Karchev ?????

[journeymanbob]

In what world is Karchev in any way balanced to other casters??????

sorry needed that. As you may guess I played against Karchev for the first time yesterday. he is WAY powerful and with that tow and rage spell his Behemoth tore right threw my army and left meuseless in 1 turn. Khador as I was told was supposed to have the weakness of being slow but it seems that they are faster than any thing I haveon the field.

sorry again still a little distrubed On to the question. how doea Cygnar handle Karchev/behemoth??????

thank you for any help here.

[veragor1206]

Here's a few ideas...

Ecaine.

Hunters rip him and his jacks to shreds.

Atgms are very use full

Ehaley can dominate and a fully loaded Storm clad bonded often works well

Enemo stops him in his tracks

I'm sure there's more but off the top of my head that's what I have, sorry for the smartphone reply... lol Tiny screen and all

[sourclams]

Why is eCaine a good choice against a low-Def/highARM 32 box target? You need 6 shots before you even start damaging a Tow-camping Karchev.

Siege, pHaley, eHaley, eStryker

[Lalnuir]

Why is eCaine a good choice against a low-Def/highARM 32 box target? You need 6 shots before you even start damaging a Tow-camping Karchev.

Siege, pHaley, eHaley, eStryker

Because taking Caine without a damage buff is blasphemy, any +2 damage buff bumps Caines output on feat turn to ridiculous levels. eEiryss always helps against focus campers and enemy upkeeps.
You don't always have to try killing your opponents caster every game you can simply blow up their army instead.

But yeah the others are good against Karchev too.

[leo_neil316]

Why is eCaine a good choice against a low-Def/highARM 32 box target? You need 6 shots before you even start damaging a Tow-camping Karchev.

Siege, pHaley, eHaley, eStryker

If he's got tow upkept he doesn't have sidearms, which means eyriss hits him on silly low dice.

Then ecaine pops feat. First shot is dice - 7. So no damage.

Second is dice - 6. 1 damage.
Third is dice - 5. 3 damage.
Fourth is dice - 4. 6 damage.
Fifth is dice - 3. 10 damage.
Sixth is dice - 2. 15 damage.
Seventh is dice - 1. 21 damage.
Eighth is dice - 0. 28 damage.
Ninth is dice + 1. 36 damage.
Tenth shot is dice + 2. 45 damage.

eCaine gets 8 shots by himself, and can get an extra 1 from rienholdt, and 1 from the squire.

[veragor1206]

Bar a colossal I was under the impression Caine was easilly capable of killing anything in the game,with the support of his auto include support models.

[Pydracor]

How about Nemo with Voltaic Snare?

[Iceman8352]

eHaley can cast Time Bomb on one of the 'jacks, and then pretty much all models in that formation suffer -2 SPD. She can also Dominate/Telekinesis Karchev's 'jacks backwards and facing away so they aren't in base-to-base with Karchev anymore. If the 'jacks aren't in base-to-base with Karchev, than they aren't able to get towed. And if they are having to spend their movements to get back to Karchev for a tow, then they aren't charging or attacking you after the tow.

[Iceman8352]

How about Nemo with Voltaic Snare?

I'd thought about this, but there are some problems with it. First, the warjack hit can still be towed. Then, even though it can't run or charge, it could move up or away four inches (Provided no SPD buffs). At this point, other 'jacks that were being towed could possibly activate normally. It's not a horrible idea, but if you're playing against someone that knows how to properly use Karchev, then it isn't as big a problem for them as we might hope. Sorry if feels like I'm shooting you down, I've just had this problem happen to me multiple times.

[Iceman8352]

How about Nemo with Voltaic Snare?

I'd thought about this, but there are some problems with it. First, the warjack hit can still be towed. Then, even though it can't run or charge, it could move up or away four inches (Provided no SPD buffs). At this point, other 'jacks that were being towed could possibly activate normally. It's not a horrible idea, but if you're playing against someone that knows how to properly use Karchev, then it isn't as big a problem for them as we might hope. Sorry if feels like I'm shooting you down, I've just had this problem happen to me multiple times.

[Pydracor]

Then, even though it can't run or charge, it could move up or away four inches

No, a voltaic-snared Jack can't move at all. But of course you're right, it can still be towed and the other Jacks probably can be placed thus, that they are out of the 3" effect of the voltaic-snared Jack...

[Lalnuir]

Bar a colossal I was under the impression Caine was easilly capable of killing anything in the game,with the support of his auto include support models.

When you include his groupies Caine can kill anything not hiding in a swamp on feat turn including colossals.

