So seriously... Legion

[PG_LEJKaya]

I see no benefit in turn 1 feat... You can put upall upkeeps or do 2 and bestial turn 1 and you are still at full capacity long before it matters.

[Icepick28]

I would say that I have good matchups vs Legion, but when my local player is Neutralyze it doesn't work, lol

[PG_fildrigar]

I would say that I have good matchups vs Legion, but when my local player is Neutralyze it doesn't work, lol

Nerf Neutralyze, not Legion!

I've mostly had pretty good success against Legion, too. But I've never played against Neutralyze.

[zlygobbo]

Hellow Guys i had won a lot of games against my opponent who have legion he is very very skilled player. whenever i won i allways used Kromac... He have answear for almost everything (exept Saeryn)...

Bud i am really strugelling agains pTagrosh. I never played against him with Kromac bud i played with other caster like pBaldur, pKruegar, eKruegar.. And i allways lost... We are palying at 50pts and he runs so beast heavy that he always outnumber me with beasts. So i have real troubles he use spiny growths which really hurs when i hit some beast with my wolfes... so i am allways trying to kill carnivean bud he just feat and put him into play again... He is using angelius, scythean , carnivean and ravagore. He have allways damn forsaken so when i kill some beast with my wolf he just come with forsaken and give to my face 6 x 6D + pow8 so it really hurts to my ghetorix.... Also Thagrosh have damn death shroud which is -2 STR... and his beasts have Arm 20 with spiny growths so even when i use primal i am not able to kill one beast in one turn... and also when i use primal i cannot use Lightning strike... So i just want to know how do you beat pThagrosh and which caster is most suitable for it? thank you....

[VagrantPoet]

Will Pagani has an eKreuger list designed for basically that purpose. He reels beasts out with spells/druids, hopefully getting them out of shroud, while using Thrullg to remove spiny growth.

It's somewhere on the boards recently.

[Gsot]

Versus Bethayne and Cryx generally I turn 1 feat. Bestial, Warpath, Wild Aggro and IR up. (IR on gnarlhorn, WA on Stalker 1).

Generally on turn 2 I want to upkeep WA, upkeep warpath and IR, cast bestial, stay on 1. Most turn 2s I haven't needed to cycle WA.

Having IR on Gnarlhorn for arm 20 counter slam zone fits in with how aggressive I generally go.

[WickedGood]

So I have mostly been thinking about the 35 point 2 list tourney game. In this format I don't think it is as bad as you may believe as long as you set yourself up for success.

It was in this format my circle got its face smashed in twice by Lilith. I went home that night and drew up an eBaldur list that has been crushing people left and right including legion. I have yet to face eVayl or the Naga yet which is probably why I have been doing so well. After reading through the arguments above I have to ask what are people seeing in the 35 point 2 list tourneys today? Or even what do we expect to see once the Naga is out? I assume the Lilith list will stay in with perhaps the addition of the Naga. Now is everyone's second list going to be eVayl?

I think in a two list format you can probably set up your opponent to take the non-Lylth list by simply takin one of our tougher warlocks (baldurs, Kromak) and a Guardian. Just by showing this list and commenting on the guardians animus you can probably get him to float to his second lock. Here was my Kromak scare tactic list:

Kromak
Guardian - Best animus against legion shooting (not nerfed by naga)
Stalker - This is our beat stick --> Throw on resolve to get armor nice and high
Wold watcher --> Takes one for the team each round
Lord of the Feasts -> Go after his striders, or shepards.
Gnarlhorn --> adds 2 inches to threat range, good armor, slam abilities
stones or blackclad --> various uses.

Can Lylith get through this list. Probably, but I think this match up favors us. Espcially if all Kromak s doing is throwing out the animus and upkeeping warpath until they are in charge range which for the stalker is a pretty impressive 6+3+2 (reach) + 2 (Bounding) + 3 (warpath) 16. +2 if you take the blackclad and get off the hunters mark.

I also think the winter argus is a nice niche touch against their assisnation runs.

[WickedGood]

So I continue to think on this and I thik eBaldur is just fine against Legion still. Especialy at 35 Points.

So the standard eLilith list will have 2 ravagores, the naga, some striders and ua and 5 points to play with.

