would only buff one model. If Kae is stripping 3, boosting 3 times to hit you are looking at a natural armor of what? 16 on her? POW 12? 21 damage without a good roll? Now, she didn't cast shadow pack so I am hitting her with how many other shots? She still dies. Think about it, she still needs to cast that spell or die against most Scyrah armies. Even with it she will die if you have that extra shot or two that can tag her other then Kae. Kae is a decent match up against her because she can strip fury and use it to boost her damage. With the model the OP suggested she would wreck house against MOST casters. Especially those who rely on Stealth.

[Murkhadh]

So, this thread seems to be, why cant we roll a elylyth list? >.> You are clearly crossing the board to slowly sir. /thread.

I'm really thinking eVyros is going to handle elylyth, I can have destors in her face turn one, and she kills one thing and i have a destor engaging somethings that haven't shot yet.

[Fortnby]

I'd much rather see Circle/and other factions get something like this:

Druid of Orboros Decoy (UA)
weapon attachment 1 pt

Smelly-Hippy-Sandals: (*Action) - Eyeless Sight is NA vs this unit. Lasts one round.


And a Caster or two get a spell like this:

Fog of Nature: 3 points
While within this model's control (or Command) area friendly model's Cover, Concealment, Camouflage and Stealth are not negated by Eyeless Sight.

[bouncymischa]

Siege is an okay match for her he just to be careful not too get himself killed getting close enough to drop mage site

I'm not even sure he needs Mage Sight -- Ground Pounder can reach her from 14" away and ignores both Stealth and Terrain, if I remember correctly. (I glanced at Siege's rules this morning and as near as I could tell LOS wasn't necessary.)

So, this thread seems to be, why cant we roll a elylyth list? >.> You are clearly crossing the board to slowly sir. /thread.

I can't help but think that if the problem was that easily solved, then there honestly wouldn't be as many people complaining about it. Right now I'm picturing a sample tournament game, so the two sides are starting 31" apart. Let's say it's a Distant scenario, like Gauntlet, so the Lylyth2 player has no reason to move more than 6" beyond their deployment zone. How does the Retribution player get there fast enough to engage, while maintaining enough of their army against the gunline to fight on an even footing?

Vyros2 brings extremely fast Destors in tier, as Murkadh pointed out, and it may be a good jamming list in general so more than just an "anti-Lylyth2" list. But taking the faction as it existed before Hyperion and Vyros2 (both of which seem reasonable counters to Lylyth2) it looks more difficult. Destors are generally considered lucklustre, as most cavalry are (although I've had some reasonable success with them in Styker2 lists). Halberdiers can move up 12" each turn at most, and that's forgoing Shield Wall, which leaves them vulnerable to Striders. In Shield Wall, with the UA and Reform they can move 9", but that's still 3 turns to cross the 31" on the board. Sentinels can run and take advantage of Vengeance moves, so a potential 13" per turn... still more than 2 turns to cross 31". In the meantime, Striders are firing 20 shots per turn, and Lylyth's battlegroup can dish out another 5 shots, 10 on feat turn. I can't help but think it looks quite difficult to accomplish.

On the other hand, if a ranged option exists, so that you can snipe at Lylyth2's force without having to move all the way across the board, then the situation changes, which I suspect is why some players would like some measure of ranged anti-stealth in Retribution.

Bouncy - If she doesn't, then she gets shot by more then two models since the OP has suggested that this model would only buff one model. If Kae is stripping 3, boosting 3 times to hit you are looking at a natural armor of what? 16 on her? POW 12? 21 damage without a good roll? Now, she didn't cast shadow pack so I am hitting her with how many other shots? She still dies. Think about it, she still needs to cast that spell or die against most Scyrah armies. Even with it she will die if you have that extra shot or two that can tag her other then Kae. Kae is a decent match up against her because she can strip fury and use it to boost her damage. With the model the OP suggested she would wreck house against MOST casters. Especially those who rely on Stealth.

