So seriously... Legion

[PG_LEJKaya]

So theres no doubt Legion of Everblight are our toughest matchup. The Wilding Way has some good stuff but is now quite old so I thought it'd be good to play catchup and see what people are tying these days to counter our nemesis.


Back in the day my go-to was pBaldur. His feat is good ( does not ignore cover) and he can put beasts to ARM where legions beast shooting is lessened, Megaliths healing and stones can counter the little damage and Baldur can happily be on fire usually. The feat also stops the real heavy hitters from getting the drop on you (An angelius or seraph are not going to take out a heavy where a scythean or carnivean will).

Since then we got Baldur 2 who can keep ARM high enough across the board to help mitigate their shooting but he does struggle actually killing their beasts since Legion beasts are just plain better than circle beasts (For defensive ability, remember tenacity!) and circle are famously pillow fisted. Baldur has no way to buff damage output so Legion beasts actually out tank us.
Also one of the main reasons Baldur2 was good is totally countered by the Naga.

Wills Morvahna list was a totally new way of playing Morvahna for a lot of us. The list is almost totally shooting impervious, which really helps and even legion struggle to deal with those Bloodtrackers. In my experience Epic Lylyth can kill the full unit on feat turn, other than that Legion cannot kill them all even ignoring stealth and the like and even then, keeping one model right back out of range helps regrow a unit and you can get good use from them. The witchdoctor will really help here. Undead, tough bloodtrackers that regrow will be awesome, its going to rocket this list to top tier.
Sadly, as soon as this list started to show up on the international radar, PP gave legion the counter. If one of your opponents lists is eVayl, purification is still an auto lose. Basically as soon as we had this list which is almost an even match, Legion got the perfect hard counter to her.

eKrueger is my latest attempt. Stormwall is a good spell for shutting down legion shooting and his feat can buy you time or set up a strike. He can use guardians too who can tank most legion attacks and are good enough to take out the big heavies but simply cant hit the flyers.
Sadly I really like eKrueger to be my warmachine counter. He assassinates like nobodys business with pEiryss and disruption is awesome.
His main defense also simply doesn't work against eLylyths feat, expect to just lose that turn if you forget!



Druids can be a good legion counter, they can be immune to beast shooting again and counter magic also stops a lot of the legion big nasty tricks like rampaging a beast out to be killed, hoarfrost and the like.
Sadly, PP must have known this because they inexplicably gave their main shooting unit Hunter. Striders are a perfect druid counter, if you can't deal with striders your druids will just be dead turn 2.
For this reason I'm thinking of pKrueger too, he can chain lightning the striders, keeping druids intact to tank shooting, also with good use of chain lightning, feat or even tornado you can scalpel out legion support pieces like shepherds, forsaken and now the succubus.
Getting Krueger right out front to feat on support pieces is dangerous but between lightning strike and shifting stones its usually possible to get him back to safety.


Finally, there is the battle engine. It will be killed by any legion beast (Even their lights!) in melee, so you need to shield it but being immune to shooting is still good. Remember healing and things like shield guard for it, they really help. Its one of the best BEs offensively, 3 really good shots is great and the different types (AoE, Spray and leap) mean you always have something tricksy to try. It only really shines against beasts with Curse of Shadows but will happily take out loads of infantry so team it with druids to kill striders and be immune to fire.


These are just some random thoughts, so I want to hear what other people are doing to counter our worst matchup. I spoke to Circle players at the UK masters and one suggested eKaya for uber long threat and piece trading... I havent tried that yet so what else is out there?

[PaintVagrant]

Neutralyze got beat by Cassius (piloted by Crump). Not sure what to think anymore.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Crump is some kind of savant?

I'm waiting for the podcast and video of that, I hope cassius has some tricks...and ...wait what?

[Gobos]

Thankfully, there is very little Legion in my meta. Nevertheless, last autumn on Polish nationals I played 4/6 games against Legion, and won 3 of them, all using Grayle.
I'm not sure why it did so well, I think the key models were LotF and Ravagers. LotF is great for killing the support solos to reduce the amount of Fury Legion beast can use (without Shepherds and Forsaken they'll start to frenzy), while Ravagers provided accurate attacks and formed a first wave that Legion had to deal with, allowing me to position my Warbeasts for a counter.
I have a feeling pKrueger might be a good choice against legion. Now that we have Gallows groves our warlocks can play enough backfield to reduce the assassination threat.
Looking forward to see what others have come up when facing legion, especially how Crump managed to beat Neutralyze with Cassius...