That means on feat turn he can throw out to 22" 4 boosted to hit and damage pow 15's ignore buffs, 3 Boosted damage pow 12's ignoreing buffs, and 1 pow 17-18 (I forget if the ua has 2 bows).

So at a minimum I take eBaldur, guardian, megalyth, wold watcher, druids, stones playing at least tier 3.

If I go first I move up to the 16" line (just out of alpha strike range for his first turn.

The second turn if I go first or if he goes first is a flat out sprint to his lines (If he goes first I get +2 movement on the heavies which is nice)

So we have two possibilities:
He goes first: I full out sprint up the field. Set up at 10" I castle the guardian and Megalyth in front of eBaldur to start. I trample both forwad and Megalyth casts roots of the earth while the Guardian casts his animus. Baldur puts the stone wall in front of those two models, casts the guardians animus on himself and moves forward. The stones are ad'd in such a way to allow Baldur to then telport right in tight with the two wolds and behind them. The watcher moves up to within 2" of all of 3 of the models and goes stone form. I am effectively at the 19-20" range now from the back of my board. If he has moved up at all (which I expect to see at least to the 13" line we are now only 15-17" away.

He has to pop his feat at this turn becuase he knows now is the best time as I will have my feat next turn. He should no be able to draw line of sight to Baldur so all he can go after is one of the wolds. If he throws everything at just Megalyth he has a chance to drop it.

The wall makes it so that the aimed shots coming at me are not automatic, even bosted. As 7 on 3 dice is not guarenteed. But lets say he hits everything:
4 Pow 15's vs arm 19 (ignoring Roots) --> (10.5 - 4) X 4 = 26
3 Pow 12's vs Arm 19 (ignoring Roots) --> (10.5 -7) X 3 = 10.5
1 Pow 18 vs Arm 22 --> (7 - 1) X 1 = 6

In this I have the wold watchers ability to take one of these hits so I will take one of the ravagor hits so -6.5

Total Average Damage on Megalyth --> 36
Just enough to drop Megalyth. If he misses even one of those attacks, rolls under odds, Megalyth is still standing. (not for much longer but he is still there for now). In addition the rest of my army is still around, her feat is gone and mine is still around.

In my turn I try to take out on of the ravagores by using the druids to pull it into charge range of the Guradian. If I am a little lucky I might have megalyth still standing and in which case I will try for both. I send the LotF after the striders, I move the watcher forward to be next to where I expect Baldur, I telport the stones up next to where I expect Baldur, I move Baldur forward torwad Lylith, cast the wall in front of him, cast the guardians animus, pop my feat. I now have baldur 10-12" away from lylth.

If he stands still and fires everything he has:
1 pow 15
2 pow 12's
1 pow 18

Baldurs is now at a very impressive def 17 so I would expect one of them to miss but even if they don't the damage is:
(7 - 5) = 2
(7 - 8) X 2 = -2
(3.5 - 2) = 1.5

Baldur can take this level of damage for a couple of turns until he can get close enough to Lylith. To be perfectly honest the opponent is better off shooting one of the stones to reduce Baldur's threat range.

Have I missed something?

Against Vayl. I don't see people taking the massive shooting armies but if they did I would need to rerun the numbers to see if that matters to Baldur.

[Bishop84]

You know, it just occurred to me that Winter Coat is a more niche but pretty much all around worse version of Spiny Growth. If the Winter Argus was a Dire Argus and had Spiny Growth instead, Domination would have felt a lot less one sided.

[Scottl1]

You know, it just occurred to me that Winter Coat is a more niche but pretty much all around worse version of Spiny Growth. If the Winter Argus was a Dire Argus and had Spiny Growth instead, Domination would have felt a lot less one sided.

Why would that be a good idea? 2 out of 5 horde factions already have it. Every faction doesn't need the same stuff.

[SillySod]

Domination was pretty good to us. Dont pretend otherwise.

[Warcaster Feiss]

Have I missed something?

Possibly. I wouldn't expect Druids to do much of anything against Lylyth2, Shadow Pack pretty much writes off their ability to reel in heavies for the killing.

[Bishop84]

Domination was pretty good to us. Dont pretend otherwise.