I'm not entirely sure about this. Over the course of the discussion I've realized that models that can do what you describe already exist -- both Kaelyssa and Siege can attack enemy warcasters/warlocks ignoring both Stealth and terrain, and yet the metagame doesn't seem horribly warped by it. I suppose this could be due in part to the fact that they're both warcasters, and getting them that close to the enemy means they're in easy range of retaliation. I suppose extending that same ability to another single model in the army (and given that Phantom Hunter can be put on at most two models per turn, by cycling the upkeep, and depending on FA restrictions any Stealth-ignoring ability would likely only be avaible to one other than Kaelyssa) would offer a certain advantage in that the model would be on the sharp end, rather than Kaelyssa herself. But I'm not sure if any of the available myrmidons could one-shot a warlock, aside from perhaps Hyperion.

Your Kaelyssa army tactic does seem intruiging, and I'd be curious to see the actual list sometime -- it sounds fairly similar to my own Kaelyssa list, although I've typically fielded MHSF instead of Halberdiers, and I'm not certain whether they'd be as survivable or not. I can't help but think it isn't a true counter to Lylyth2, though, as it just doesn't seem fast enough to deal with Distant scenarios and the like, and I can't help but think you'd lose too much of your army in situations where your AFG couldn't sit back and get CPs.

On the other hand, Hyperion and Vyros2 do seem to provide potential answers to Lylyth2 even in Distant scenarios, so it'll be interesting to see if their arrival helps quiet the desire for more anti-Stealth ranged otpions.

[FranzGrenstein]

Can I haz this for Trollbloods then too, as I struggle with stealth quite often?

Ways, Trollbloods mitigate stealth:
Grim's goggles + 13/13 gun + farstrike(snipe)= dead solo (bye-bye tartersauce, hello, dead banes in melee)
Grim's Marked for death
Scatter gunners (they are maligned, but itd a unit of spays)
2 boostable pow8 4" AOEs
KSB UA ability

Ret's stealth mitigaion:
Kae's goggles+ 12/10 gun= dead paper armor solos and units
Discordia's spray 10 (Ret's only spray)
A host of pow 6 3" AOE's
1 unboostable 4" AOE pow 8
Coming this fall...1 boostable 5" AOE pow 9


Moorg isn't Roven the same thing the OP is arguing for? Only without the choir turning that Reckoner more fantastic.

[Khador247]

My answer to the OP is...no freakin way! Retribution's shooting is potent enough. If you want magical ranged weapons take Aiyana & Holt. That's what I have to do with Khador. If you want to ignore stealth...well then you're screwed. What you really need is more access to spray attacks. I don't want you to get Eyeless Sight though. That rule is too good.

[Murkhadh]

I'm not even sure he needs Mage Sight -- Ground Pounder can reach her from 14" away and ignores both Stealth and Terrain, if I remember correctly. (I glanced at Siege's rules this morning and as near as I could tell LOS wasn't necessary.)

Ground pounder is one attack, she is hordes there exists something called transfers.

Siege can use mage sight and his feat to rip her beasts to shreds.

[wargrim]

Ret's stealth mitigaion:
Kae's goggles+ 12/10 gun= dead paper armor solos and units
Discordia's spray 10 (Ret's only spray)
A host of pow 6 3" AOE's
1 unboostable 4" AOE pow 8
Coming this fall...1 boostable 5" AOE pow 9

Some things you forgot to mention:

Kae's gun with ROF3, killing heavier solos with more shots or with her POW12/13 spells
Kaes POW7 AOE4, boostable
Ravyn's and Vyros POW7 AOE3, boostable
Discordia isn't Rets only spray, theres Skarath too
Some boostable POW7 AOE3 blasts
Deamon if there is a non-stealth enemy-model near

[FranzGrenstein]

My answer to the OP is...no freakin way! Retribution's shooting is potent enough. If you want magical ranged weapons take Aiyana & Holt. That's what I have to do with Khador. If you want to ignore stealth...well then you're screwed. What you really need is more access to spray attacks. I don't want you to get Eyeless Sight though. That rule is too good.

I would love a unit of sprays, problem is after Ravyn's others would scream from the moutain tops "over powered."

