How to build a zaal force

[lifelesspoet]

My problem is that I can't bring myself to build one caster armies for the using one caster optimally. Zaal looks really good and fun to play and he gets rave reviews, but from what I can tell uses a different army then the rest of skorne. This is especially true of the tier.
So how would you build a zaal 50 army with maximum model overlap and still have an effective caster. I have hakaar, but not immortals, ags, karax, that some people like to run with him. I either want things that work best with zaal that can work well with another caster or something that can work well with him but is best with someone else.

[gaminguy]

There's nothing in particular wrong with using Nihilators, Swordsmen, Arcuarii, Cetrati, or Ferox with Zaal. He does like a larger number of lighter beasts in his loadout, but Gladiators and Archidons (and even Rhinodons) are lethal under his command as well.

I think a lot of people load up the AGs, Immortals, and Karax with him more for the chance to make them shine than because Zaal wants them over the other options.

[gaminguy]

i can't help wondering why the smart phones have such an issue with submitting twice, you barely ever saw that on the forums before internet-enabled phones started getting really widespread.

[Stuh42l]

i can't help wondering why the smart phones have such an issue with submitting twice, you barely ever saw that on the forums before internet-enabled phones started getting really widespread.

It has to do with the way most servers handle phone OS requests, which is to say not very well. A lot of times, they 'hang,' and your phone knows this. So often the phone will resubmit a request if it doesn't get a response. Sometimes, that means the server gets 2 requests that it actually can read, and you have a double post. You almost never notice it outside of forum architecture though.

Have you ever loaded a website on your phone that took a bit, cleared, then reloaded quickly? Same thing is happening there.

[Stuh42l]

On a related note, Zaal works well with anything. However, 2 of his signature abilities directly relate to having AG's around. If you want to only run Hakaar, then great, but you only have one Kovaas, and one extra transfer target. Nothing wrong with picking up one more AG for your list, giving you 2. Everything else can be living. The Immortals are in many peoples list because they like having the AG's that are already there, and with vengeance, they can really benefit from having Last Stand up kept on them.

[Junn Khan]

Zaal works well with everything, it's just that he has certain synergys with other models. Zaal is my favorite caster and my old tournie list doesn't have immortals in it and probably never will. Zaal's win condition is caster kill, via his feat if possible and through Last Stand and IMO Immortals are too slow to get the job done. Most models become gods of destruction under last stand, Ferox come to mind as a great example. The only models I'd take that are outside the standard grab box are Ancestral Guardians, but that's because he makes them crazy good. The only real trick is balancing infantry with fury generation and I'm not the biggest fan of running all lights.

[x3tsniper]

The ferox are easily the best models for him to take in my opinion.

[Darque]

I have no problem using universal models in a Zaal list one of my standard lists is nothing BUT universal models.
Don't like immortals? don't use them.
2 Units of Nihlators is usually plenty good enough to trash things with, plus souls (that's important).
To be honest, MK is there more as a red herring than a real threat. I keep him back because people are scared of the Karn Bullet and do the lions share of the killing with the light beasts and AGs.
Playing against Warmachine faction primarily (my meta tends not to take more than one heavy Jack) I find this is enough.

Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas
Cyclops Brute - 5
Cyclops Savage - 5 (may switch to Raider if play testing does well)
Cyclops Savage - 5
Molik Karn - 11
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) - 8
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) - 8
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) - 3
Ancestral Guardian - 3
Ancestral Guardian - 3
Hakaar the Destroyer - 4

My dream match up would be a Cryx Terminus list. oh how sweet would that be?

[Earthcrosser599]

Nihilators under Zaal are pretty disgusting. Feroxes can be surprisingly effective since it's hard to keep away from them and they effectively get two weapon master attacks under Last Stand. Guardians under Last Stand are a shadow of the mark 1 versions and actually become playable.

Immortals are a trap. Don't fall for it.

