Petition to give Retribution of Scyrah "Guidance"!

[Gho5t]

Stiders are spd 7 range 12. If this discussion is to continue it seems more ret players should read the loe book since there is a lot of well loe does this sorta kinda maybe. It discredits any points that MIGHT be valid. Ravagore is spd 6 range 14 aoe 3. He is also rat 5 so if he doesnt aim he needs a 7. That means at best they might kill 1 if directly hit and 2 if they're base to base while rolling a 12 to kill the first and an 8 on the second(assuming not directly hit). Directly hit he'd need average to kill the first and 8 on the second due to blast.

Thats no different then if the ravagore shoots my banes, stormblades, or any other medium armored infantry. Lets face it ravagores are a pain in the *** for every faction to deal with. But math says that the ravagores are the biggest threat aside from lylyth on her feat turn. Even on her feat turn pow 10 striders will not decimate your army and if they cra then they kill 1-3 at best. That's not any worse then ecaine does alone on feat turn.

You wanna see a sad lylyth, make her play scenario like the one with the tiny objective bar down the middle. lol There is a reason tournaments play scenario so you don't have elylyth, egaspy and those sort of casters being annoying or more annoying as it were.

I don't believe not knowing the precise stats on a faction I don't play completely devalues my assessment of this potential situation. It still stands that the Halbs were presumed 14" away and the Striders have a threat range well beyond that distance.

Also, the mention was previously made about passing these judgements in a vacuum, but your post here doesn't take into account eLylyth's Pin Cushion. The raw card of the Ravagores will want boosting, but PC will make them more Fury efficient to boost damage rolls.

Yes, other factions have a difficult time, but it appears to most of the forum community that eLylyth pretty much counters the whole faction and not just a couple of lists. Clearly, other factions have answers to her since Legion doesn't sweep every single tournament, but until this recent book, Ret players' best chance of getting past these lists is to not face them at all. The OP believes something simple can be provided to make these battles actually enjoyable instead of a nightmare.

[Scottl1]

Pincushion was not brought up since it only effects a single unit/model. During the best case like feat it won't effect your entire force.

Also what hurts the lylyth force in tournaments is they always play scenario and force her forward. Also in recent years the love of eVayl is replacing elylyth. lol

[Gho5t]

Pincushion was not brought up since it only effects a single unit/model. During the best case like feat it won't effect your entire force.

Also what hurts the lylyth force in tournaments is they always play scenario and force her forward. Also in recent years the love of eVayl is replacing elylyth. lol

I see. The purpose of my response was to show eLylyth's force taking down a first-wave melee unit without much trouble, saving the feat for a larger mass destruction or assassination; my belief is that the melee unit won't get there, and then your next melee unit, presumably further back, will not be able to run to engage the BG, either. It's a very difficult situation, but it's the one proposed as a sort of solution to dealing with eLylyth. I cannot agree under this situation.

I do think there may be a better chance of winning by scenario, but it's still difficult, and I don't think bringing all melee is that helpful against all shooting. Also, Ret's "strength" is mixed arms.

Using our melee units is almost perfect for eLyl lists. They need to clump together to get their ARM higher, which Ravagores love, and keeping them apart makes them vulnerable to Striders and solos or the BG in general. Vyros can give an ARM buff, which can help them get there, and Ossyan can give them Quicken to make them faster and higher DEF vs. ranged. Until eVyros is released, rough terrain will slow them down, too.

There are a lot of factors, but the results in tournaments is good evidence that no list is reliable to defeat Shadow Pack. Some great players can pull them off, but many don't. Have you played against eLylyth with a Ret list? How does it go for you? This situation was Jestor's, but I'm skeptical on its effectiveness. I'm willing to try it, but I feel that I will not succeed. Blame it on my lack of skill, but I don't think it's just me.

[Scottl1]

Ok so the main problem is the shadowpack battlegroup since it has good range and under her feat will get more shots. Her feat only affects things in control which is 10 in since she is fury 5. So most likely the only models effected is her, 2-3 ravagores, bolt thrower, and a shedder for tenacity. If she runs 3 or more bests she will have 1-2 shepherds.

elylyth
shedder
bolt thrower
2 ravagores
Striders with UA
2 shepherds

This is a common elylyth list for 35. The longest range in the list is the ravagore under feat is 18 inches. Then the 16 for the bolt thrower(under feat). The striders are range 12 with advanced deploy but being pow 10 they will most likely have to cra to kill arm 16 or better. The main pts vs the list is to spread out you stuff to min the 3in aoes and screen your caster so the bolt thrower does not knock down the caster so the ravagores bomb the caster.

