Petition to give Retribution of Scyrah "Guidance"!

[FranzGrenstein]

Sooo, both factions have one caster to deal with stealth fairly well, one heavy to deal with stealth fairly well and a unit to deal with stealth. Yeah, Stormfall Archers have trouble with higher armor but likewise Scattergunners have trouble with higher defense. KSB UA and Retri BE (that's the 4" pow8 AOE, right?) seems kinda cornercase scenarios; KSB is always so far back behind rest of the army to get real benefit and the cricket might want to do the other shot types too.

So, both factions have quite the same tools against stealth, right? Or that was your message's point, right?

This is where you and I disagree: Kae adequately deals with stealth, Grim is fantastic.
A 17/13 is better than 12/10, so we have compared the guns how about Marked for Death...

Stormfalls are at the whim of the scatter dice, pray you hit, pray you damage with 4 AOEs. Scatgunner's have 6 shots needing 7's to hit banes with a pow 12. OK equivalent

KSB UA cornercase...ok equivalent

Where is your bomber equivalency?

That was to put more clarity on differance.

I agree with Hasten, trolls are better suited to deal with stealth because they are more geared to axe to mouth. Granted the PP seems to be moving trolls to a more ranged centric faction in the released after MK2.

[Jestor]

And when the Ravagore's are doing the heavy lifting like that is when the proper application of axe to face with the melee portion of the list comes in. As I have said, the ravagore's can't shoot everything in my list every turn. At 35 points I'm putting 30+ models on the field. If they are so far away they can never be charged then you will lose on scenario. It's not perfect but it forces the eLyl player to play the game instead of autowinning.

I'm kind of getting tired of the circle around. Try it, don't try it. I don't honestly care. eLyl is no more tough for Scyrah then she is for any other faction. We don't have any more issues then half the armies in the game when it comes to stealth. The main issue exists between models and chair where people take nothing but 14 units of MHSF and wonder why Rayven snipe feat go doesn't work in 100% of the cases for Scyrah

[moorg]

What does bother me is that we have 7 warcasters and have been out nearly two years longer than Minions who will soon have more Warlocks than Ret.

Yeah, I guess that's a kick in the nuts.

This reads as if you didnt read the thread at all, congratulations.


" Dude! Us amazing melee attrition faction players learned long ago to ignore stealth, why cant you with your miriad of ranged pieces which you rely on ?
Silly Ret players need to Learn to play ! "

I don't think you're reading the same thread I am.

I said we learnt to cope with what we had back in MKI, and didn't cry about what we didn't have. This was before many pieces you're familiar with existed.

There's one thing missing from the equation - Choir. Sure, for PoM eLylyth isn't an issue it's actually her bad metchup so i'm not expectiong you to understand cause you have a different point of view. Ret can't put Passage and Enliven on their jacks and then just run it in scenario and wait until they come to us, Ret doesn't have Errants with Self Scarifice with tough form Piper and book for no knockdown, Ret has not Defenders Ward and so on. In general Ret is much more easily killed than PoM. Maybe the Razorblades will bring some new helpful stuff to the table.

Again, before any of that stuff existed... except maybe Rupert. And he's buffing the Zealots. Because in early MKI, it was all about the Zealots.

Your faction hasn't existed for very long. Maximise what you have now, learning from all the armies that came before. You've got the benefit of hindsight. We didn't have jack in the beginning either. Just be glad that you're getting a lot less chaff, and more choice pieces from design, because they've got a lot less wiggle room playing catch up. And they've also got the hindsight.

[Gho5t]

Why can't she just sit back and let the range 14/18 Ravagores do the shooting? Which is really what she should be doing, instead of exposing herself to Kae.

Agreed. If eLyl is going to be getting in close to Kae, it's probably to try and kill her on feat turn, and she'll be going first. Then Ravagores are going to move in (presumably, they're closer to Kae than eLyl was, otherwise, wth were you doing with them?) and finish Kae off. Oops, Kae never got to shoot eLyl (big surprise).

The proposal to bring Kae to solve problems isn't a terribly strong one, as there is still the problem of "how do the units survive against Ravagores, Striders, and possibly Raptors?" Kae is one model, and she certainly isn't going to take down a whole Shadow Pack list by herself.