[Jestor]

Bouncy - It's not an auto win, it's just a strategy to make her play the game. The reason it is more potent with the proposed model is because you have more then one model making those attacks. With just Siege or just Kaelyssa it becomes less potent (though Kae's 3 shots that strip fury are a bigger deal then Siege's one shot that doesn't). With the over the top range 17 pow 15 guns we can take coupled with the inability to transfer or block any sort of line of sight it becomes a much better combo then I think the OP would have intended.

[PG_TheEmu]

Ways, Trollbloods mitigate stealth:
Grim's goggles + 13/13 gun + farstrike(snipe)= dead solo (bye-bye tartersauce, hello, dead banes in melee)
Grim's Marked for death
Scatter gunners (they are maligned, but itd a unit of spays)
2 boostable pow8 4" AOEs
KSB UA ability

Ret's stealth mitigaion:
Kae's goggles+ 12/10 gun= dead paper armor solos and units
Discordia's spray 10 (Ret's only spray)
A host of pow 6 3" AOE's
1 unboostable 4" AOE pow 8
Coming this fall...1 boostable 5" AOE pow 9

Sooo, both factions have one caster to deal with stealth fairly well, one heavy to deal with stealth fairly well and a unit to deal with stealth. Yeah, Stormfall Archers have trouble with higher armor but likewise Scattergunners have trouble with higher defense. KSB UA and Retri BE (that's the 4" pow8 AOE, right?) seems kinda cornercase scenarios; KSB is always so far back behind rest of the army to get real benefit and the cricket might want to do the other shot types too.

So, both factions have quite the same tools against stealth, right? Or that was your message's point, right?

[bouncymischa]

Bouncy - It's not an auto win, it's just a strategy to make her play the game. The reason it is more potent with the proposed model is because you have more then one model making those attacks. With just Siege or just Kaelyssa it becomes less potent (though Kae's 3 shots that strip fury are a bigger deal then Siege's one shot that doesn't). With the over the top range 17 pow 15 guns we can take coupled with the inability to transfer or block any sort of line of sight it becomes a much better combo then I think the OP would have intended.

I know it's not auto-win, but it still looks like an auto-lose in certain situations. If melee units simply can't survive to reach Lylyth, then what is the solution, particularly given that in a competitive environment you can't afford to take options that would be weak in other situations (like cavalry)? Admittedly, it still remains to be seen if Hyperion and Vyros2 are options that can hold their own against other lists.

I'm also not sure what has a RNG 17 POW 15 profile -- the Hydra is the closest, capable of reaching RNG 15 and POW 15, but that's a 21" threat if it moves, not 17" threat... The Banshee, maybe? I thought it's gun was RNG 10... Besides, with RAT 5 you need an 11 just to hit Lylyth (50% odds), and none of them prevent transferring. X3

[Jestor]

AFG sitting still gives the Hydra range 17. If Kaelyssa is stripping Fury you can't transfer because you have no fury. Do you get it now?

[bouncymischa]

AFG sitting still gives the Hydra range 17. If Kaelyssa is stripping Fury you can't transfer because you have no fury. Do you get it now?

Ahhh, I see. Although doesn't the fact that the AFG is sitting still to aim mean the Hydra's area of effectiveness is limited? As long as Lylyth stays more than 17" from it, she's relatively safe. Not to mention that to strip Lylyth's fury, Kaelyssa needs to get within 12", which should be more than close enough for Ravagores to vaporize her...

[Hasten]

<Troll vs Ret Stealth Mitigation Tools>
...
So, both factions have quite the same tools against stealth, right? Or that was your message's point, right?

It does look pretty comparable to me. I think one key difference though is that the Trollbloods generally speaking do melee attrition better than does the Retribution, and thus are less prone to depend on their ranged elements to even the tables.

Not that anyone has an easy against a Lylyth2 gunline =).