[LoserX]

So my friend plays legion (the caster in the Battlebox can't remember her name) and i play Grayle and am having a hell of a time, would you have any advice for a newer player (lol i can't use that excuse for ever i suppose)?

[Mattho2k3]

Cassius vs Legion isn't a good matchup but not impossible. Their melee beast hate Stranglehold and if they have multiple Ravagores leaving 5 souls on Wurmwood isn't the worst thing in the world. If you need the extra fury for Cassius that I'd fine but try to make sure Wurmwood is full on souls. Don't be afraid to kill your own models just for the extra souls. I've found Stranglehold on Ravagores to be usefull as well. It prevents them from moving back and shooting.

[PG_fildrigar]

Circle beasts are often called pillow fisted, but take a close look at the Legion beasts. The Carni goes highest, with a P+S of 18. Their casters have about a similar number of +STR buffs, but they lack access to a +STR Animus like Primal. Legion does have an even easier time running beast heavy, and often their solution to other heavies is to send two heavies after one. ( Or soften a heavy up first with Ravagore shots. )

[Warcaster Feiss]

Since I'm trying (failing, lately) to leave Baldur1 on the shelf, my latest anti-Legion project is Krueger1. Chain Lightning bounced off a Blackclad or a Shifting Stone is handy for thinning the numbers of Striders & Hex Hunters, as well as bouncing it off their 'beasts to take out Shepherds and the like.

Skyborne gives Krueger1 a passable defence vs Ravagore shooting (providing you deny them an aiming bonus, they're hitting him on 12's, which is slightly above average), better still if you can get him in cover. Lylyth2 is always going to be the hardest match-up, but I think if you can take out the Striders + UA early on with Chain Lightning, it becomes hard for Legion to pop the Counter Magic bubble, meaning Krueger can't be Ice Caged / Kiss of Lyliss'ed / Pincushioned, which can go a long way to keeping him relatively safe.

That's my plan in any case!

I've yet to decide if I want to throw in a Wold Guardian with him, Flesh of Clay could make him safer yet and Lightning Tendrils on a Wold Guardian would help it get into the fight. So far I've not, as the low DEF of Constructs makes them bait for Ravagore shots, even when benefitting from cover, whereas something like a Stalker in cover is much harder for Ravagores to land a hit on.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Druids also counter Hex Hunters pretty well too.

Also remember a Wold Guardian with animus up is laughing at ravagore shots, I consider them our best weapon against legion.

[Bloodwind]

Ram + Lightening Tendrils can make for some tasty fun. It's more effective against warmachine because shaking sucks for them (so if you can build this list to counter fast warmachine armies too, you're set); and you can knock down two heavies which are up to 7" apart.

My favorite scenario involves walking the Guardian with LT through a unit of heavy infantry, knocking them all down and wrecking their shield wall.

[SillySod]

eKrueger is my warlock of choice.

I run him with Megalith, a guardian, and as many wardens as I can cram into the points limit along with two units of shifting stones and some light infantry support. Legion really hates this list.

Wardens are really good with eKrueger because they have access to telekinesis, gallows, and lightning storm. TK is obviously stunning and gives you a really solid heavy vs heavy piece trading game. Lightning storm is important because it proivides you with a huge crowd control tool - three or four lightning storms can completely shut down light infantry. Gallows is just a nice spell to have and gives you a few extra angles and options. Wardens alsocome with a ton of damage boxes and a reasonable ARM which makes them very durble against shooting.

Megalith is great because he is a warden. However, he is also steady, hits hard, and gives you a heap of neat little combo options to help you win the heavy trading game (weight of stone + feat = -5SPD, etc). Not to mention a stunning animus.

The guardian... you can figure that out I'm sure.

So the beast loadout is good because it is...
- durable (vs shooting)
- flexible (can take on infantry, can take on heavies)
- steady (krueger can hide behind megalith/guardian all day long)
- shenanigans (TK everywhere helps win scenarios)

eKrueger is important for...
- transforming the warden into a viable heavy
- mega-feat
- fast, resilient, nice gun, just being all around good and having no real flaws

Storm wall is a neat spell but I regard it as a situational bonus rather than a major asset. Its easy to cast early on so you can stick it out there and let your opponent figure out if it actually matters. Handy.

