Skorne too predictable?

[Pixelcycle]

I just recently bought the skorne 25 point bundle in the summer sale as well as a few other things (most notably a bronzeback.) I was playing my first few games and marveling how you can basically just point the bronzeback or a gladiator at an enemy model and it evaporates when one of the more experienced players at the game store made a comment along the lines of "yeah, the BB and gladiator are great but skorne is boring because you always need them and there's no other competitive ways to play skorne."

How valid is this? I was browsing the lists and saw most of them contained either a gladiator or a bronzeback. Is this just part of the faction as a whole? Does it make Skorne too predictable in tournaments?

Thanks in advance!

[PG_Noble Rain]

Although I don't have much experience with Skorne, I can tell you that I always see those two guys on the table (often one beside the other). They just offer great synergie and options (having 2 open fists and the slam thingy...). However, I try my best to put different things on the table, mainly cyclops. It's harder to win but hey, I like the models better.

[PG_dungeongod]

Honestly, this is no different than other factions. Most Protectorate players argue you need a reckoner or a vanquisher to be competitive, and how many circle lists don't have a stalker? Or legion lists without an Angelius or a Ravagore?

That said, I find that most of my players in my local meta HATE my Skorne, because they never know what they are going to see. Also, the BB is one of our only heavy hitters right now. As that shifts with Gargantuans coming (hoping for a good Titan...) it will be interesting to see how it comes together.

For less predictability, play a Zaal or a Hexeris1 list, for instance. I seldom take many beasts (if any beyond fury management) in those, and especially not in my Mordikaar lists. While it has some predictability, I find that it is as predictable, or less predictable, than other hordes factions are right now.

[PG_yaro86ster]

Skorne has many tricks in the sleve.
You will find often gladiator because of his animi which is golden.
Every caster has his own way- my Zaal doesn't have neither of them.
Just try some other warlock and you may find that bronzeback is not priority.

[Rynth]

"yeah, the BB and gladiator are great but skorne is boring because you always need them and there's no other competitive ways to play skorne."

How valid is this? I was browsing the lists and saw most of them contained either a gladiator or a bronzeback. Is this just part of the faction as a whole? Does it make Skorne too predictable in tournaments?

IMO, its wrong, but its right.
Skorne is a synergy faction that focus on warbeasts. Point for point we get our best accuracy and damage from our beasts. The Bronzeback puts out more damage than any other non-character and the Gladiator isn't far behind so of course many of our games "devolve" into attempts to deliver our beasts. However, most factions have a small stable of models that they spend their game trying to deliver. A lot of Cryx is all about delivering a 5 focus Deathjack, Haley2 is all about dropping a Stormclad in your lap, Circle wants to deliver a Stalker or Ghetorix, etc. Are all those factions/caster are too predictable in tournaments? Of course not.

Gladiator and Bronzeback aren't required, but they are really good.

If you feel the faction is boring then change up your list building. Maybe instead of the Bronzeback and Gladiator try running two Archidons and a Drake. Same points, and still able to kill most things, but faster, harder to protect against, more angles of approach and more Fury for your warlock. Maybe a pair of Sentries or Cannoneers? One of each? Skorne doesn't hurt for solid beast options, and with a plan all can be made to work.

[PG_carnage4u]

Skorne can and does Beast heavy very well. You can use some very effective cookie cutter lists and do well.

Howerver, you can do other type lists as well - Zaal allows for you to successful infantry spam. Mordikaar gives you an interesting attrition game, and does well with a mix of beats and infantry.

[Pixelcycle]

I want to clarify that personally I don't find Skorne boring at all to play. It could be because my warmachine factions are mercs and a little bit of cygnar and so I'm enjoying making things disappear with titans. I was more curious to know if there was anything beyond that in the faction, which it sounds like there is. I haven't even tried any warlocks beyond pmorghoul yet so I still have plenty of things to try out. Also there's very few (possibly zero) Skorne players in my area so I wondered if it was related to the guy's comment that they all would get bored with the faction and leave to do something supposedly more interesting to play.