-H

[FranzGrenstein]

Some things you forgot to mention:

Kae's gun with ROF3, killing heavier solos with more shots or with her POW12/13 spells
Kaes POW7 AOE4, boostable
Ravyn's and Vyros POW7 AOE3, boostable
Discordia isn't Rets only spray, theres Skarath too
Some boostable POW7 AOE3 blasts
Deamon if there is a non-stealth enemy-model near

Shall we go in to this, cool.
Yes, Kae's gun is ROF 3, so if you are buying and boosting damage (if you hit) you are spending 5 focus on a 7 focus caster which leaves her 2 focus for upkeeps, and running her jacks.

You are right I forgot about rift. My bad.

I think if you look at pV and Ravyn's nukes are pow12 that would make their AOEs pow6. (BTW I can think of better things to do with their focus than these nukes, also if you a casting these w/o an arcnode things have already gone sideways.) BTW you for got about Rahn's nuke that produces 2 AOEs (they are pow 6 as well.)

Technically Discodia is the only spray in Ret, since Skarith is not a patisan. But for the sake of argument lets say it is. D&S are the worst of the minor warcasters, she has no weapon and dies to a stiff wind; when she goes, he goes. Question how often do trolls and circle (?) field them?

If you look closer you will find the bulk of rets 3" AOEs pow 6; so they can be boosted if the target is in Ozzy's feat, putting Ozzy in the "danger zone." You had also better pray for good to hit dice, since you are going to need artillerist to reliably hit (BTW I am NOT asking for an artillerist model.)

Let me define near within 2" inches, so I am depending on my opponents stupitdity since the gun triggers on enemy models.

[Bully Bully Mahu]

Ahhh, I see. Although doesn't the fact that the AFG is sitting still to aim mean the Hydra's area of effectiveness is limited? As long as Lylyth stays more than 17" from it, she's relatively safe. Not to mention that to strip Lylyth's fury, Kaelyssa needs to get within 12", which should be more than close enough for Ravagores to vaporize her...

That was my feeling of the matter. All Lylith does is just stay back and let her army do the work for her. She has no reason to move forward against Kaelyssa because K can be sitting on Banishing Ward to stave off Pincushion.

I have played Kaelyssa versus eLilith before, many times, usually, it devolves into Ravagors getting to Kaelyssa before she can even start shooting her gun at eLylith.

I still disagree that having this model will make the faction OP. What you describe takes a lot of set up, and hopes that Kaelyssa still lives long enough to threaten Lylith herself, and that Lylith isn't smart and hasn't just used her feat to kill your Hydra.

However, if we do get this model, here is what happens.

Garryth, Blade of Retribution - Can Gallows Legion beasts from further away, and possibily set up charges to take out a beast before the feat turn.

Kaelyssa, Night's Whisper - Can take advantage of Phantom hunter and this to snipe a single model more effectively.

Lord Arcanist Ossyan - Can actually do things with his gun against Legion beasts, or allow Hypnos to make the shooting from a Ravagor less effective. He can eyeless sight the Battle Engine, feat, and put a pretty good amount of damage on a beast. While Quickening a unit to hopfully finish it off or at the very least engage it.

Ravyn, Eternal Light - Possibilities are endless, but all revolve around a single Jack. A Deamon with Snipe would have a pretty decent chance of taking out Legion's support staff, or can make a pretty good play at Striders.

Adeptis Rahn - Can TK Legion beasts closer which allows the melee models to stand a better chance of closing that gap. Also would allow him to play a little more forward with a little ARM camping, Force Barrier, and hopefully some cover to keep him safe from Ravagors that can't stand still to aim.



Yes, I understand that the best answers to stealth is axe to face. Like I have said, my whole reason for petitioning for this, is that it gives us tactical options to handle bad match-ups. It still requires actually tactics and game play to apply. I feel this is the perfect rule, because of how limited it is.

Also, we all forget to mention that solos can be killed.

[Jestor]

Since when does Lyl have a 20"+ shot? If she is so far back she isn't shooting then you have already won

[Lord Sessadore]

Since when does Lyl have a 20"+ shot? If she is so far back she isn't shooting then you have already won

Why can't she just sit back and let the range 14/18 Ravagores do the shooting? Which is really what she should be doing, instead of exposing herself to Kae.