Then stones, woldstalkers, trackers, solos, etc are useful for all the normal reasons. They round out the list, deal with medium infantry, help win scenarios, and screen against opponents who can out-threat the heavies.

You've probably noticed that the list lacks a little hitting power. In general that doesnt matter. The list still has a great game against heavies because of all the movement effects that are going on. You can afford to have all your beasts line up to wail on just one target. Unfortunately the advent of both Tiberion and colossals means that this probably isnt an option any more. Hence I'm planning to try and fit in a feral as well as a gorax, possibly even two ferals. My hope is that a warp armour feral could be just about durable enough that I can get away with it. A thrullg or bloodweavers might not go amiss either.

Anyway, lets examine the legion matchups:
eLylyth, other ranged assassins - nomnomnom, this list eats her for breakfast
pThagrosh, bricktacular bricks - hmm, not a perfect matchup but thagrosh will be sweating when it comes to actually reaching you with his heavies so it will come down to precise list composition and the scenario
Saeryn - eKrueger is almost the perfect counter and the rest of the list doesnt care about most of her spells
pVayl - ??? incite is big and she is full of tricks and things as well as being hard to assassinate. She can struggle at scenario play though and incite is hard to use while remaining safe.
eVayl - ??? On the plus side purification is irrelevent but being bombarded with refuge angelii seems like a whole heap of not much fun.

Out of all the casters I think that pVayl and eVayl are the ones that make the Circle vs Legion matchup difficult.

We have other casters that are good against legion too. Morvahna is mostly excellent but has serious issues with eLylyth (who can wipe out the regrowth unit) and eVayl (purification) so its hard to tout her as a serious answer to the legion question.

/ramble


Edit: Seraphs are quite an important aspect of eKrueger vs Legion matchups because slipstream cancles out the huge debuffing effect you can create with telekinesis.

[Bradigus]

I actually like eBaldur against Legion. The Naga doesn't see much play. The Woldguardian's Flesh of Clay really shuts down their shooting. And none of the Legion beasts can take out a Wold with Roots of the Earth on it. I try to move in and engage as quickly as I can and take the counter strike. The next turn I can finish off beasts.

Lord of the Feast is great for taking out support models like Shepherds and Forsaken. Bloodtrackers are always good against Legion. You just have to use them differently. Keep them back until you can engage those beasts to prevent shooting then the BT's can slaughter infantry.

[PG_fildrigar]

I actually like eBaldur against Legion. The Naga doesn't see much play. The Woldguardian's Flesh of Clay really shuts down their shooting. And none of the Legion beasts can take out a Wold with Roots of the Earth on it. I try to move in and engage as quickly as I can and take the counter strike. The next turn I can finish off beasts.

Lord of the Feast is great for taking out support models like Shepherds and Forsaken. Bloodtrackers are always good against Legion. You just have to use them differently. Keep them back until you can engage those beasts to prevent shooting then the BT's can slaughter infantry.

The Naga doesn't see much play because it isn't out yet. Many Legion players are salivating at the prospects of fielding one. Expect them to see a good bit of play when they're released.

[Joeb]

So what is the power level of Legion compared to Circle? I'm seriously thinking about splitting the 2 player starter and I'm not sure which one I like more - except that the LoE Archangel looks awesome.

[ringsnake]

I have just about zero success against Legion, but the local Legion player is very good. I think I'd have zero success against him no matter what army he played.

Legion is our worst matchup. Our army uses a lot of stealth, and they have ranged beasts with powerful attacks and eyeless sight. We have hunters and forest creation. They have eyeless sight and pathfinder. Many of our defensive bonuses are high DEF from clouds and concealment. Again, eyeless sight! We're a generally pillowfisted faction with a few notable exceptions, and they have 11+ point heavies that have armor boosts and/or healing.

That said, Legion is not all powerful, they have bad matchups of their own. A skilled Circle player should have a good chance against them.

Personally, I think Mohsar is perfectly suited to deal with them, and a Mohsar list kitted up for dealing with Legion can do a solid job against most other Hordes factions. Legion players hate Pillars and Sunhammer, and it's amusing to have a warlock that has eyeless sight. Thanks to Bestial Kromac is also very good, because Legion uses a massive pile of magical attacks, but they generally don't have too much trouble taking out the Druid's unit leader to shut down spell ward.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Legion laugh at pillars. They have loads of fire attacks.