Also because it maxed out it's feat damage it is very weak vs scenario. Honestly in scenerio if youre worried about your guys dying you can sit on the backside of the objective to make her come forward or send a jack in since it will be harder for them to kill it in a turn. I have played this matchup but as the lylyth player lol It's why I know on the average that it's not I set her on the board I win.

[Jestor]

Don't forget, she needs to be within 10" to cast Pin Cushion. If she gets that close and spends all her focus except one, like you suggest, even with the moves she can make after shots, if she stays in range to kill 4, she is out of Fury and dies to Kaelyssa laughing at her as she has zero transfers.

[Scottl1]

Don't forget, she needs to be within 10" to cast Pin Cushion. If she gets that close and spends all her focus except one, like you suggest, even with the moves she can make after shots, if she stays in range to kill 4, she is out of Fury and dies to Kaelyssa laughing at her as she has zero transfers.

She's range 15 for casting if she is the origin and can get farther IF she has a martyr. BUT if she casts too far ahead of her army the ret player could use eiryss to debuff the squad by shooting them. lol Sorry it was the first debuff method I think of.

[Gho5t]

Don't forget, she needs to be within 10" to cast Pin Cushion. If she gets that close and spends all her focus except one, like you suggest, even with the moves she can make after shots, if she stays in range to kill 4, she is out of Fury and dies to Kaelyssa laughing at her as she has zero transfers.

I'd imagine she'd go first to cast Pin Cushion, and likely shield herself with her BG during their activations. If Kaelyssa tries to Phantom Hunter through them, she probably won't pull it off since she won't be stealing Fury, and her gun's only POW 10 against a fresh warlock.

Actually, she probably could pull it off with good rolls and hogging all her Focus.
1. to boost hit
2. to boost damage
3. to buy another attack
4. to boost hit
5. to boost damage
6. to buy another attack
7. to boost hit (no boosting damage unless Fury was left on her)
In a Killbox or other scenario forcing her forward, this would certainly be a possibility. She would have to have Sylys around and Phantom Hunter would already have to be upkept on herself, though. And eLyl would have to have 1 Fury or less. The stars would have to align, but it seems possible.

[ReaVeD]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Ret sucks - far from it. A lot of folks here seem to think that it's just bad players that came to whine. I consider myself pretty experienced player and i won my share of local tournament with Ret. The thing is i was able to do that becasue i didn't get eLylyth in pairings (mostly cause i'm also the local Legion player ;]). I'm aware there are good and bad matchups - belive me i play 3 factions - i know. Also, the problem for Ret are not all stealth lists - i can handle most of them pretty fine (i.e. eKaya - it's still a MU in favor of the stealth list but it's all it is - a bad MU - happens) - the problem is eLylyth. She brings long range, high POW, boostable shooting that ignores stealth and you can't really return fire cause she is almost all stealth. It requires to make on list tailored against her and even then, except some huge mistake from Legion player - it's nearly unnwinnable. I know what i'm talking about i know this form both sides of the table.

THB i also don't think that a solo or even a unit with true sight will fix this and certainly MHSF should NEVER get True Sight! The unit is awsome and powerfull as it is. I'm looking more to Razorblades for some fast troops to engage her shooters early on and new casters that will hopefully bring some buffs to our faction.

Ret players lately felt a little unloved by PP (probably it the cause of this thread) - mainly cause they (PP) think that Hordes were behind on releases and that needed fixing and Ret is good as it is (i'm reffering to PP presentation on L&L). Well i think that hordes can handle themselves better than Ret at this point and it's a bit unfair.

[Jestor]

She's range 15 for casting if she is the origin and can get farther IF she has a martyr. BUT if she casts too far ahead of her army the ret player could use eiryss to debuff the squad by shooting them. lol Sorry it was the first debuff method I think of.

Soulless Escort.

[x3tsniper]

Most steam roller scenarios have killbox as a secondary scenario. They dropped it as a standalone scenario, and basically added to the rules of other scenarios that you need your caster x close or you lose. That is what I have gotten from it at least.

