Vengers ur thoughts

[Venom321]

Ok so i'm workin on a list with vengers and have noted that they get maligned alot. I'm thinking flank with dw and kreoss or psevv. Whats with all the hate i just don't understand. I know they used to be great with testament but they still seem good. Any thoughts or advice would be great

[Helbrecht]

The main problem with Vengers, and most cavalry in general, is that their usefulness is based on if they charge. With Vengers specifically, if you don't charge, you can't use the lance. Sure they have a weapon master sword, but it takes away from the usefulness significantly. The new Kreoss in Colossals gives Vengers a pretty cool buff, I think its called Signs and Portents from Khador. The real challenge is positioning them in a way where you know you can charge, and your opponent has a tough time killing them.

With Testament all you do is really pop feat and charge over your guys at the enemy caster. That has really always been a solid strategy. DW is an excellent buff spell so really it depends on your caster preference. I think pSevvy brings more to the table. His feat basically shuts down every warmachine faction and he has a better spell list. I would try them with pSevvy first. I know I'm giving them a shot with the new Kreoss this weekend.

[Roktop]

Collosals Page 72 - Intercessor Kreoss

Vengers - Elite Cadre - Vengers Gain Signs and portents.

Add in Death Sentence, Holy Ward and Ignite mmm smashy!!

[cryptomancer]

Love Vengers. Blessed comes up more often than you'd think (it's fun to say "Nope." to a cocky Cygnar player who thinks themselves secure in their typical Arcane Shield shenanigans). Their threat is fantastic. My foes tend to go after them with a vengeance (heh) because they know how dangerous they can be, which of course ups their hitting power and gives them Pathfinder.

They're a fantastic Ignite target as well. Damaged, they are doing P+S:18 Blessed charge attacks at MAT:9? How can you not love that?

Defenders Ward turns them into some of the highest DEF/ARM cavalry in the game. They're as hard to hit as Raptors, as hard to damage as Defensive Line Uhlans.

That said, they come with a hefty price tag, both in points and dollars. They're fragile too, those five damage boxes being easy enought to work through. And Vengers suffer from having the weakest horsies in the game (last time I checked. Could be wrong on that point). BUT, they're MAT:7 horsies, which ain't bad.

-crypto

[wazatdingder]

I think vengers are solid. With DW they are beasts. I do not think they need be in every list and I do not think more than 1 unit will ever roll with Kr3oss.

[regleant]

I find them very situational and rarely "make their points back." That said, I do run them in my Kreoss2 list because they lessen the model count and really pay off on feat turn. They rarely get in the charge, though, and most opponents I've faced will just throw a jack their way, which they can't really hurt. Also, MAT 7 on an Impact Attack isn't very reliable.

For 11 points, what else could you buy? A lot.... so make sure they are filling a niche you need in your list.

[jandrese]

They're boss with the Testament since you get to revive them and keep making charges when the inevitably die after their charge turn, and his feat is unbelievable with them. Otherwise I sadly don't play them very much. They do offer something we can't really get any other way (high accuracy fast hard hitting flank unit), but it's a lot of points to spend and they've really got to be exceptional to justify their cost.

[Luthon]

I could never field more than the minimal for them. Their really lackluster and compare them to the other cavalry they aren't that great. Though Kr3oss makes them powerful I'm hesistant if I want to buy another box of them for his theme list.

[jandrese]

I also like a minimum unit with the Harbinger. They're one of the best bodyguards for her because they don't have to die until she wants them to, and they're fast enough that they can be in the battle in just one turn. They're also a serious threat to any caster with a 15" threat range and 3 dice to hit with MAT 9 and ignoring any spell effects that buff DEF or ARM.

[Cannotcope]

My last several games have been pretty decent. See sig (quoted below in case I change it)

Vengers Kills: Typhon, Earthborn, eHexeris, Angelius, Mauler, Axer

Note that those kills are over the last 6 games I've used them. The Angelius, Mauler and Axer kills did come with some external help (other damage sources), the other kills are all on fresh undamaged targets and none required more than 3 charging Vengers (though admittedly I had gained Battle Driven in all cases). There were also various infantry kills (kriel warriors, deathstalkers, etc...) that aren't listed. The Amon kill I have listed for my Vessel of Judgement was started by Vengers, and they likely would have had the kill if I had only rolled decent hit rolls (missing 2 of three attacks needing 7s).