[redcap71]

My eBaldur list is giving our local legion player fits I run 2 sets of stones, 2 wold wyrds 2 Wold Guardians and a megalith with a full unit of gatormen. He has a hard time with it. I may have to trade out a Guardian for stalker in the future.

[ShoX]

So what is the power level of Legion compared to Circle? I'm seriously thinking about splitting the 2 player starter and I'm not sure which one I like more - except that the LoE Archangel looks awesome.

I guess that comes down to what you play. eLylyth Can be piloted easy enough, just shoot stuff until your opponrnt runs out of stuff. At some point that either will have been enough or you die horrible deaths in melee.
Other casters require a circleesque understanding of movement shenannigans.

To me they seem to see eye to eye as far as power levels are concerned, but circle has nothing that pilots as easy as Lylyth, so you might enjoy your first steps with legion a lot more than circle.

[Griffin745]

Legion laugh at pillars. They have loads of fire attacks.

Yes Legion just destroy the pillars, but that is a beasts activation to shoot the thing down. Not too bad seeing as the beast could have been shooting our actual army no? I can't think of anything outside a beast that has access to ranged fire attacks. Mohsars Feat can be brutally wonderful against a typical beast heavy Legion list and Curse of Shadows means we have an easy time bypassing the front line with the Stalker we just put Mirage on last turn. Sunhammer really punishes the lessers (about the only thing that will be worried about d3 damage a turn) for even thinking about moving.

Mohsar is my go to guy when I know I'm against legion for a very good reason. You just can't play him in the Pillars of Salt defensive mode. You have to push hard at them and get them to overcommit then punish them for that.

Thinking about it were you not testing a list that used the Ferals animus and Sentry Stone to get them to over force. Then Mohsar Feats to make it a really bad day for them? That should be a great list against Legion. Maybe not Kallus, but I've zero game time against him to know what is what.

[PG_LEJKaya]

So what is the power level of Legion compared to Circle? I'm seriously thinking about splitting the 2 player starter and I'm not sure which one I like more - except that the LoE Archangel looks awesome.

"Power Level" is not really an aplicable term to WM/H. There are elements within each faction that are more disparate than elements between any faction, if you were a scientist you'd call the whole idea moot.

However, consensus is that Legion are at the top of the pile right now, at least in hordes. That basically makes no difference in any given game however the issue we have is that Circle can be played in many ways... most of those (Alpha strike, Hit & Run, Glass Cannon...etc...) Legion are better than us at, the others (Control and stuff) Legion ignore.
So we happen to have a really bad match up where only a small percentage of our factions "Tricks" or abilities are useful and we have to win with just those.

It can be done though, I was just wondering what specific stuff people were using.

[SillySod]

In fairness I'm not sure that the Legion vs Circle matchup is "bad" per se. Its just something that you need to be aware of. Obviously you'll get crushed if you dont build lists with the matchup in mind but once you've identified the problems and avoided major pitfalls then its not so much of a problem.

IMO the problem is that the matchup seems to be very swingy - both sides are vulnerable to being massively counterlisted.

As an aside: I'm not sure that the new naga is such a huge problem for eBaldur. The animus costs fury to cast so its not going to get spammed everywhere. Throw in the nagas completely hopeless gun (vs wolds) and the whole situation feels pretty rosy. Its also worth noting that his feat cannot be bypassed since blessed only applies vs spell effects not the effects from a feat. So he can still weather a melee alpha strike just as well as before.

[PG_LEJKaya]

eBaldur does get feat turn but remember other than the feat pretty much all he does is buff 2 things and allow geomancers to buff 2 things. The Naga will never shoot anything itself, but its animus is effectively +3 POW vs eBaldur so it will get spammed.
One from the naga, one from the succubus and maybe 2 from the caster... Bad news.

Once they have this eBaldur basically becomes about as good as Jannisa, he makes walls.