[Murkhadh]

Most steam roller scenarios have killbox as a secondary scenario. They dropped it as a standalone scenario, and basically added to the rules of other scenarios that you need your caster x close or you lose. That is what I have gotten from it at least.

I can't say most, all of the rf scenario's and all of the interactive objective ones don't' have killbox, killbox is only there on about 1/3 of them.

[Bully Bully Mahu]

Pincushion is rarely the issue.

It is the almost two uncontested turns of shooting, in certain scenarios, and the decidedly lack of defensive buffs (compared to other factions) that is usually the worry. Kaelyssa is the only caster that can help out infantry get across the board the best, but beasts can still shoot up the incoming infantry, and a smart player does not have to kill all the infantry on the feat turn, just the ones in charge range.

The Legion player has shooting followed by decent melee threat against Ret, the Ret player has only melee threat. Most times, the player that has both wins.

The point of this thread was to offer a suggestion that would give the Retribution player some tactical plays against what is admittedly their weakest match-up.

The funny thing I find in all of this is that play style wise, Legion and Ret are remarkably similar, not the same but similar, playstyle wise, the difference is the tools both factions have.

[Azuresun]

Ret's stealth mitigaion:
Kae's goggles+ 12/10 gun= dead paper armor solos and units
Discordia's spray 10 (Ret's only spray)

There's Dahlia & Skarath as well.

[Hasten]

THB i also don't think that a solo or even a unit with true sight will fix this and certainly MHSF should NEVER get True Sight!

Unless it's an alternate UA that grants True Sight instead of Phantom Hunter =).

Regarding eLylyth, she will very seldom be exposing herself (errr, that came out wrong) to cast Pin Cushion in my experience, unless perhaps she's moving in to seal the deal on the caster.

Regarding her feat turn, I usually see the Striders affected too, giving them the extra Snipe range. Between her personal attacks and the Striders, I usually see most of my front line unit evaporate on feat turn (6 kills from her, Swift Hunter to safety, probably another 4 from the Striders, possibly 2-3 from a Ravagore hit, depending on board geometry). Her battlegroup will often drop one of my heavies completely. Her second turn is more of the same, though obviously at a decreased volume of fire, and then you hope you have enough critical mass left to drop two Ravagores in melee, or have something that can seal the deal on eLylyth. I also haven't seen much mention of the Scather templates left over by the Ravagores. In my experience that tends to complicate getting your infantry into position to tie up her army.

That's just my data point on her. I see her pretty frequently, though it's often at 50 points. I generally play Skorne, though I'm dabbling in Ret with the intention of picking them up as my second army.

Frankly I'm not really sure that Guidance would even be enough to improve this matchup significantly for the Retribution. Having one stealth ignoring model is not going to deal significant damage at range to a Ravagore, and Lylyth can transfer the hit if you can land it, so it isn't much of an assassination threat (better than nothing, certainly). It seems to me that having a model that could remove the Stealth advantage would be an actual match-changer for Retribution, as then you can actually bring enough firepower to bear to significantly damage a heavy warbeast. To be avoid being imbalanced, such a piece would need to be fairly expensive (e.g. 4+ points) and should have a limited range on the ability, so that the opponent can employ tactics to mitigate the threat. There are a lot of models you could make that would fit those criteria, from my suggested stealth-denying bubble, to a light or heavy myrm that had something like True Sight and a ranged attack that would allow other models to target one that it had hit with its ranged attack.

That's my two cents on it, in any case =).

-H

[Bakemono]

Or we could just accept that Stealth is INTENDED to be a serious problem for Retribution and leave it at that. We all have tough (bad) match-ups. Fighting E-Lyth isn't a walk in the park for anyone. It isn't auto-lose and there are several Retribution builds that can fight her just fine. Have one of those lists ready as a second list if you feel that your battling this particular problem is upcoming. I'd love to have Admonition for my Circle lists too, but I don't think I'm going to get it anytime soon (nor should I).

[PG_Sobek]

There's Dahlia & Skarath as well.

Technically not in-faction, unfortunately.