The more I think of the OP's suggestion, the more I think it's balanced. It's only on one model. Except for possibly Hyperion, Ret myrmidons aren't really going to be one-shotting Legion Shadow Pack models. Even a Hydra is only one shot at POW 15. It's not breaking the game, even if that one model is in a Kaelyssa list with Phantom Hunter. A Manticore has the highest ROF for our myrms (standard ROF is 1), but it's only POW 12 and RAT 6. It's going to need to boost to hit, so at most it'll get two shots and only one boosted damage. It could take down eLyl, but that just forces some strategy on the Lyl player.

[WithScience]

So, here's my question: what would it take to make stealth mitigation in Ret not op? And don't say it is impossible; that's silly. If not guidance on a 2 pt solo, how about on a 4 point one? A character solo? A 13 point character jack? A colossal?

Putting it on a warcaster would fix the synergy with Ravyn. You could also give the model animosity Ravyn.

What if the ability required the spotter to have LOS to the target (worded such that intervening models would block it)? Or both models? Or if you could ignore cover/concealment OR stealth, but not both? Or it could just ignore stealth, not cover?

[PG_Sobek]

So, here's my question: what would it take to make stealth mitigation in Ret not op?

Well, for a start it would need to be built inherently into a model. NOT be able to be granted to another model in the army.

[Jestor]

I would say for it to not be in battelgroup. Phantom Hunter/Bird's Eye + Magic Weapons across the board + Ignoring Stealth inside of Retribution would be too powerful in my eyes.

[AJ the Ronin]

Well, for a start it would need to be built inherently into a model. NOT be able to be granted to another model in the army.

This.

Then I can see a UA that allows a unit to ignore stealth for one round as a mini feat.

[Hasten]

Well, for a start it would need to be built inherently into a model. NOT be able to be granted to another model in the army.

That's not the only way to do it, I don't think. My previous suggestion earlier in the thread (4-ish point light myrm, spend focus for a 5" bubble of stealth mitigation) would sidestep the entire concern about Phantom Hunter/Birds Eye Hydra shots to Stealth Casters. Then it becomes a tactical decision of when and where to use it, because you'll almost certainly be losing it on the following turn. And a 4-point insurance policy is pricey.

I don't think that would even approach broken, frankly, and would be an interesting "combined arms" approach.

-H

[FranzGrenstein]

This.

Then I can see a UA that allows a unit to ignore stealth for one round as a mini feat.

No offense, but I can hear the screams of "doom" and "OP" when someone gets shot with a rat 7 boosted pow 12 from 16" away; or a pow 20 18" away while engaged.

[wargrim]

Well, if you really want something that gives the ability for other models to mitigate stealth, a 2-3 point (depending on its other abilities) solo with guidance is a good way. It affects only one model, one part of it (the minor part) is wasted on myrmidons. And it's a nice way to integrate the augurs, which normally support the house guard on their patrols.

Or a shyell jack that has a force field with the targeting flare option.

Or a new caster with mage sight.

Or moar melee, because axes and swords don't care for stealth.

[bouncymischa]

And when the Ravagore's are doing the heavy lifting like that is when the proper application of axe to face with the melee portion of the list comes in. As I have said, the ravagore's can't shoot everything in my list every turn. At 35 points I'm putting 30+ models on the field. If they are so far away they can never be charged then you will lose on scenario. It's not perfect but it forces the eLyl player to play the game instead of autowinning.

I'm kind of getting tired of the circle around. Try it, don't try it. I don't honestly care. eLyl is no more tough for Scyrah then she is for any other faction. We don't have any more issues then half the armies in the game when it comes to stealth. The main issue exists between models and chair where people take nothing but 14 units of MHSF and wonder why Rayven snipe feat go doesn't work in 100% of the cases for Scyrah

Most of my questions are because I'm actually quite curious how well your list will fare -- as I've said before, Hyperion and Vyros2 both bring possible anti-Lylyth2 options, and your Kaelyssa list sounds somewhat similar to my own, so I'm curious about how well it does. But I can see some very glaring weaknesses in it, so I'm interested in how you would try to overcome them.