[ReaVeD]

I'm mainly a Ret and Legion player but recently i also started to play some Circle. To put it simply - Legion doesn't like anything that can pull of alpha strike on them. Depending on which warlock i play i don't like to see pBaldur, Kromac and eKrueger on the other side of the table (yeah i noticed those are Will's casters from L&L ;]). pBaldur takes on shooting like a champ and his feat helps him to get alpha strike, eKrueger has some really nice movement shenanigans, his feat again really helps him in getting first strike and he can easily pull in beasts for some wolf time, out of Dark Sentinel range, Dark Shroud, Saeryn control area on feat turn and so on. Kromac has great threat ranges, buffs and Bestial can be really rough to handle for some Legion warlocks (pVayl, not to mention Beth). Of course it all comes down to player skill in the end.
Regards

[Bishop84]

Yeah, with the announcement of the two-player battle box one of my friends (and most common opponent) is looking at getting in to Legion. I've been on the receiving end of both Lylyths a few times, but haven't seen even half the stuff they can throw at me so I decided to some research.

I knew about the problems with Eyeless Sight ignoring most of our control elements, namely pBaldur/Morvahna forests and druid vortices. The druids could at least be made immune to legion beast shooting, so that was a saving grace, but still something to look out for. Suddenly I'm not as safe as I'm used to being.

Striders have hunter and much better ranged support warlocks than our own hunter unit, so that felt pretty one sided. Oh well, I guess we're not really considered a ranged faction...

Then I got into Domination. eVayl has a spell that essentially says "beats Morvahna". The Naga's animus says "reduces eBaldur to wallbot". AND it can reduce Druids to piles of green goo. It feels like they looked at Circle casters that didn't already have a hard counter in Legion, and made one. These are two of my favorite casters, and all my friend has to do is take eVayl with a Naga and he's pretty much got me beat before I even lose the initiative roll.

[santospr]

Please don't blow it out of proportion. Circle is not like Retribution where one warlock counters the whole faction. Some match ups might be tough for Circle fighting Legion, but they are far from unbeatable.

eBaldur counter's eLylyth (please use warpwolves, not wolds thank you). A fast moving Mohsar list counter's eVayl (use pillars offensively to restrict Angelius movement, feat when support is taken off the board and possibly after eVayl feats). Saeryn has eKrueger related nightmares. Kromac is great against pVayl. A pureblood can help counter pThagrosh, with the help of druid's pulling and pushing of models out of the -STR aura, blessed for spell SG.

Circle has the right tools, the eyeless sight and pathfinder limits our easy choices, but their infantry tend to lack pathfinder and ways to ignore stealth, as do their warlocks (all except Lylyths) so its not completely useless.

[PG_Draxos]

Just wondering but what was Will's Morvanna list mentioned in the OP?

Also, at this point I kinda feel Baldur1 or 2 is required to stop Legion match ups.

[Bishop84]

I'm not saying that Legion counters everything we do. There are plenty of good matchups for us. It just seems to me that there are increasingly more bad matchups and hard counters. And that fact that two of my favorite warlocks are relegated to light infantry removal and fury management by a simple caster/light beast combo is irksome.

[Walter]

Isn't the Naga literally the weakest light beast in the game? Like a 13/15 with miniscule boxes? Kill it with some trackers. Is it even released yet?

[Folha Seca]

You know, the much more I like the symbiotic Hordes system than the Warmachine one, I find that compared to Warmachine some of the factions itself in this sub-game are not that good designed. Trolls rely quite much on their "tough"-rolls, making them much more depending on dice than other factions. Legion ignoring (basically all the rules and therefore) the entire default gameplay of a whole other faction doesn't make sense to me at all.

Seriously I had this one experience in the past, when one of my regular opponents switched deliberatly from Khador to Legion to make it easier fro him to (b)eat my faction, stating Khador didn't deliver as much punch he wanted and wasn't giving him enough options to counter all my stuff. Thus faction switch.

Isn't the Naga literally the weakest light beast in the game? Like a 13/15 with miniscule boxes? ...

Yes, but if I would be a Legion player, I wouldn't play the Naga in the vanguard. I'd rather place it much more in the backyard of my army and use it as an animus slave to keep it safe from the enemies retaliation.

If your facing the Naga constantly perhaps getting the Scarsfell Griffon might be a good idea. The more I look at it, it seems to be designed to hunt down this specific warbeast.

[Snowmelter]

And again everything depends on point level.
Mohsar can play his pillar match at 35 points. The only beast that laughs at them is the seraph as he can shoot them all in one activation (if close neough together) and by far not every list on 35 points can include him. For all other beasts it is still one activation.