[Scottl1]

Accepting its tough and knowing the tricks were the main points I was advocating. If you know about the relative strengths you're less apt to walk in and get worked over. I played marl1 and have only been playing mark 2now for a few months and I hafta say my early ignorance was worse then anything that my opponent put down on the table. Lol I had been playing 40k pretty heavily in tourneys for the last few years so relearning things has been my main goal. To be fair to the poster who said the striders were hangin back to be included in the feat I say great that means he is not that threatening early and doesn't sound like you played a scenario which is in the lylyth players plan. Lol

[Hasten]

To be fair to the poster who said the striders were hangin back to be included in the feat I say great that means he is not that threatening early and doesn't sound like you played a scenario which is in the lylyth players plan. Lol

Well that's the thing about eLylyth -- they don't really need to be running up the field to be threatening. Their job is to weed out the infantry that you're trying to tie up her heavy warbeasts with. The impetus is on her opponent to reach melee, otherwise they get absolutely taken apart at range. That means that the Strider's primary targets are sprinting up the field right towards them. Between that and Snipe, they really don't have any need to move forward to engage, at least in my experience *shrugs*.

-H

[bronzeback40]

Ret =! Skorne

and you're missing the irony that they gave guidance to a faction that took 6 years to get a developed range game. Fail.

Until you pluck your eyes out, you can do it with spells like Cygnar does.

Edit: after seeing the devolution into anti-eLylyth whining, she is hardly unbeatable. I realize Ret isn't the bets at attrition, but slog it out and find a way.

[Hasten]

and you're missing the irony that they gave guidance to a faction that took 6 years to get a developed range game. Fail.

Heheh. It's interesting that the Extoller pretty much launched our ranged game in MK I, due to how nutso Ghost Sight was (seriously, talk about OP, it was basically True Sight + Phantom Hunter that you could hand out to anything in your army, and affected entire units). That pretty much was our ranged game =). Then it became a single-model Eyeless Sight...

That said, it's better for the faction in the long run. Game-breaking abilities like that would really have hampered our ability to get solid ranged models down the road, which we are starting to see =).

-H

[Bully Bully Mahu]

Stealth is very hard to overcome with Ret, the reason I proposed this solo was for 2 reasons.

1. You give us a caster with Mage sight, the problem is solved. However, then we always take that caster in tournaments.
2. You give us a Jack with targeting flare, awesome. In fact, that is the best option, because now we can pick up stealthed heavies with shooting. Guess what, that becomes an auto-include jack for us.

I feel PP doesn't want Ret to become like other factions where certain casters are just almost auto-includes. That is the MO for every faction these days. Khador will never get another Old Witch, Cryx will never get another eGaspy.

Ret has a great stable of casters, that will only get better as the game progresses. Having a support solo is, IMHO, the best solution because it opens up many different casters game, and it opens up a lot of different options concerning our ranged jacks. If they are worried about the auto include nature of such a piece, or it's implications, just make it a character. Done.

I feel the thing that hurts Ret the most, and they are still a fairly strong faction, is that they have no "legacy" pieces. They are designed specifically with the Mark 2 mindset. I am OK with that, but in a game system where legacy pieces do exist, at least there needs to be an acknowledgement of that imbalance, no matter how slight.

[Murkhadh]

Most factions can't shoot stealthed things, people who aren't legion or cygnar are generally in the same boat as us when it comes to stealth.

[Bully Bully Mahu]

Yes, but I believe our situation is remarkable different. Like I mentioned, we have no defensive buffs for our faction. We don't have Iron Flesh, and we don't have defenders ward. Compare us to the other factions as far as defensive abilities are concerned.

Of all factions Ret hits the table the most "naked". So yes, it is a different situation. I can't say with Ret, like I can with my Khador or Skorne, that between DEF and tough, I should have some survivability.

I am fine with that, it isn't how the faction plays. We are combined arms, our best defense is a good offense, we punish people at range then hit them hard when we get there.

Against any list that allows us to do that, we are awesome as a faction. I have had great games against Trolls and Menoth because of it. However, put that list down that says, "hey, you know that whole half of your faction you depend on? well how about you don't get that". To a certain extent I am OK with that. Stealth should matter, and nothing in this thread was meant to go against that. It only becomes an issue when it becomes a debilitating weakness.

All I am arguing for is minor stealth mitigation as a tactical tool and in a way that provides support for multiple casters. Even if eVyros was the hard answer to eLylith, or other such lists, would that be good for us? To always take one caster in every SR we attend to cover that bad match up? Sounds boring to me.