I can't say I've done anything really special, other than somewhat spread out and watch threat ranges. I try to make sure my opponent can't kill all of them in one turn, and also that they are positioned where my opponent will try to kill some, because he figures Battle Driven on 3-4 is not as bad as getting charged by all 5.

Thyra makes them somewhat stupid good against Hordes.
The Testament is nice for Revive. Ashen Veil is also pretty decent on them, depending on opponent.
pSevy and Eye of Menoth makes everything better (MAT 8, POW 11 impacts, and MAT 10 charges at a possible P+S 17).
Anyone with Ignite helps, as IIRC, that boosts impact attacks (could be wrong here) but is also just useful for potential MAT 9 P+S 18s.
Vindictus, Harby and Thyra can increase their threat range.
eKreoss' feat can be nice too, but you'll need to make the most of their movement cause the free attack is from their sword and therefore lacks reach.
High Reclaimer can feat back the whole unit (assuming any part of the unit was left on the board), and set them up in perfect charge lanes.

[BanzaiZAP]

I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but most of what I could say I already said in the Canon. In short, I love 'em.

Vengers follow the Menite Rule: We don't get bells and whistles. What we get looks boring. If you don't use them properly, they'll be "meh." If you take the time to learn to use them with all the right support and attention, they can wreck face with the best. The biggest drawback is that 11 pts is a hefty chunk of any army, and they do not hit nearly as hard as you want them to. Plus sinking that much cash into models with a steep learning curve (not to mention assembly/painting nightmares) is not "fun" for many.

If you're opponent is "throwing jacks at them"... if they are throwing lights, then you should be charging them and trashing the lights. If they throw heavies, how can a heavy 'jack keep up with a 16" run? The only time a heavy jack hits my Vengers is because I put them there. If they do go after the horses, then they've just pulled a heavy warjack off the front line.

[Claptrap]

I've had mixed results with them. They've never been worthless, but they haven't always been worth the points. Generally, the difference is based on how well I've positioned them. Too far out on the flank, and they get picked off before they reach a target. Too close in on the flank, and they get swarmed by infantry and bogged down and die. But when they work, they're magic. I've had a min unit charging in from the flank, mowing down my opponents second (and third) ranks with impact attacks, then continuing on to their targets, leaving lots of and lots of empty space for my front line to charge the enemy caster.

I only own a min unit, which is usually fine for the 35 point games that we are running. Lately, though, I've been running Gravus a little behind them, using the Vengers as a Gravus delivery system. If my opponent kills the horses, all they get is some face time with a very angry High Exemplar.

I run this group a couple of ways:

1 -- Threaten the flank. Pretty standard, really. I deploy them on the side and run them up the flank on my first turn. Worst case, the enemy has to move something over to cover them, pulling his stuff out of formation. The best case is that you kill whatever he moved to intercept and have a clear charge on his 'caster/'lock. Oddly enough, I find this works really well with pBob. The Vengers and Gravus function as an independant group that can effectively operate outside of Bob's miniscule control range. Battle Driven buffs them, Gravus snags the souls that pBob misses. Plus, at feat time, the Vengers' command is large enough that you can usually bring some of them back, so they can give more souls to Gravus.

Fun Variation -- If the other guy has a lot of AD, I set them up on a flank to force him to cover them with some of his AD. On turn 1, I run them 16" to the other flank. Then proceed as normal on turn 2.

2 -- I use them as a rapid resoponse team. I deploy them center back of my line, and walk them up behind the front line on turn 1. The second turn, if part of my line is crumbling, they charge over to shore it up. If I've punched a hole, they can charge through it to take advantage of the opportunity.

Of course, they worked better when I had a little practice Proper use of Vengers does take some time to learn, but they can add a bit of punch and variety in some of my lists..

[cryptomancer]

Oh, it should of course be mentioned that plenty of times they will not be effective. Mk2 Cavalry are pretty fragile. Be prepared for them to die plenty as you learn to use them. And plenty afterward, too.

-crypto

[Craaag]

DW or Ashen veil with rhupert's +1 def buff = DEF 15 Vengers! Thinking of trying them today with Thyra and stealth plus Rhupert, as normally I don't like using them against shooty opponents and today is Cygnar possibly.