We got good stuff. I'm not denying that. But we also gave away 3 of our best (well, 2 IMHO. I've always hated Primal) and unique animi that were a good portion of what made us and how we play. When everyone else gets our tricks and we don't get any tricks in return, it waters us down.

[SillySod]

"Giving away" animi is a very negative way of looking at things.

We dont lose anything when another faction gains access to one of our animi. Instead, that other faction gets stronger or at least has more options. We are still a completely unique faction... a couple more enemy models having sprint hardly begins to touch on our dizzying array of gimmicks.

We did get more gimmicks too. It wasnt a one way trade.

[Bakemono]

"Giving away" animi is a very negative way of looking at things.

We dont lose anything when another faction gains access to one of our animi. Instead, that other faction gets stronger or at least has more options. We are still a completely unique faction... a couple more enemy models having sprint hardly begins to touch on our dizzying array of gimmicks.

We did get more gimmicks too. It wasnt a one way trade.

I agree there is no reason to be entirely negative on it, but I will say that we did not get a good trade this time around. The Self Animus we got are marginal at best. I could go two more books never seeing another Self Animus and it would still be too soon. If they had given Ghetorix Spiny Growth, however, I might have been impressed. That at least would have been a fair trade and quite a bit more useful than Ornery. I'm not gloom and doom on anything, but I hope we win the next season of giveaways rather than being everyone's Secret Santa.

[SillySod]

There was more to Domination than animi

[Patuljak]

^This. eBaldur, Grayle, Ghetorix, Fulcrum, Groves...all really solid, if not great. I do wish we'd get our character unit already, though. I agree that some new animi would add to our shenanigans, but I feel we have such a good array of competing animi already that we'd need something really great to appreciate it. It's hard to compete with Primal and Lightning Strike.

[Bakemono]

There was more to Domination than animi

Not much that floated my boat. Aside from another armor cracker in the form of Ghetorix and the addition of the Gallows Grove, I wasn't particularly helped or impressed. I considered the book a gain, but our net gain versus the expansion of our opponent's arsenal (at least in my opinion) wasn't exactly equitable. I'm not weeping into my beer but I am not impressed by the Griffon or the Winter Argus. The new Warlocks aren't bad but they don't really go well with me.

[SillySod]

Dont forget the witch doctor. That was a pretty big gain. Slaughterhousers arent bad either, although they will be useful for multiple factions.

We did get some bunk but everyone got some of that

[Bishop84]

If they had given Ghetorix Spiny Growth, however, I might have been impressed. That at least would have been a fair trade and quite a bit more useful than Ornery.

Whoa, that would have been a bit insane. Especially if he kept Unyielding. Although now that I think about it, the fact that he has Unyielding might just preclude us from ever getting any sort of non-self armor increasing animus. I doubt they're ever gonna let us run around with a DEF 14, ARM 23 heavy warbeast when combined with one of our ARM boosting warlocks.

Dont forget the witch doctor. That was a pretty big gain. Slaughterhousers arent bad either, although they will be useful for multiple factions.

I don't count minions/mercenaries when I look at what the main factions gained over all for two reasons:

1. Multiple factions can use them, so they don't really give an edge to anyone in particular.

2. I don't use them. I play faction pure.

If some of the biggest highlights of a book's releases are the minions we got access too, that's just sad.

[Bakemono]

Whoa, that would have been a bit insane. Especially if he kept Unyielding. Although now that I think about it, the fact that he has Unyielding might just preclude us from ever getting any sort of non-self armor increasing animus. I doubt they're ever gonna let us run around with a DEF 14, ARM 23 heavy warbeast when combined with one of our ARM boosting warlocks.

I don't consider it insane at all. There are other Factions that have a way of tanking up likewise, and that is what we are talking about here: crossover stuff from faction to faction. If they are going to start giving away our neato tricks, it seems fair enough to want a few back ourselves. Besides, Ghetorix is a unique character so his getting to be as tough as a Mulg on any given sunday is really beside the point. Which other Faction got Forced Evolution again?

[SillySod]

I don't count minions/mercenaries when I look at what the main factions gained over all for two reasons:

1. Multiple factions can use them, so they don't really give an edge to anyone in particular.

2. I don't use them. I play faction pure.

1 - Not every model is useful to every faction. The witch doctor hands out a buff that is really strong for circle but which other factions arent too concerned about. Plus its supercrucial for Morvahna - a zombified regrowth unit is almost twice as durable as your standard regrowth target.