As I said, in a Distant scenario -- or any scenario where you have to cross to the opponent's side of the board to gain CPs, like the Objective scenarios -- your strategy seems to suffer because you can't hang back with the AFG and force Lylyth forwards. I also don't really see how you can have 30+ models in a 35 point list -- the AFG is 10 points, so even if all of your warjack points go into something like a Sphinx, then you still only have 25 points for infantry. Full Sentinels + UA and full Halberdiers + UA is 20 points, leaving you insufficient points to reach 30 models. The only way I can see you doing it is by dropping both UAs to fit in an extra unit of Halberdiers, but then you're sacrificing Vengeance moves and the Halberdier mini-feat. On top of that, Lylyth's battlegroup should be able to kill around 15 infantry over the course of 2 turns (feat turn + normal turn), which doesn't leave you much to use against her, especially if she's running 20 Striders on top of her battlegroup (which should be feasible in 35 points).

In the end, I still feel the best answer to a gunline is ranged units of your own, as it's always possible to set up a situation where melee-only units can get decimated before they reach the target. Even in Steamroller, as I said, you have Distant and Objective scenarios which can permit this. But a Stealthed gunline is pretty much immune to ranged attacks, unless there's certain anti-Stealth benefits, which various factions do already have. I can understand the concerns that Phantom Hunter + anti-Stealth can be a problem, but there are already a few different ways to achieve this, so I can't help but wonder if those concerns aren't being overstated. On top of that, I still haven't seen a convincing answer for how a melee-based Retribution army can put enough pressure on Lylyth2 in scenarios where she doesn't have to advance to the middle of the table. So I remain skeptical.

So, here's my question: what would it take to make stealth mitigation in Ret not op?

Given the concerns that have been brought up, I suspect the most viable options are either:

a) Give some form of anti-Stealth to a unit that can't benefit from Phantom Hunter. The most likely options would either be an alternate Houseguard Rifleman UA, or a Stormfall UA. Arcane Precision would be a good way to do it, since then it forces the unit to decide between mobility and being able to target Stealth models.

b) Mage Sight. Since Phantom Hunter can only be given to models in Kaelyssa's battlegroup, a new warcaster with Mage Sight could give anti-Stealth to their battlegroup without having it overlap with Phantom Hunter, even in 100 point games.

[AJ the Ronin]

No offense, but I can hear the screams of "doom" and "OP" when someone gets shot with a rat 7 boosted pow 12 from 16" away; or a pow 20 18" away while engaged.

If they have the UA that allows them to ignore stealth with a mini feat they can't have the UA that allows them to CRA in melee.

Heck if Eiryss3 allows the MHSF to ignore stealth that that unit will be needing LOS.

Remember only one Unit Attachment per unit

[Khador247]

If the MHSF gets to ignore stealth I will be screaming "BROKEN!!!" from the mountain tops. That unit does enough already.

[Hansel]

Yeah, the day that Privateer makes a rule or a model because of freaking online petition is the day I lose all respect. Are you serious, OP?

[Murkhadh]

Yeah, the day that Privateer makes a rule or a model because of freaking online petition is the day I lose all respect. Are you serious, OP?

Where is the like button.

[AJ the Ronin]

Yeah, the day that Privateer makes a rule or a model because of freaking online petition is the day I lose all respect. Are you serious, OP?

The ATGM UA? Because I remember threads like this (but about Cryx) in the Cygnar forums back in the day.

[Panzeh]

I don't think it's a particularly interesting way of going about this problem. Giving it to one model won't change the eLylyth matchup but it will prove to be a no-brainer in many situations. I'd rather see something on one of the existing less-used units, particularly, the houseguard rifles which are currently rather lackluster.

[FranzGrenstein]

If the MHSF gets to ignore stealth I will be screaming "BROKEN!!!" from the mountain tops. That unit does enough already.

What the OP is proposing is one model in the MHSF unit, one stormfall archer, or one jack gets to ignore stealth.

AJ I forgot about the UA on HR, I don't use them enough. Still 18" pow 20...

[bouncymischa]

Yeah, the day that Privateer makes a rule or a model because of freaking online petition is the day I lose all respect. Are you serious, OP?

I lost all respect when Privateer caved into the whiners who posted petitions asking them to make digital rulebooks! :P At least they haven't caved in to the petitions to make Rhul it's own faction...

[Jestor]

Bouncy - She can't have 20 striders as they are FA 2 and only 6 models per unit. My typical list is 27 models, sorry I rounded it to 30. I don't know how they are killing 15 points of infantry with their battlegroup and staying untouchable against you. I would suggest looking in to spacing your models appropriately.