[Bakemono]

Stealth is very hard to overcome with Ret, the reason I proposed this solo was for 2 reasons.

No, it isn't. Stealth is very hard to overcome for "shooting" purposes. That is it. The Retribution has more options than shooting. Throughout this entire thread the point has been to give Retribution a "work around" of their primary limitation so their shooting is unfettered to compliment their other abilities.

1. You give us a caster with Mage sight, the problem is solved. However, then we always take that caster in tournaments.

Or you could just try a list that doesn't key on shooting.

2. You give us a Jack with targeting flare, awesome. In fact, that is the best option, because now we can pick up stealthed heavies with shooting. Guess what, that becomes an auto-include jack for us.

Perhaps and perhaps not. Given that there is a wide variety of armies out there and not all of them key on Stealth, taking models entirely for that purpose is dubious. Such a model would probably not be good at much else.

Ret has a great stable of casters, that will only get better as the game progresses. Having a support solo is, IMHO, the best solution because it opens up many different casters game, and it opens up a lot of different options concerning our ranged jacks. If they are worried about the auto include nature of such a piece, or it's implications, just make it a character. Done.

If they have a great stable of casters there is no problem. You don't need a support solo to allow of them to ignore the faction's primary weakness. You could try, instead, to do things other than relying so much on your ranged options. I have fought quite a few Retribution lists that where nasty, combat blends that were in no way hobbled by Stealth (hint: I play E-Kaya all the time). I accept that my faction has certain limitations that they have not mitigated or removed. You should do the same. I know you WANT to ignore Stealth. I WANT Admonition. Neither of us should get what we want because for our factions to get that ability would be broken as hell.

[Cannotcope]

Yes, but I believe our situation is remarkable different. Like I mentioned, we have no defensive buffs for our faction. We don't have Iron Flesh, and we don't have defenders ward. Compare us to the other factions as far as defensive abilities are concerned.

What is:
Quicken
Deflection
Inviolate Resolve
?

Also:
Shieldwall
Defensive Line
Unyeilding
?

And ignoring the Legion issue:
Stealth
?

Against spells:
Whiplash
Banishing Ward
Soulless Escorts
?

[Warcaster Feiss]

Not to mention the bubbles of shooty protection offered by either Discordia, or the Artificer.

[Ana Su]

Can I haz this for Trollbloods then too, as I struggle with stealth quite often?

Why? As a troll player you can run the KSB with UA into position and get rid of stealth. At least thats how I remember it works.

[wargrim]

Yes, that's how it works, but running a 4-point support unit that wants to stay close to your troops right into the enemy's face isn't anywhere as good as a 2-point solo that only needs to stay 5" to one of your models.

Some defensive buffs missed:
- polarity shield
- kaes feat
- force barrier

[Warcaster Feiss]

Yes, that's how it works, but running a 4-point support unit that wants to stay close to your troops right into the enemy's face isn't anywhere as good as a 2-point solo that only needs to stay 5" to one of your models.

Some defensive buffs missed:
- polarity shield
- kaes feat
- force barrier

My Bloodtrackers normally die to Blast Damage, I think they need Force Barrier

[Bully Bully Mahu]

My point was that Ret traditionally doesn't have the capability to take a punch as well as other factions. Unless you want to equate ARM buffs to DEF buffs. Long Gunners can still pick up DEF 14 Quickened Sentinels. And if you think shield wall + Deflection is as good as Iron Zeal, then I don't know what to tell you.

Ok, I misspoke. Ret does have protective abilities. Are their protective abilities as good as other factions? I don't think anybody could honestly say that. The coolest thing ret does is blast immunity, which is decidedly awesome is certain situations. Outside of that, you are taking moderate defensive stats and making them decent when a lot of factions can make moderate defensive stats almost too good.

Like I said, this thread is not about that though. It is about the design of the faction. That is the discussion we should be having. I fully agree that the melee abilities of the faction are much greater then Cygnar. Cygnar should have more stealth negation because they are much more shooting oriented than Ret. However, shooting is still a part of their game, and one that they rely on to challenge other factions.

All I suggest is stealth mitigation for a single model at a time. Is that so game breakingly broken that it can't even be considered?

[Murkhadh]

All I suggest is stealth mitigation for a single model at a time. Is that so game breakingly broken that it can't even be considered?

Its not game breakingly broken, its not necessarily, your trying to fix a problem that we don't have.