[Steamwitch]

I think you may have just been taken aback by spechal K. Unless you are cherrypicking your army he has a 50% chance to be a problem. But he was running a behemoth? I have never taken any of the big ticket jacks with k just because unerathly rage is a waste on fewer than 3 jacks. I mowtly rin him with juggernaught or destroyers. K has 2 play styles both jck heavy. One is the powerslide im sure you saw this one already it involves tow and flipping his butt out at you so his jacks screen him. The second is the gun boat with bombards and tow and side arms the jacks still move out of activation but get an aiming boon so rat 6. K can acctually kite a reasonably fast army like this. But beyond that k is really dependant on the player thats playing him. But as most posters say. X can beat him. All i have to say about that is i hope you have it. Most karchev players bring a koldune lord and greylord clouds and mechanicks to undistrupt, repair, and cover. Im not saying k's unbeatable mind you.

[John of Arc]

Khador is not a slow faction. Just get that out of your head right now. They have access to tons of speed buffs, and are generally faster than Cygnar if they want to be. Secondly, the Behemoth ripped through your entire army in one turn? What point level were you playing at? Because Karchev is overpowered at really low point levels- almost as overpowered as eCaine. The fact that he really only affects about three models in his army means he doesn't scale up all that well. So if the Behemoth is single handedly ripping through your whole army, then you either need better positioning so that he can't do that, or you need to play at a point level where losing a single warjack doesn't cripple you. As far as Karchev's weakness goes, just shoot him. It can take a lot to bring him down, but its really hard to screen him thanks to his large base, so you can put damage on him every turn. Lastly, play scenario. eEiryss, depending on your army, may be necessary to break a focus camping Karchev. Scenario means you don't have to bother. You can always just kill his warjacks, ignore him, and slam him out of a zone or whatever. He looks overpowered on paper, but as long as you're not playing 15 point games and you approach him differently than other casters, you can deal with him.

[Da-Rock]

Well, always a lot of good ideas, but really you just need to keep it simple.

Karchev in Jack Brick of gunboat brings a lot of high armor and many health boxes. It takes a ton of damage to blast through all that................so don't!

Take 1 part eStryker, sprinkle 2 parts tarpit and a dash of support solos = ignore his entire list and assassinate Karchev! eStryker can almost one shot him with the right rolls.

Even without eStryker you can kill Karchev by ignoring his army. My Jarl and Bomber,Impaler,Pyre list killed him at the top of turn 3 without touching a single other model. (sweet dice help this of course)

[Yaum]

Last time I faced Big K, I was running eHaley. Like others have said, she just ruins the day for Karchev. Poor guy never stood a chance.

[journeymanbob]

Khador is not a slow faction. Just get that out of your head right now. They have access to tons of speed buffs, and are generally faster than Cygnar if they want to be. Secondly, the Behemoth ripped through your entire army in one turn? What point level were you playing at? Because Karchev is overpowered at really low point levels- almost as overpowered as eCaine. The fact that he really only affects about three models in his army means he doesn't scale up all that well. So if the Behemoth is single handedly ripping through your whole army, then you either need better positioning so that he can't do that, or you need to play at a point level where losing a single warjack doesn't cripple you. As far as Karchev's weakness goes, just shoot him. It can take a lot to bring him down, but its really hard to screen him thanks to his large base, so you can put damage on him every turn. Lastly, play scenario. eEiryss, depending on your army, may be necessary to break a focus camping Karchev. Scenario means you don't have to bother. You can always just kill his warjacks, ignore him, and slam him out of a zone or whatever. He looks overpowered on paper, but as long as you're not playing 15 point games and you approach him differently than other casters, you can deal with him.

Sorry was in a hurry this mornig Big B tore threw a hammersmith with two hits. then bombarded a couple of stormblades, not the whole army(bad wording on my part). we were at 35pts the opponent brought Karchev, Big B, Sprigand, The one with the frost ax and 5 Demo core troopers.

[Lalnuir]

Last time I faced Big K, I was running eHaley. Like others have said, she just ruins the day for Karchev. Poor guy never stood a chance.

Is it wrong that your sig remind me of . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlicWUDf5MM

[journeymanbob]

Last time I faced Big K, I was running eHaley. Like others have said, she just ruins the day for Karchev. Poor guy never stood a chance.

Please treat me as a big fat Noob. How does Ehaley give him the bad day????? I see the models at my disposal but I fail to see the light.

[journeymanbob]

double post sorry

[Lalnuir]

Please treat me as a big fat Noob. How does Ehaley give him the bad day????? I see the models at my disposal but I fail to see the light.