[Junn Khan]

Replace Bronzeback with Molik Karn. Then, when their agonizing pleas for mercy have grown tiresome to your ears, bring back the Bronzeback.

Drop the Titan, put in a Archidon, so you still have pathfinder on a beast. Then for fun add in an agonzier to neuter warjacks.

The point is we have lots of models that are dirty, and while the BB and Gladiator are good, they are not the end all be all of the faction. And if you still want to use them, which is entirely understandable and cool, ask about the Journeyman warcaster, winterguard, the choir, bile thralls, diretrolls, shifting stones, shredders, and what ever mercs field.

[Junn Khan]

I want to clarify that personally I don't find Skorne boring at all to play. It could be because my warmachine factions are mercs and a little bit of cygnar and so I'm enjoying making things disappear with titans. I was more curious to know if there was anything beyond that in the faction, which it sounds like there is. I haven't even tried any warlocks beyond pmorghoul yet so I still have plenty of things to try out. Also there's very few (possibly zero) Skorne players in my area so I wondered if it was related to the guy's comment that they all would get bored with the faction and leave to do something supposedly more interesting to play.

I suppose if they got tired of smashing the crap out of models in melee, then you would get bored. Absent that, then I see a staggering lack of imagination rather than a flaw in the faction.

[Triumph Of Man]

"yeah, the BB and gladiator are great but skorne is boring because you always need them and there's no other competitive ways to play skorne."

Your buddy really doesn't know what he's talking about.

[SteakAndSpirits]

One of the reasons that Skorne is tricky is because of their dynamic allocation of abilities. Things like the Extoller, TC, or the Rush animus from the Titan -- They allow Skorne to prep their army to attack from different angles. For example, that critical blow could from a Cannoneer outfitted with Eyeless Sight, or maybe a slam engineered by a Titan that's suddenly slamming through a forrest unimpeded. Or the imfamous Molik Karn, sidestepping around an entire army formation.

What IS NOT tricky about Skorne is that they almost always bring melee superiority, and opponents will become intimately familiar with that fact if they stick around long enough.

What IS tricky about Skorne is their over-the-board turn to turn options.

-s&s

[Hasten]

In addition to what's mentioned above, our more recent releases have given more love to our ranged game. If you're bringing two Cannoneers and a Cyclops Reaver, for instance, there's not much need for the Gladiator's Rush. So, while the Gladiator + X melee heavy + Y melee heavy is a solid setup for a list, it's not the only game in town.

-H

[Darque]

Encourage him to continue in his underestimation of Skorne and use that to crush him utterly.

Things like Drake spam, Molik Bullet, eMorghoul's Can't touch this, and the Naaresh deployment system with Fury refilling tends to be over looked by people. To their utter demise.

[Stuh42l]

Yes, the BB is predictable, but it is one model. The synergies you put with it or without it, and the rest of your army, is utterly not predictable!


Unless you count winning... that gets pretty predictable

[Martez]

everything that has been said here is true, i can assure you no-one in my meta thinks my skorne are predictable or non-competitive, its mostly as others said filling with withering looks and sighs of what im putting down.

i rarely play with my BB these days, and do not always use my Glads, although there is somthing funny in playing a 25pt list with Fatty and taking 4 with some beast handlers ( Tier List )

But with Zaal, i usually side with ranged beasts to cover my infantry advancing, a couple of cannoneers with extollers to back them up is not something to take lightly and when i get my new cyclops it will be all the funnier

And to be truthful, even when i take my glads and BB`s the lock i use changes how i apply them greatly, PMorg is a very direct smashing for example but when i play Xerxis i use them as a second line attack force letting my Cata`s do their thing and have hte beasts put hte foot in when everything is engaged to my satisfaction

[Mukmeguil]

I don't find bronzeback or titan a requirement at all. It's simply a very solid model that will fit well in just about any list. Skorne can deal quite well with high armor target and heavy warbeast are not a necessity in themself. I often run a lot of Cyclop or a large amount of drake. The low cost of those light warbeast lets you have more infantry or more support.