[PG_strangedane]

But Immortals have quite the threat range if you run one of them in front to get attacked and triggering vengeance?
-Vengeance = 3"
-Start within 10 of AG = +2" mov
-Charge = 7"
-Reach = 2"
For a total threat range (when one has died (again) and still within 10 of AG) of 14" - or 3" more than Nihilators?

EDIT: Also, Last Stand and Vengeance lets the Immortals make 2 attacks before being destroyed!

[Earthcrosser599]

That's really not practical under most situations because your opponent generally won't let you get Vengeance moves that are meaningful.

[PG_yaro86ster]

Earthcrosser- it depends. Arm 17 is not so easy to crack also good positioning makes them really hard to fight against.
I found it that nihilators have tendency to be shoted before they engage, so I play immortals agresively and nihilators behind them, but I found that it happens that job is done before nihilators have chance to shine. I also use Rhadeim with Zaal- he is monster especialy against objectives (AP + last stand and no Free strikes - what you need more).
Unfortunetly ferox didn't make into main list so they are in reinforcements.

Zaal is something like Irusk for infanty in Khador- he makes that everything works under him. His only downside is that he tends to always feel about being short in points...
Also don't take with him our heavies- he don't need them and this will save you some points. also good idea is to have krea hanging around - his stats are like old man

[PG_strangedane]

Agree, good positioning will get them far! Sadly last time I used them they faced off against blood trackers who had preyed them, was a short fight but so it would have been for Nihilators

[PG_Jesus]

You want Haakar and 2 AGs with him. They can really suprise your opponent with feat and/or Last Stand. They will take out most things short of a Khadoran heavy. Immortals are a viable option with him due to Invioable Resolve. This puts them up to arm 19 which makes it hard for people to pot shot them down. I suggest Marketh with Zaal as you can give him the souls he needs and this way Marketh becomes a huge resource for Zaal upkeeping spells for free and cycling Last Stand where need be.

Also since you might be taking an extoler anyways try a Raider and a Canoneer. Let your infantry do the heavy lifting with Last Stand and use your beasts to pick off targets of importance and transfer to. Remember Zaal is a member of the old man club he is only def 14 and arm 15. With Marketh you can afford to camp 3-4 fury and transfer as needed. Keeping Zaal a lot safer.

Zaal is just a great choice vs Cryx especially. You deny souls and have access to lots of magical weapons.

[Sygerrik]

Zaal is my go-to against Cryx, not just for soul denial but because he can beat them at their own game. He has upkeep hate, he can clear infantry like crazy with Ferox and Nihilators, and he has about a million threat vectors against their caster since conceivably anything can pull off the assassination. Things he wants:
-Ferox, ferox, ferox. Max out a unit and take Rhadeim if you can.
-AGs and Soulwards, obviously. This includes Hakaar (first, to be honest)
-Tyrant Commander. Never a bad option, and Zaal wants to be able to deliver his threats
-Nihilators. One or two can clear out a whole unit under Last Stand.
-Marketh. The only situation when I don't run Marketh with him is in char-restricted format where I have pMorg or pMak as one of my other casters. Having Last Stand on two or three units in one turn is explosively good.
-Ranged beasts. I say Shaman, Raider, and Krea, with Awakened Spirit on the Krea. You want your beasts in the backfield to stay alive and take potshots, and you don't want them to be too expensive because that means less infantry. You can try Cannoneer but I am consistently disappointed with his performance. Try two Raiders instead.

Also remember the Last Stand + AG trick. Last Stand one, run it up. Opponent advances, make a Last Standed Defensive Strike. It hurts bad and then at the end of the opponent's turn if the AG is still alive it turns into a Kovaas, ready to activate on your turn.

[lifelesspoet]

I really like the cannoneer/raider/extoller behind a infantry swarm.
zaal
cannoneer
raider
marketh
full nihilators
full ferox
full swordsmen
gobbers
hakaar
2 ag's
extoller
I can live with something like this. Arm 19 infantry is mean, but less useful without giving up thier souls. I may pick up immortals if double epic makeda breathes new life into them.