[bouncymischa]

Bouncy - She can't have 20 striders as they are FA 2 and only 6 models per unit. My typical list is 27 models, sorry I rounded it to 30. I don't know how they are killing 15 points of infantry with their battlegroup and staying untouchable against you. I would suggest looking in to spacing your models appropriately.

Oh, they are? It's been a while since I looked at the Legion book. I guess it's the archers that can be a max unit, then, although if I remember they lack Stealth. Hmmm, so what do Legion players fill out their remaining points with? I'm guessing the Striders are around 6 points a piece, so that's 12... warbeasts around typically around 16 points... I guess Fury management?

And it's not 15 points, I was guessing at 15 models. 3 warbeasts (2 Ravagores and a Bolt Thrower) plus Lylyth's own ROF 2 means they should be able to kill 5 infantry per turn, and feat turn increases that to 9. So if you feat first, you can kill 9 models at 16" to 18" (outside of any infantry unit's ability to run), with another 5 the next turn after they run to try and close.

I suppose by that point they'd have killed the Halberdiers off and a few of the Sentinels, meaning the rest would get Vengeance moves and a chance to attack. After Lylyth and the Bolt Thrower picked off some Halberdiers from Shield Wall, though, the others would be vulnerable to the Striders, so I'd guess you probably survive with only half of your Sentinels unit. I guess it becomes a question of whether or not the Striders can tie up the Sentinels long enough for them to finish getting picked off...?

I suppose one question is -- do you run your infantry in Shield Wall/Defensive Line? The Ravagores would seem to be more effective against those kinds of clumps, although I can't remember if they cause continuous effects innately or not.

[Scottl1]

Ravagore's animus makes the shot have con fire. Striders are 6 and 9 with UA. Strider deathstalkers, raptors, anyssa, striders, ravagores, teraph, one shredder(for tenacity), bolt thrower, and a forsaken to help with managing the ravagores fury. Those are the typical pieces in a lylyth list.

[AJ the Ronin]

What the OP is proposing is one model in the MHSF unit, one stormfall archer, or one jack gets to ignore stealth.

AJ I forgot about the UA on HR, I don't use them enough. Still 18" pow 20...

Honestly, I would be more worried about Invictors ignoring stealth (mid RAT with CRA, High ARM, High POW) that Riflemen.



I think Cygnar can pull the POW 20 RGN absurd with Long Gunners and Lynch AoE....then again it has being a while since I last face the B.13 on the table and longer since I last use them.

[FranzGrenstein]

I think the ability is called fire beacon, thing is they can do that pow 20 shot twice a turn. If you really want to get sick, the swan player will run a ranger within 5" of the target.

But yeah I think Invictors would be more scary, with what you propose.

[AJ the Ronin]

Yet the only thing people can think we we talk about anti-stealth is the MHSF.

[Jestor]

I suppose one question is -- do you run your infantry in Shield Wall/Defensive Line? The Ravagores would seem to be more effective against those kinds of clumps, although I can't remember if they cause continuous effects innately or not.

Nope. I try and get them so only two are ever hit by one template until a couple die. Then I space out so only one gets hit by the template. Everything is shooting at 12+ POW so shieldwall and Defensive are pretty moot. Now, remember, they only shoot 14" and the Halberds have a melee tie up range of 14". Sentinels are 15" if you kill one.

Everblight goes first. They move up, they have to in order to hold zone right? Kill box and all they are at 12"+ up field. They have made zero shots. Halberds run so they are 22" up field. That means there is 14" seperating them. Now Everblight shoots. They can't really back off. Perhaps they start screening with the infantry they brought (if they brought any, my guess is they didn't because that's what the guys around here do). Now turn 2 you are dug in on the infantry screen with the Halberds or you are real close to engaging the beasts. You have lost 6(?) guys? Perhaps he feated last turn. The problem with that is he needs to advance to get multiple targets in range unless I am a mongoloid.

You see where this is going? We are picking the worst case scenario here. A distant scenario. Turn 2 the AFG is crossing the center line and holding anything except a distant scenario. Where are you putting your fire? Are you focusing on the infantry? Are you focusing on the AFG and Hydra? Do you feat turn 2 (that's what usually happens) for the snipe and retreat? Do you take out enough dudes that the Scyrah player can't get a CP on the bottom of 2?