If you mostly play 50-75 points game you will most likely see a bronzeback or gladiator in most game. It's simply a very good warbeast and it does not requires much support, making it a good choice for high points games.

[Mukmeguil]

I don't find bronzeback or titan a requirement at all. It's simply a very solid model that will fit well in just about any list. Skorne can deal quite well with high armor target and heavy warbeast are not a necessity in themself. I often run a lot of Cyclop or a large amount of drake. The low cost of those light warbeast lets you have more infantry or more support.

If you mostly play 50-75 points game you will most likely see a bronzeback or gladiator in most game. It's simply a very good warbeast and it does not requires much support, making it a good choice for high points games.

[Sygerrik]

Nothing in the game puts out as much doom as a Bronzeback. The only competitor is Mulg and he gets close on a case-by-case basis depending on support and caster, but if you factor in casters then the BB under Xerxis, Naaresh or Zaal is in the lead by a mile. This is a model that can and will total two or three healthy heavy warjacks in a single activation with the right buffs.
So, yeah. He shows up a lot.

[Pixelcycle]

Thanks for the responses. I'm certainly not going to stop using the Bronzeback just because other people cry doom but it's nice to know I can play around with other stuff and still make some good lists.

[nathrax]

Replace Bronzeback with Molik Karn. Then, when their agonizing pleas for mercy have grown tiresome to your ears, bring back the Bronzeback.

That's the truth

[beakerkd]

I have been using Xer with no heavies and its been working really well. I will say when I start to see colossal's more the BB will be around a lot more. Even heard of ppl moving their Colossal away because a BB got with in 12inc of it.

But yeah a change of caster can really mix up skorne try eHex since you can go a more ranged or phex and watch as your opponent gets his troops wiped out with his own troops ( Its so funny).

[tehhelios]

Personally i think its becase many casters would struggle with armor otherwise. No cheap weapon masters, armor piercing or jack hunter stuff etc, you have to bring a titan in many cases.

[Kurgash]

Skorne does get predictable. I mean, when a Bronzeback gets to hug little timmy the warcaster, it's bad touch for all of us.

[Asomdeus]

I'm a troll player, but I play against a lot of Skorne, and yeah my buddy uses his BB or Titan a lot, but no more than I use my Mauler or Earthborn. They are just solid heavy hitters that add a great animus to the army, an easy include.

[genix]

The original comment was regarding Skorne being 'boring' due to including a predictable loadout when played competitively. I dont play competitively.

BUT I do follow the tournaments and I like looking up lists to see what works well for the top players. In my rather casual eye it would seem that min-maxing your performance at a competitive level would probably lead to common list structures.

I'm guessing a seasoned tournament player could be told any competitive warcaster/lock in the game and rattle off 80% of a 50pt list that is likely to support said caster at a competition level. I suspect it is this way for all factions.

EDIT: and I don't think its a bad thing either. BB and Glad do what they do because they fill a role. We don't need multiple choices for that same role, and its a role we often need to fill. We have things which fill other roles. We just dont need those roles filled as often. Every game I've ever played has had this. Essentially: not all roles are created equal

[various]

Not a massive amount of experience with Skorne but i don't think that they're predicatble. Every Faction has a model/unit that's nearly mandatory: be it Banes (of either flavour) or DeathJack to site two examples from my other Faction. i like to mix it up and don't take things too seriously. It's a case of basic roles (like other people have said) and having a several models fill the same role of cornerstone would leave less room for interesting stuff to add from a design point of view. You don't need a BB Titan to win but i'm yet to field a force without a Gladiator, although i am considering Naaresh's Tier list which won't allow Heavy Beasts with a SP more than 5.