2 - Then you have no reason to complain about anything, ever. Dont expect other people to care about self imposed handicaps.

[Scottl1]

Can she have regrowth on a unit being targeted by the witch doctors buff? Her spell says target a living model.

[SillySod]

Can she have regrowth on a unit being targeted by the witch doctors buff? Her spell says target a living model.

Morvahna can target a small based living unit. That unit can then be zombified without issue - regrowth does not expire because the restrictions only apply when the spell is cast.

Its a truly astonishing upgrade for her, suddenly the unit becomes:
- tough
- fearless
- immune to a whole bunch of RFP effects
- immune to all kinds of miscellaneous stuff, such as Rasheth's feat.

I've got a little article looking at her role as a top tier tournament warlock in the new meta with a witch doctor and colossals... but it isnt ready just yet

[Bishop84]

2 - Then you have no reason to complain about anything, ever. Dont expect other people to care about self imposed handicaps.

Hah. A game system where playing faction pure is handicapped is a failure of a game system. For the record, I don't think Warmahordes has this problem. Each faction has the tools to get the job done without resorting to min/mercs.

However, I can complain when other factions get the tools we like to use on a regular basis, and we don't get a fair return of new tools to compensate. If I were to complain that "Faction X" got a huge bump because of "Minion Y" and refuse the use Minion Y myself, then I would just be asinine. I'm not doing that.

[Bakemono]

I don't play "pure" because the odd Thrullg, Swamp Gobbers unit, or Totem Hunter does make my list from time to time, but I hardly think that is evidence of a failed game system. I think the system functions very well. We are waiting to see the impact of the Colossals and their coming Hordes counterparts. They will, doubtless, shake things up. That is all well and good. I do think they should have been FA:1 but I'll keep an open mind and see how it plays out. I also hope that should the Cygnar Colossal with Temporal Barrier prove broken beyond all measure, that Privateer will do something about it. I think it is just too early to tell.

[Bishop84]

I don't play "pure" because the odd Thrullg, Swamp Gobbers unit, or Totem Hunter does make my list from time to time, but I hardly think that is evidence of a failed game system. I think the system functions very well.

Like I said, I don't think Warmahordes has the problems of relying on min/mercs. You want to use a few, that's fine. But if someone doesn't use those, it's not like you're going to roll over them. I think you misunderstood my stance.

[Bakemono]

Like I said, I don't think Warmahordes has the problems of relying on min/mercs. You want to use a few, that's fine. But if someone doesn't use those, it's not like you're going to roll over them. I think you misunderstood my stance.

My apologies. That is always a danger when reading fast and posting from work.

[Ignus]

Hey guys, I didn't want to start up a brand new thread on basically the same subject while this was on the front page, so I figure I'd ask here.

My friend has convinced me to check out Hordes after getting kinda frustrated with Warhammer and GW in general.

He likes Legion, and after looking at some Warmachine and Hordes armies, I decided that the Circle is where I wanna be.

He plans on using pThagrosh as his Warlock, and running Typhon at 25 points, which is what we're aiming at for the first little bit. My question is: Will I be outclassed (maybe disadvantaged is a better word) by running eKaya against this? She's the one Warlock I really like so far (she likes big wolves, I like big wolves), with eBaldur being not too far behind.

I'm not trying to come up with a list to counter his, I just want to have a list that is balanced against his army so we can both learn the game at a good pace.

Apologies if this isn't the right thread for this.

[ChaosE]

You could probably make your own thread for this to get a better response, but I would argue that playing circle vs legion is actually a pretty bad way to get a proper sense of the game as a whole. I find myself playing quite differently vs the dragons because they negate many of our defenses (eg: in your case, you will get way less use out of shadowpack compared to battles with other factions). His battlegroup leans a bit towards cheesy for a low point game (both thag and typhon are hard to deal with at low points) so feel free to let him know! eBaldur might do better, as he can can typically take a few hits, and legion crumples pretty easily if you can survive their alpha strike.
The problem is that if you're starting an army, Kaya and Baldur are about as different as you can get in what you will be buying (one being very much about furries, the other very much construct) so they may not match well if you want to grow slowly.