Like I said, play it. I don't have a "set list" I use. Some times I use Battle Mages or Mage Hunter Assassins or Narn. A lot depends on what I have in my case that day. Make a list and try it out. I am sure some local legionite will be excited to hear you WANT to play against eLyl

[Gho5t]

Nope. I try and get them so only two are ever hit by one template until a couple die. Then I space out so only one gets hit by the template. Everything is shooting at 12+ POW so shieldwall and Defensive are pretty moot. Now, remember, they only shoot 14" and the Halberds have a melee tie up range of 14". Sentinels are 15" if you kill one.

Everblight goes first. They move up, they have to in order to hold zone right? Kill box and all they are at 12"+ up field. They have made zero shots. Halberds run so they are 22" up field. That means there is 14" seperating them. Now Everblight shoots. They can't really back off. Perhaps they start screening with the infantry they brought (if they brought any, my guess is they didn't because that's what the guys around here do). Now turn 2 you are dug in on the infantry screen with the Halberds or you are real close to engaging the beasts. You have lost 6(?) guys? Perhaps he feated last turn. The problem with that is he needs to advance to get multiple targets in range unless I am a mongoloid.

You see where this is going? We are picking the worst case scenario here. A distant scenario. Turn 2 the AFG is crossing the center line and holding anything except a distant scenario. Where are you putting your fire? Are you focusing on the infantry? Are you focusing on the AFG and Hydra? Do you feat turn 2 (that's what usually happens) for the snipe and retreat? Do you take out enough dudes that the Scyrah player can't get a CP on the bottom of 2?

Like I said, play it. I don't have a "set list" I use. Some times I use Battle Mages or Mage Hunter Assassins or Narn. A lot depends on what I have in my case that day. Make a list and try it out. I am sure some local legionite will be excited to hear you WANT to play against eLyl

How do you only lose 6 guys? What are the Striders doing? My gut tells me more than half of the unit should be dead since you just served them up.

[Grimm]

Nope. I try and get them so only two are ever hit by one template until a couple die. Then I space out so only one gets hit by the template. Everything is shooting at 12+ POW so shieldwall and Defensive are pretty moot. Now, remember, they only shoot 14" and the Halberds have a melee tie up range of 14". Sentinels are 15" if you kill one.

Everblight goes first. They move up, they have to in order to hold zone right? Kill box and all they are at 12"+ up field. They have made zero shots. Halberds run so they are 22" up field. That means there is 14" seperating them. Now Everblight shoots. They can't really back off. Perhaps they start screening with the infantry they brought (if they brought any, my guess is they didn't because that's what the guys around here do). Now turn 2 you are dug in on the infantry screen with the Halberds or you are real close to engaging the beasts. You have lost 6(?) guys? Perhaps he feated last turn. The problem with that is he needs to advance to get multiple targets in range unless I am a mongoloid.

You see where this is going? We are picking the worst case scenario here. A distant scenario. Turn 2 the AFG is crossing the center line and holding anything except a distant scenario. Where are you putting your fire? Are you focusing on the infantry? Are you focusing on the AFG and Hydra? Do you feat turn 2 (that's what usually happens) for the snipe and retreat? Do you take out enough dudes that the Scyrah player can't get a CP on the bottom of 2?

Like I said, play it. I don't have a "set list" I use. Some times I use Battle Mages or Mage Hunter Assassins or Narn. A lot depends on what I have in my case that day. Make a list and try it out. I am sure some local legionite will be excited to hear you WANT to play against eLyl

You can get another 3" per turn if you take the UA for the Halberds.

[Rogue Sun]

well minions are actually 2 mini factions that cannot be in the same army so will only have 4 locks each.

and whilst hordes factions have 11 casters 3 of them are epics reducing you to a maximum 8 in one game (although seeing all 8 in one game would be awesome)

Well Minions may be 2 different sub factions, but seeing as you can go to a tournament and play both Gators and Pigs then no, they do note count as separate armies.

Also, seeing that different incarnations of casters are starkly different from each other, often only sharing a similar name, then there are in fact 14 warcasters for the main four WM factions.