My major complaint with ret, eVyros and Hyperion answer. I'm not willing to say we aren't just fine now until these models hit the table and fail at fixing the problems they are supposed to.

I think its silly that models get announced and the very next day people are starting petitions to fix issues they didn't see as fixed by the new models before they are even released or hit the table.

[Bakemono]

My point was that Ret traditionally doesn't have the capability to take a punch as well as other factions.

You take a punch just as well as my faction? I don't have any decent long range shooting at all. Like you I have to close the distance getting the crud blown out of me by opposing fire. You have just as many answers to it as I do, more if you count the fact that you get to shoot at the people coming toward you.

Ok, I misspoke. Ret does have protective abilities. Are their protective abilities as good as other factions? I don't think anybody could honestly say that. The coolest thing ret does is blast immunity, which is decidedly awesome is certain situations. Outside of that, you are taking moderate defensive stats and making them decent when a lot of factions can make moderate defensive stats almost too good.

You didn't "misspoke," you "spun" the data, leaving out what didn't support your argument. That is neither here nor there. Retribution has tons of things I wish I had (and things which I don't have an easy answer for), but that is just the hand we are dealt. Retribution perform just fine for all that. You want a fix for a NON-problem.

Like I said, this thread is not about that though. It is about the design of the faction. That is the discussion we should be having. I fully agree that the melee abilities of the faction are much greater then Cygnar. Cygnar should have more stealth negation because they are much more shooting oriented than Ret. However, shooting is still a part of their game, and one that they rely on to challenge other factions.

We have been having that discussion. You want to remove the last restraint on your gun line, arguing that the army is hobbled without this "fix." The evidence is that your army is built the way it is for a reason. The "design" of the faction specifically avoids giving you ways to get around Stealth. That pattern would indicate PP wants it that way.

All I suggest is stealth mitigation for a single model at a time. Is that so game breakingly broken that it can't even be considered?

Then ask for a single model that ignores Stealth, not the ability to give it to any model you want. There is a huge difference. That is no different from me asking for an Animus that grants Admonition to any model I want... one at a time.

[Hasten]

What is:
...
Also:
Shieldwall
Defensive Line

A Death Sentence against Ravagores =P. At least, that's been my experience

-H

[Gho5t]

Or we could just accept that Stealth is INTENDED to be a serious problem for Retribution and leave it at that. We all have tough (bad) match-ups. Fighting E-Lyth isn't a walk in the park for anyone. It isn't auto-lose and there are several Retribution builds that can fight her just fine. Have one of those lists ready as a second list if you feel that your battling this particular problem is upcoming. I'd love to have Admonition for my Circle lists too, but I don't think I'm going to get it anytime soon (nor should I).

If you've really been reading through this thread, you'll notice that people have already brought these ideas up and they've already been countered. Ideas have been proposed to go "all melee", but it's also been discussed the difficulty of survival to accomplish it against eLylyth. Did I miss the posted suggestion that people agreed was a fine solution? eVyros and Hyperion aren't out yet, but for those proxying, how many have tested them agaisnt eLyl?

A lot of non-Ret players have brought up that other factions have tough match-ups. Of those tough match-ups, how many would you say are a hard counter to your entire faction? The Ret forum has had many threads on how to deal with eLylyth specifically, and many agree that she's just a tough match up no matter what. No definitive "anti-eLylyth" Ret list exists to my knowledge, but folks have been searching for something for a long time now.

[FranzGrenstein]

You take a punch just as well as my faction? I don't have any decent long range shooting at all. Like you I have to close the distance getting the crud blown out of me by opposing fire. You have just as many answers to it as I do, more if you count the fact that you get to shoot at the people coming toward you.

Wait a minute, don't you have the "bad santa brick"?

That thing takes a punch like nobodys business, it kind just rolls up the board. 2 stones to give the megalith/woldgardians threat range stupid. Darn tough to soften up with range too.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I played Legion nearly exclusively through MK I, and Epic Lylyth made it into my line up more than just a handful of times. And while she's only seen the tabletop once during the field test, and once over the board in MK II, I still predominantly play Legion and am pretty familar with her utility and abilities. Further, her feat still largely functions the same as it did in MK I. For what it's worth, I've also dabbled with Retribution.

What's been said in an earlier post is really the key to an Epic Lylyth victory: Two turns of uncontested shooting. That's really the key.