[PG_carnage4u]

Zaal gives a player so many choices when list building.One of the chioces is to go beast light (2 to 3 light beats) and all infantry. I find this to be a LOT of fun, but my only concern, is there are soo many good anti infantry lists due to 'anti cryx' lists out there, that sometimes an enemey will chew thru your models a little too fast"

• I find I almost always want Nihliators with him. They simple can do so much damage and can rip thru clumps of any type of infantry, under feat/last stand (only 1 of thsoe 2 are needed to make them amzing, both is over the top crazy)I like to have a cheap unit..
• I use to run full Karax to fill the rull of both blocker/cheaper troop to die, and even some last standed karax can deal out some damage.Since Slingers have come out though, they have stolen the show, for their ability to get int he way, deal out some suprisinglygood damage, and die to feed my feat / and help fuel my extollers/AG's
• Hakaar is amazing with Zaal. I often Last stand him to remove some pesky heavy Model off the table, If i dont need him to do that, he just reeks havoc for a good amount of time.
• if i'm not going infantry spam. I do like the Gladitor + Either (bronzeback, tiberion, Molik Karn) - While a cyclops savage can be amazing under zaal, I really like having the heavy hitter that I can make even more crazy. It really forces my opponents to keep his heavyes back, as under zaal. I can kill 2 to 3 of his heavies with just 1 of mine. (if they are not careful on spacing)
• If I'm going light beasts, I typically take 3 support beasts Krea + Raider + brute is my current favorite combo... Then I can give snipe to any extoller. these 3 beasts can do some decent damage if I need them to as well late game.
• If I go infantry heavy. I take Hakaar + 2 AG +2 extollers + 2 tyrant commanders. I really try to fit the Ferox in the list, and use them as the last wave to make sure they can get full effect of the feat. I would last stand them if i had a good caster kill run as well lined up.

[x3tsniper]

I once had Hakkar take out a full health Venethrax camping something like armor 24. Did a combo and then bought 2 attacks. I feel like playing skorne this afternoon. >.>

[PG_Noble Rain]

Immortals are a trap. Don't fall for it.

Don't know why but admiral Ackbar (Star wars) Popped into my head as I read this...

[Falkman]

Is there a particular reason as to why people love several lights with Zaal? Is it simply because you get more Fury for cheaper?
I'm really interested in Zaal but don't really see why everyone recommends a bunch of lights for him.

[Rez]

Zaal is Def 15, Arm 14, not the other way round. Still old man stats, but Def 15 isnt the worst going round.

Ive played a bit of Zaal now, dont think the no heavies approach is the best. With things like Colossals now in the game, having something that can comfortably one round them is a pretty massive advantage when facing one.

[Stuh42l]

Is there a particular reason as to why people love several lights with Zaal? Is it simply because you get more Fury for cheaper?
I'm really interested in Zaal but don't really see why everyone recommends a bunch of lights for him.

It is all about the points. Zaal doesn't need heavies to wreck armor for him, as 3-5 immortals with LS and vengence or a singe AG can wreck most heavies in the game and med based infantry gets chewed up and spit out. His feat is also powered by warrior models. Therefore, the more warrior models you have, the more your feat is powered, and the more models that can take advantage of it.

This is why people take light beasts, you need some fury, but you don't need the hitting power of a heavy. I took just a Raider and a Drake to the L&L tiers tourney with Zaal. Look for lights that add utility (Raider) or something your army needs (Drakes spray to clear the way to caster) and play with whatever infantry you like!

[Stuh42l]

Immortals are a trap. Don't fall for it.

If you say so.

Personally, I think they are amazing, and devastate most situations. They personally have 3 caster kills themselves under Zaal. You have to use them in waves, with trash infantry to screen them. If you use them as the first wave, you will be underwhelmed.

To each their own.