Naga and Sucubus are 6 points of additional support. Legion is not used to so much support. They like their shredder and fury managment and that is it. Naga comes on top of this. So on 35 points I do not expect them too often.

Before Gallows my Mohsar list was:
Mohsar the Desertwalker (*5pts)
* Gorax (4pts)
* Megalith (11pts)
* Warpwolf Stalker (10pts)
Tharn Bloodweavers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
Tharn Wolfriders (Leader and 4 Grunts) (10pts)

designed as anti-hordes. Just every entry in the list can kill a legion beast. No additional support needed. It worked brilliant, also on large scale tournaments.
I will start to work on this list again, as I want to include Gallows of course and am not sure what to drop.
eBaldur on 35 is also much stronger than on 50. As it is easier to get every model under RotE everyturn.

On 50 points we have the mentioned problem with hard counters to about everything and need two lists.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Isn't the Naga literally the weakest light beast in the game? Like a 13/15 with miniscule boxes? Kill it with some trackers. Is it even released yet?

Yes, Legion were given EXACTLY the beast they wanted. Note they didn't need it, I personally think the Naga animus is PPs biggest mistake in MkII.
However those low stats keep it down in points so that you could afford to take it just for an animus slave, it will stay back, casting its animus (And providing it to the warlock and succubus) and remaining out of reach and stealthed.
It will take massive effort to remove despite its poor stats but thse same poor stats mean you don't mind not committing it to the fight.

I'm not saying that Legion counters everything we do. There are plenty of good matchups for us.

In point of fact Legion have the upper hand except in 2 cases. The aforementioned list and Bethayne vs druids or Kromac. (Though the second list is hardly in favour of circle, just neuters her feat and the first list is hard countered by Vayl2)

[Bakemono]

Wraithbane in the hands of Legion is certainly inconvenient but I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it is the biggest mistake PP has ever made in MkII. It would be up against some pretty stiff competition there. It hurts some of our Warlocks a lot and many of them not at all. I've been used to having Wraithbane through my Purebloods for some time now and have not found it to be a game breaker.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Its not a game breaker for Circle. For Legion it makes already slightly OP warlocks better and totally removed several entire factions (At least 3) only answers to Legion. It makes legion the only faction in the game that now has no weaknesses, PP have literally filled in all their downsides with solutions.
Literally there is nothing they can't do now and on top of that it was given to them in the perfect package, there is no fat on the naga at all, nothing bad, as cheap as you can get and just enough defenses to make it just too hard to kill without significant effort.

I'd say its probably the ONLY thing I'd class as a mistake by PP in MkII. All the other releases have been well tested and balanced but this, while on its own its fine, does tip Legion into a tier above where they were.

[Bakemono]

Its not a game breaker for Circle. For Legion it makes already slightly OP warlocks better and totally removed several entire factions (At least 3) only answers to Legion. It makes legion the only faction in the game that now has no weaknesses, PP have literally filled in all their downsides with solutions.
Literally there is nothing they can't do now and on top of that it was given to them in the perfect package, there is no fat on the naga at all, nothing bad, as cheap as you can get and just enough defenses to make it just too hard to kill without significant effort.

I'd say its probably the ONLY thing I'd class as a mistake by PP in MkII. All the other releases have been well tested and balanced but this, while on its own its fine, does tip Legion into a tier above where they were.

While we disagree on some things, your evaluations of models are generally dead on. I'll withhold any further comment until I see it played a bit.

[Walter]

LEJ, I can't agree with you. I can't think of 3 whole factions whose only answer to Legion is beaten by Wraithbane on a weak light beast. I certainly can't sit in Circle and complain about Legion's warlocks. We have better locks.

As for having no weaknesses...here's a Legion weakness. They are pillowfisted. They were pillowfisted before the Naga, and they are pillowfisted now that it is here. Their best attack beast has 3 pow 17 initials (provided 2 hit), and can buy 4 more. At mat 6. They actually have the problem that everyone thinks we have. The animus of their dreams would be PRIMAL, not wraithbane.

[KhisanthMagus]

LEJ, I can't agree with you. I can't think of 3 whole factions whose only answer to Legion is beaten by Wraithbane on a weak light beast. I certainly can't sit in Circle and complain about Legion's warlocks. We have better locks.