SPD4 models don't like -2 SPD debuffs or being moved 2" and turned around.
Also haleys feat messes up so many things.

[journeymanbob]

Bar a colossal I was under the impression Caine was easilly capable of killing anything in the game,with the support of his auto include support models.

anouther Noob question what are ECaines auto includes????

[John of Arc]

Making Karchev activate last is hilarious. Also, a single time bomb ruins his entire day, with -2 speed to him and his jack buddies. Remember that any speed debuffs prevent charging, so he won't bother powersliding unless you're something like 8 inches away :P

For the record, OP, I feel your pain. I've had to deal with Karchev... A lot. And its not very fun. But you can beat him, and eventually when you get comfortable fighting him he can be pretty managable. Good luck!

[Lalnuir]

anouther Noob question what are ECaines auto includes????

At least one model that can buff his damage ie Aiyana/gorman/ragman.(Not as good as the others but with Caines high rat and rangers can work)
eEiryss
Rienholt
Squire

B13 tags along very often to finish off models he has damaged or to drop a fire beacon so Caine doesn't have to cast true sight.
Ol'rowdy is almost an auto-include with Caine, not that he offers too much outside easy access to knockdown but he runs for free to can screen Caine pretty well.

Might of missed someone, too much alcohol makes thinking difficult.

[Penguin616]

anouther Noob question what are ECaines auto includes????

Reinholdt and squire for the extra two shots
eEiryss for removing upkeeps, spells and focus from the enemy

[Juggernautie]

Apply Stormwall, Stormclad, stormblades, Jr and Nemo3. AS from Jr to Stormclad. Failsafe on Stormwall with Finch upkeeing it. Nemo3 gives out 2 foc to stormwall, 1 to stormclad. Get 1 focus to stormclad from stormblades. Then Fitch gives 1 focus to both of them. Also distrupt them.

Apply Stormwall and Phaley with Temporal Barrier. No charging Stormwall and -2 def to her control area. Feed Karchev to the Stormwall. Shoot Karchev on the way in, through pods in his way?

[journeymanbob]

Apply Stormwall, Stormclad, stormblades, Jr and Nemo3. AS from Jr to Stormclad. Failsafe on Stormwall with Finch upkeeing it. Nemo3 gives out 2 foc to stormwall, 1 to stormclad. Get 1 focus to stormclad from stormblades. Then Fitch gives 1 focus to both of them. Also distrupt them.

Apply Stormwall and Phaley with Temporal Barrier. No charging Stormwall and -2 def to her control area. Feed Karchev to the Stormwall. Shoot Karchev on the way in, through pods in his way?

do not yet have the rather pricy Stormwall still trying to finish out my trooper base. but thanks for the advise.

[journeymanbob]

Reinholdt and squire for the extra two shots
eEiryss for removing upkeeps, spells and focus from the enemy

please correct me if I am wrong but are not Reinholdt and Squire both Warcaster attachments and can not warcasters only have one attachment??

[watchgeorgerock]

remember he cant charge and turn around as he must center his facing on the target he has charged. He also cant cast a spell and run. I see a lot Karchev players mess up both of those basic rules

[Ysthrall]

I have also had issues with Karchev's brick. His capacity to go:

1st turn, on the center line with three jacks,
2nd turn, in your deployment zone with three jacks under unearthly rage

is realy annoying. My usual Karchev opponent fields him with Spriggan, Juggernaut and Destroyer, so he can shoot up Stormblades et al, get the charge most of the time with the Spriggan, and have the Juggernaut to block charge lanes to Karchev. It's a real pain, but I haven't played against it for a while, and hopefully should be able to handle it next time or two.

I don't see hunters being very useful. You get perhaps 2 rounds of shooting, which will cripple or destroy (if lucky) one heavy jack. Karchev can happily a Hunter shot or two to keep all his jacks running at your face, and will hide behind them as much as posible.

The ATGM only work for knockback/down if they aren't all base to base and backed up by something to stop them being pushed. And Sidearms allows him to brick up very well, if slowly.

I'll need to try using ENemo on him, for his gun, Polarity field, etc. EStryker, on my recent luck, would get the charge lane, overboost for massive POW and minimal STR, and then spend all his focus failing to hit Karchev in combat.

Given that few of his charging jacks (apart from that darn Spriggan) tend to have reach, I'm thinking a Storm Strider might be a nice idea... Anyone had any success with this against him?