Some things to think about. Don't let me discourage you from picking anything up, but those things are worth keeping in mind.

[Bakemono]

Hey guys, I didn't want to start up a brand new thread on basically the same subject while this was on the front page, so I figure I'd ask here.

My friend has convinced me to check out Hordes after getting kinda frustrated with Warhammer and GW in general.

He likes Legion, and after looking at some Warmachine and Hordes armies, I decided that the Circle is where I wanna be.

He plans on using pThagrosh as his Warlock, and running Typhon at 25 points, which is what we're aiming at for the first little bit. My question is: Will I be outclassed (maybe disadvantaged is a better word) by running eKaya against this? She's the one Warlock I really like so far (she likes big wolves, I like big wolves), with eBaldur being not too far behind.

I'm not trying to come up with a list to counter his, I just want to have a list that is balanced against his army so we can both learn the game at a good pace.

Apologies if this isn't the right thread for this.

If I recall correctly, P-Thagrosh's Feat brings a Warbeast back from the dead. In low point games that is huge. It isn't unbeatable but you are basically going to swap feats. You are going to alpha strike and kill at least one Heavy and redeploy via Kaya's feat and then he is going to bring one back. It can easily end up a wash unless you make sure you get two Beasts.

[Ignus]

You could probably make your own thread for this to get a better response, but I would argue that playing circle vs legion is actually a pretty bad way to get a proper sense of the game as a whole. I find myself playing quite differently vs the dragons because they negate many of our defenses (eg: in your case, you will get way less use out of shadowpack compared to battles with other factions). His battlegroup leans a bit towards cheesy for a low point game (both thag and typhon are hard to deal with at low points) so feel free to let him know! eBaldur might do better, as he can can typically take a few hits, and legion crumples pretty easily if you can survive their alpha strike.
The problem is that if you're starting an army, Kaya and Baldur are about as different as you can get in what you will be buying (one being very much about furries, the other very much construct) so they may not match well if you want to grow slowly.

Some things to think about. Don't let me discourage you from picking anything up, but those things are worth keeping in mind.

Yeah I'd definitely be getting one or another, and probably not picking up the other for a long time. I'm leaning towards eKaya though. I'm not the biggest fan of the constructs.

If I recall correctly, P-Thagrosh's Feat brings a Warbeast back from the dead. In low point games that is huge. It isn't unbeatable but you are basically going to swap feats. You are going to alpha strike and kill at least one Heavy and redeploy via Kaya's feat and then he is going to bring one back. It can easily end up a wash unless you make sure you get two Beasts.

In the 25 point list I'm not sure if I'll be running 3 beasts, or 2 beasts and stones/druids. I'll have to look around some more.

Good to see that this might not be an "auto-lose" match up, and I don't mind a challenge. In my moment of weakness I checked out Skorne, and was almost sold on it, but giant Warpwolves are hard to argue with.

[ChaosE]

The beauty of Warmahordes is that nothing is really an "auto-lose" . The game is remarkably well balanced. Muzzle will help you a lot, especially if your friend is dumping all hit points into a big beast like Typhon. As long as you plink it with Kaya, you can just about lock the beast down entirely. This is huge because it lets you control how you engage him. A nice combo with that might be a Gnarlhorn Satyr. Let typhon move up, then hit him with muzzle and slam him back up to 10", leaving him knocked down and locked down, since he cant move any closer to your caster.
Remember, you get +2 move and free slams from Dogpile, and the Gnarlhorn's animus gives him an additional +2 move. On top of that, so you can slam things 13" away...if you're feeling beardy you can even bring a Wayfarer for 2 points, which can mark the target and get you 2 more inches. That's 15" Slams and charges, and because of Dogpile you don't need to see your target to do it. Most units cant even shoot that far. Usually you dont want to move that far away from your caster, but with eKaya's feat, you can move outside of your control area and still force, and move back to safety.

[Bishop84]

Remember, you get +2 move and free slams from Dogpile

More importantly, remember that eKaya has Alpha and her beasts Run, Charge, Slam, and Trample for free. You only need Dog Pile if you need the extra 2" movement, pathfinder, or the ability to ignore LOS. That's a lot of great stuff all in one spell, but not always necessary.

[SillySod]

Gnarlhorns also slam for free in any case.