[Gho5t]

You can get another 3" per turn if you take the UA for the Halberds.

Not if they ran. At least that's the ruling that was handed to me by a judge in a SR2012...

[x3tsniper]

Reform is something you do after your action if I remember correctly, but when you run you don't take an action.

[Jestor]

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...147#post453147

Can't reform and run.

Ghost - Models miss on occasion. How many shots are you taking? I know peoples dice are good but, at 35 points, you only get so many attacks on the table once you start taking several heavies. Like I said, my opponents usually have a Seraph and possibly an Angelius as well. All depends on the situation. I can not possibly cover every single possible situation is every single possible post I put on a message board. It's unrealistic to even think I can.

[nathrax]

So no more overpowered then, arguably, the most powerful combination in the game.

No more overpowered then a list which excels at winning without thinking at all because the army self drives to victory.

Well noted :P

QFT /10 char

[Gho5t]

Models miss on occasion. How many shots are you taking? I know peoples dice are good but, at 35 points, you only get so many attacks on the table once you start taking several heavies. Like I said, my opponents usually have a Seraph and possibly an Angelius as well. All depends on the situation. I can not possibly cover every single possible situation is every single possible post I put on a message board. It's unrealistic to even think I can.

It seems pretty popular to bring 2 Ravagores and a Bolt Thrower with eLyl, and Striders seem to tag along, too. eLyl can Pin Cushion the unit unless Banishing Ward is on them. Then she can take down up to 4 of them herself.

If Pin Cushion is up, the rest of the BG will likely kill one each off of feat turn depending on how things are clumped up, bringing the total to at least 7. Then the Striders activate, killing up to 8 more, since they won't need to CRA with PC up. Obviously, this is more than the entire unit, including UA.

If Pin Cushion is not up, misses become more realistic. The Striders will probably do 2-man CRAs, killing no more than 4, plus 4 from eLyl (her RAT is solid). That's already more than 6 kills based on average rolls and the 'beasts haven't been taken into account yet, nor any additional models in the list.

[Jestor]

So a unit with 7 shots kills 8 models. Well noted. After all that they can then all shoot next turn as well because we are in a vacuum where all range are always in range and covering control points without ever getting tied up.

[Scottl1]

So a unit with 7 shots kills 8 models. Well noted. After all that they can then all shoot next turn as well because we are in a vacuum where all range are always in range and covering control points without ever getting tied up.

He said 8 since the striders would not need a cra. That would be 8 shots if the strider squad had a UA. Though I think that is some serious wishful thinking. I have to agree that this talking in vacuum only presents the scenario to best describe the point trying to be made not reality.

[Gho5t]

He said 8 since the striders would not need a cra. That would be 8 shots if the strider squad had a UA. Though I think that is some serious wishful thinking. I have to agree that this talking in vacuum only presents the scenario to best describe the point trying to be made not reality.

This deduction was made based on the scenario presented; that the Halberdiers would be within 14" of the BG at the end of turn 1. Striders are Spd 6 or 7 and RNG is at least 10". They should be able to get a good number of the unit in range even if they're off on a flank a bit. The BG just needs to step forward and fire.

[Scottl1]

Stiders are spd 7 range 12. If this discussion is to continue it seems more ret players should read the loe book since there is a lot of well loe does this sorta kinda maybe. It discredits any points that MIGHT be valid. Ravagore is spd 6 range 14 aoe 3. He is also rat 5 so if he doesnt aim he needs a 7. That means at best they might kill 1 if directly hit and 2 if they're base to base while rolling a 12 to kill the first and an 8 on the second(assuming not directly hit). Directly hit he'd need average to kill the first and 8 on the second due to blast.

Thats no different then if the ravagore shoots my banes, stormblades, or any other medium armored infantry. Lets face it ravagores are a pain in the *** for every faction to deal with. But math says that the ravagores are the biggest threat aside from lylyth on her feat turn. Even on her feat turn pow 10 striders will not decimate your army and if they cra then they kill 1-3 at best. That's not any worse then ecaine does alone on feat turn.

You wanna see a sad lylyth, make her play scenario like the one with the tiny objective bar down the middle. lol There is a reason tournaments play scenario so you don't have elylyth, egaspy and those sort of casters being annoying or more annoying as it were.

[Driver]

I would prefer a caster with mage sight :-)