One turn of uncontested shooting is par for the course for Legion in many match-ups, and helps justify the premium point values of their battlegroup. In an ideal world, the opposition is softened sufficiently that the more fragile elements of the battlegroup can survive the scrum. But two turns of uncontested shooting is almost certainly decisive. Of those WLs capable of engineering two turns of uncontested shooting, Epic Lylyth is the most straight forward, the most one dimensional, and the most difficult to duck away from. It almost seems like you either have her hard counter, or you don't. In exchange for being a "single cheap trick", she operates within the typical Legion constraints (Typed damage, pays a premium for access to magical weapons, etc).

With two Ravagores, and a Lylyth feat, there are six boosted POW: 15s over two turns. Surviving that is difficult, particularly if they can concetrate fire on single targets (Which they probably can).

Fortunately for anyone who can survive Epic Lylyth on feat turn, she'll almost assuredly fold in melee. Her Ravagores are pillow fisted, and her bolt thrower doesn't fare much better.

The lists that will fare the best against her are the ones that can contest her ranged bombardment. Some of the solutions to this among available options are that this can be accomplished by raising ARM and DEF vs. ranged attacks, by returning fire while closing to melee, and by overwhelming her low model count force with a high model count force.

In some one respect, I think that Retribution is better suited to survive Epic Lylyth than other factions, solely because their shields ensure that Myrmidon's will lose systems much later in the damage tracks than their Warjack counterparts. So the ones that arrive after withering fire have a better chance of still outputting functional damage.

If I were playing against Epic Lylyth, the specific Retribution models that I would want to see would probably be Discordia, with it's imprint for +2 ARM vs. Shooting in a list run by Ossyan, since his feat would soften that second turn of uncontested shooting. Also, I'd want Discordia deep enough in my army that any Ravagore's desiring to focus fire it down would need to advance far enough forward that they'd be caught by the defensive application of Ossyan's feat. Further, a SPD: 8 Discordia with a 10" spray operating under feat will definitely lay a definitive smack down on a Legion Warbeast, which further interrupts the 'two uncontested turns' of firepower.

What's painful about that solution is that I imagine the typical gameplan of an Ossyan feat is dreaming about dealing long range destruction. Not eeking out survival on the receiving end of it. I imagine there's something pithy about adapting or dying that could be said here.

-s&s

[Scottl1]

Well that's the thing about eLylyth -- they don't really need to be running up the field to be threatening. Their job is to weed out the infantry that you're trying to tie up her heavy warbeasts with. The impetus is on her opponent to reach melee, otherwise they get absolutely taken apart at range. That means that the Strider's primary targets are sprinting up the field right towards them. Between that and Snipe, they really don't have any need to move forward to engage, at least in my experience *shrugs*.

-H

Unless she's doing combined ranged attacks she is hard pressed to kill arm 16+ which is limiting the shots since there is 8 striders with a UA. If the squad doesn't have the officer they don't have hunter so I'm not sure where your problems in the past stem from. I don't know how the board was setup or scenario was involved.

[Maou_Mint]

I think there's a lot of interesting points here on both sides of the spectrum. I'm going to be trying some of these anti-ideas at some point...BE + Disco + Ossy + Arcanists + extra Myrmiddons...might not be bad.

For myself, I'm still not sure another solo is what I'd like to see. I'd rather see a unit of any of the following: Spray attack mages, Medium based powered Armor infantry with multiple wounds, a second option for AOE infantry, a more artillery-ish artillery unit, a character unit...or any combo thereof... I don't know, I feel RET is already drowning in nifty solos...maybe that's just me though.

[SteakAndSpirits]

This probably isn't especially comforting at the immediate moment, but I imagine those new Razor-Blade wielding Mage Hunters lead by 3pic Eyriss probably won't hurt this match-up. They'll likely have stealth, which helps sidestep some of the frustration linked to the application of striders.

-s&s

[Murkhadh]

Retribution is better suited to deal with lylth? That is probably the most untrue thing I have ever read on this forum, congratz.

The things that mess her up and good multiple heavies with 20+ arm, and then tough or multi wound infantry with decent armor to shut down snapfire. We don't have that.

eVyros "may" be the first thing we got that can finally handle her because you can actually run enough jacks to not make it easy on her and you can get to her in a hurry.