As for having no weaknesses...here's a Legion weakness. They are pillowfisted. They were pillowfisted before the Naga, and they are pillowfisted now that it is here. Their best attack beast has 3 pow 17 initials (provided 2 hit), and can buy 4 more. At mat 6. They actually have the problem that everyone thinks we have. The animus of their dreams would be PRIMAL, not wraithbane.

Wait, Circle has better locks than Saeryn, and possibly even eLylyth? Also, while in general Legion is as pillowfisted as Circle, they have lots more ways of buffing that than Circle does. Off the top of my head...pVayl(incite, also has chilling aura to help with the mat6 issue), pThags, eThags, Absy, Kallus, pLylyth, eLylyth, and of course the Blackfrost Shard. Its interesting that one of the most powerful warlocks in the game, Saeryn, doesn't have a way to help that, although having what is probably the best feat in the game kind of makes up for that, and Breath Stealer helps with the MAT issue. And of course they have the Angelius for armor cracking, which is even more ridiculous with any of those casters. Oh, and none of those make the model useless the following turn!

Menoth and Cryx worked well against many legion lists due to the choir making their jacks immune to non-magical ranged attacks and a bunch of incorporeal models respectively. Anyone who relied on Iron Flesh(hi Khador!) is also up a creek without a paddle against a legion army with a Naga.

[Murkhadh]

LEJ, I can't agree with you. I can't think of 3 whole factions whose only answer to Legion is beaten by Wraithbane on a weak light beast. I certainly can't sit in Circle and complain about Legion's warlocks. We have better locks.

As for having no weaknesses...here's a Legion weakness. They are pillowfisted. They were pillowfisted before the Naga, and they are pillowfisted now that it is here. Their best attack beast has 3 pow 17 initials (provided 2 hit), and can buy 4 more. At mat 6. They actually have the problem that everyone thinks we have. The animus of their dreams would be PRIMAL, not wraithbane.

Ever hear of pVayl?

[Walter]

@Khisanth: Yeah, Circle has better warlocks than Legion. We've got more good locks, and the best of ours is better than the best of theirs. I could, however, see an argument that their best locks make a better steamroller pair than ours do.

@Murk: Yeah.

[VagrantPoet]

This thread is starting to trend into hyperbole.

Maybe we should identify specific Legion threats, how they cause problems for Circle and what good answers we have.

It could also be interesting to see if we could get the opinion of Legion players on Circle.

Problem: Circle relies on stealth as a defensive mechanic alot, Ravagore's are able to do a lot of damage to warpwolves (especially Stalkers) and easily able to snipe one stone from each set.

Problem: A significant amount of Circle denial comes from terrain generation, but legion beasts (which are most of a legion army) see through and move through such terrain unimpeded.

Problem: Legion are about as fast, and have enough buffs to hit just like Circle, while being able to sit back and shoot in the meantime, mostly unlike circle.

Problem: Legion have amazing fury management, and often run more beasts, so its very hard to get ahead on trades even with shenanigans which is the playstyle of many circle armies.

Possible lists:

eKreuger with wolds, druids.

The wake of destruction tier is pretty solid, eKreuger can buy the alpha, and stormwall shuts down alot of non-eLylyth shooting with striders being only range 12", and druids being immune to fire, while wold guardian's are naturally ravagore resistant. The feat is great for buying the alpha, and telekinesis is always good against armies with low model count.

Mohsar has good answers at 35 points, curse of shadows bloodweavers give us infantry that can kill beasts, pillars soak up some shooting, the feat might actually work, etc.

Any other constructive solutions? Morvahna used to be a good answer, and eBaldur could have been great, but Legion's domination releases hose both of those guys.

[PG_LEJKaya]

Yeah, Circle has better warlocks than Legion. We've got more good locks, and the best of ours is better than the best of theirs. I could, however, see an argument that their best locks make a better steamroller pair than ours do.

This is simply not true.

Circle has a lot of good warlocks, we have a lot of "A rated" casters but we have nothing even close to the top tier of warlocks in the game that Vayl1 and Saeryn (With the naga probably Lylyth2 as well) belong to. The best we have is upper A grade, they have a whole grade above the best and Circle does not have Warlocks close to that. they are a much less pillowfisted faction than Circle, Almost all their casters have buff spells and they have a caster-independant harm provider.


Wraithbane screws Menoth the most FYI, they used to be able to counter legion shooting with Choir, now they can't they have no game there.