[ZombieWar]

reinholdt is not an attachment

[John of Arc]

Apply Stormwall, Stormclad, stormblades, Jr and Nemo3. AS from Jr to Stormclad. Failsafe on Stormwall with Finch upkeeing it. Nemo3 gives out 2 foc to stormwall, 1 to stormclad. Get 1 focus to stormclad from stormblades. Then Fitch gives 1 focus to both of them. Also distrupt them.

Apply Stormwall and Phaley with Temporal Barrier. No charging Stormwall and -2 def to her control area. Feed Karchev to the Stormwall. Shoot Karchev on the way in, through pods in his way?

I feel like you'd get more switching those two around. Due to the way colossal grids are spread out, a Stormclad is more likely to lose a system or two, and therefore benefit more from Failsafe. Stormwall has many more boxes, allowing you to maximize the benefit of that extra point of armor that Arcane Shield gives. I'm top of that, if your Stormclad loses its left arm, Failsafe is actually the equivalent of Arcane Shield, due to it restoring the buckler.

[journeymanbob]

reinholdt is not an attachment

can you do me one other favor? talking about Reinholdt I have had this model for years but almost never play him due to my lack of knowledge. how does he work?? if he uses reload does the caster have to stay next to him or can they then move away from him?

[ZombieWar]

you just need reinholdt to be b2b with the caster during reinholdts activation. you can then activate the caster and move wherever you would like and use the benefit.

[Varius]

I've found eNemo does fairly well against Karchev. Reinhold and Nemo can negate two of his jacks. Polarity shield/Centurion make for a frustrated feat turn. Storm Smiths will keep any real damage from your heavies, or keep his heavies from throwing each other around to get out of the tractor beam. Force field prevents any deviations or thrown warjacks from hurting Nemo. And the damage buff nemo gives helps crack the armor. Use gun mages to keep his jacks clumped (not that you need to with tow, but just in case).

After that just whittle down him or his jacks with some hunters or apply a few heavies. Play it right and you will have a very frustrated Karchev player.

[Drogmir]

Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't Siege theoretically use Foxhole to drop any warjacks in front of him to get LOS. Pop feat then go crazy on him?

[Trollicious]

Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't Siege theoretically use Foxhole to drop any warjacks in front of him to get LOS. Pop feat then go crazy on him?

Yup. Cygnar should typically eat Karchev for breakfast. The only way he's really going to be a problem, is if you don't know what he can do with Tow.
I would actually recommend pEiryss. You can run her with a pCaine and have snipe on her to tag the big guy, then pop feat and surround him with a pair of stormclads.
Both Nemo's ruin his day with their abilities to cripple jacks.
pHaley shuts down his ability to charge, eHaley can pretty much keep him or his jacks locked down all game, and has that jack bullet that can deal some serious hurt to big K.
eStryker can be bold enough to camp focus+AS and run up at him (so long as he stays out of karchev's charge range, he should be fine.) Even under the ideal conditions of tow-feat-unearthly rage, the behemoth will only have 4 attacks that will hit half the time and are at dice minus 11 to damage.
Sloan may have some problems with that many health boxes, but she should be able to stay out of charge range to pop shots off and refuge away
Siege has foxhole/feat combo and should be able to put some serious hurt on karchev or his jacks from a good distance away.
Kraye can spam hunters with light cav and really tear down his jacks quickly, while keeping their distance. All the while, he can be keeping the jack bullet ready to shoot in any holes they can make.

[Juggernautie]

I feel like you'd get more switching those two around. Due to the way colossal grids are spread out, a Stormclad is more likely to lose a system or two, and therefore benefit more from Failsafe. Stormwall has many more boxes, allowing you to maximize the benefit of that extra point of armor that Arcane Shield gives. I'm top of that, if your Stormclad loses its left arm, Failsafe is actually the equivalent of Arcane Shield, due to it restoring the buckler.

Great point. I love the forums. This one is great, as I love and play Cygnar. But I am also considering a 2nd army and Karchev is my favorite non-Cygnar caster. Karchev and 5 bezerkers sounds like a lot of fun.

[leo_neil316]

Bar a colossal I was under the impression Caine was easilly capable of killing anything in the game,with the support of his auto include support models.

With rustbomb and harm then you're starting at POW 16 effectively.

Against hyperion thats a -3(4 damage), -2(9 damage), -1(15 damage), 0(22 damage), +1 (30 damage), +2 (39 damage), +3(49 damage), +4(60 damage), +5 (72 damage), +6 (85 damage). It's only got 64 boxes.

Conquest has one higher ARM, so takes 75 damage. It had 62? 64?

Basically with rust bomb and harm with his full load of shots Caine can kill any model that rust bomb works on.

And he can do 65 damage past ARM 19 with just harm.