[Falkman]

It is all about the points. Zaal doesn't need heavies to wreck armor for him, as 3-5 immortals with LS and vengence or a singe AG can wreck most heavies in the game and med based infantry gets chewed up and spit out. His feat is also powered by warrior models. Therefore, the more warrior models you have, the more your feat is powered, and the more models that can take advantage of it.

This is why people take light beasts, you need some fury, but you don't need the hitting power of a heavy. I took just a Raider and a Drake to the L&L tiers tourney with Zaal. Look for lights that add utility (Raider) or something your army needs (Drakes spray to clear the way to caster) and play with whatever infantry you like!

I see, thank you for the explanation!
Probably gonna try him with a Cannoneer + Raider combo first though, see how that goes.

[Stuh42l]

I see, thank you for the explanation!
Probably gonna try him with a Cannoneer + Raider combo first though, see how that goes.

That is a pretty popular idea now, though I used the raider animus on himself and on my 2 extollers to get a couple assassinations.

[PG_carnage4u]

With Coloassals on the table. I think it may take a heavybeast to take them out. Last standed infantry with feat can still do some good damage, but most factions that have coloassals on the table are going to have some great anti-infantry ability and I feel the extra damage output is something that is going to be important to bring down these big monsters. We will need to play some games against them for a while to see really waht is needed to ensure they are taken out. (against hordes, extollers will do plenty of damage at least) - (of course I always think of lists in pairs, so if zaal has no heavies, list 2 should have them in order to bring down the huge base models)

[Stuh42l]

YeahI probably wont field Zaal vs Colossals at less then 50pts. Stormwall isa hard counter to single wound infantry spam.

[viperidae99]

Since the change to Mk2, I've only played a Zaal a few times, and mostly against Trolls (grr). I found my infantry died quickly enough to fuel the feat (through Last Stand or general battlefield means) but then anything that could take advantage wasn't near enough, or didn't have a gap to go through to hit anything meaningful. If my front infantry go down and then I use their deaths to carve through his front infantry, we're basically even and now it's his turn. What have I gained?

I also felt Last Stand was a bit of a trap (Ackbar!), as it promised the world and then potentially didn't deliver, costing me models. For instance, hitting Troll Champions. If you don't guaranteed take them out (and Tough makes this an issue), your guys then disappear and the Champions now have a clear charge on whatever was behind them.

People are obviously getting good mileage out of Zaal, and I would definitely benefit from playing him more, but I've found he throws away his army, then is wide open and dies to whatever survives. Particularly against Trolls, an angle on their caster isn't that easy to get with all the bricking, and then transfers, buffs bla bla bla. Maybe I could use some Arcuarii to pull things out of the way, not to mention they'd be HIDEOUS under Last Stand or the Feat.

Tips welcome.

[PG_yaro86ster]

Colossals are other problem- I'm thinking that I will go with a bit more Xerxis or Rasheth heavy theme for second list. Zaal is so toolbox all-rounder that he can cover most of matchups and second list will be to crack this insane amount of damageboxes. For Zaal not ARM of Colossals is problem, rather 60 boxes.

[Earthcrosser599]

Zaal can turn buffs on the Colossals off, though. That alone makes him a contender. And a Last Standed Gladiator may not completely kill one, but it will definitely put a chunk of damage on one.

[PG_yaro86ster]

yes but i feel difrence Last Standing Cyclops Savage to kill heavy or Last Stand Gladiator. I think his signature is not the best way.

[Refyougee]

An enraged, last standed and feated Titan of any kind has a pretty good shot at wrecking a colossal on its own when you factor in Hex Blast. Get Hakaar in the mix and that becomes even likelier.

I do agree that infantry-blending monsters like the Stormwall should probably be tackled by a different warlock when possible, though.

[Refyougee]

An enraged, last standed and feated Titan of any kind has a pretty good shot at wrecking a colossal on its own when you factor in Hex Blast. Get Hakaar in the mix and that becomes even likelier.

I do agree that infantry-blending monsters like the Stormwall should probably be tackled by a different warlock when possible, though.