[Triumph Of Man]

Not a massive amount of experience with Skorne but i don't think that they're predicatble. Every Faction has a model/unit that's nearly mandatory: be it Banes (of either flavour) or DeathJack to site two examples from my other Faction. i like to mix it up and don't take things too seriously. It's a case of basic roles (like other people have said) and having a several models fill the same role of cornerstone would leave less room for interesting stuff to add from a design point of view. You don't need a BB Titan to win but i'm yet to field a force without a Gladiator, although i am considering Naaresh's Tier list which won't allow Heavy Beasts with a SP more than 5.

Zaal doesn't need Gladiators, Xerxis doesn't need Gladiators. Go look at the gencon lists for skorne from last year.

[gaminguy]

I generally field in combos: Glad + BB/Karn/Tibbers/Archidon, Sentry + Tibbers, Cannoneer x2 + Raider, Archidon x3, or occasionally a Basilisk swarm or Savage x2 + Rhinondon. Usually with a support light (Krea, Shaman, Brute) depending on the list. Even without deveating from those combos that's a lot of flexibility.

[Kenton]

As others have said, there are many options. I use between 1 and 5 heavies in 50 points. That's a lot of variety!

Recently I've played a lot without using a BB. Still, at least it's not a Skorne is just MK thread

[Jaradakar]

Overall your friends comment seemed to be a non-serious off handed remark, that tries to belittle Skorne as a one trick pony -- which I think is far from the truth. He obviously has taken a Bronzeback to the face, hence not a fan of our melee power ;-)

[Demonster]

Shame you can't have the Gladiator or Bronzeback pointed at your opponent and watch them disappear. 1 part of the reason I always find myself fielding these 2 together is because I love the heavy melee casualty count and the sheer force of destruction they unleash. Seriously, which one of us don't enjoy running our titans with Rush and watching it travel further than Khador? Cuz I know I do! It's fun imo, but it is always good to hide those tricks because sometimes people forget what you can really do, so your opponent probably just hasn't developed a good strategy against it. Superior stats at decent point costs, I don't mind running them in almost every list I make. Shiz niz happens in war, so expect a full beating from a Bronzeback and Gladiator at some point.

[Pixelcycle]

I haven't even tried Molik Karn yet and I've already gotten comments from people at my lgs about playing the Molik Karn faction.

[esbad77]

ask that guy to play u and bring

xeris
bronzeback x3
titan glad

beast handlers

Play this and try and tell me you dont have fun. Also as a tyrant you dont care what ur enemy say they r just hopes and dreams waiting to be crushed.

[jettzypher]

I haven't even tried Molik Karn yet and I've already gotten comments from people at my lgs about playing the Molik Karn faction.

karn is cheeky, but he really isnt the be-all of the faction. theres so many other ways to play this faction successfully without him.

[eReinholdt]

You can always check out the Archidon, MK has been mentioned, and Tiberion will be out soonish, too. Skorne beat face, and the glad and bronzeback just happen to be the face-beatiest dudes around. If any of them are Cryx players with banes you can tell them to get out. Or Khador with a winter guard death star. Or Retribution with a mage hunter strike force. Or legion with multiple Ravagores. Just sayin'.

[Sethos]

If you're worried that you'll feel you HAVE to field a BB and Gladiator combo to win, then you might find this post to be a good read

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...-the-Gladiator

[Sethos]

Double Post

[gaminguy]

I had fun with that experiment.

[various]

Don't have Zaal or Xerxis so haven't come across those list builds yet. Did say that haven't got heaps of Skorne xp. The Gladiator is nice and solid, especially for the cost. At prsent the main reason that i haven't experimented with other builds is down to model count: i've got three Heavies (and the third was only added a few weeks ago when the resin Titan kit came out).

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

I had fun with that experiment.

Yeah, I'm starting to have the same feelings. My gladiator has to watch his friend the Archidon have a lot of fun while he's sitting in the back passing out animi. Its a hefty tax at 8 pts. Thinking about benching him for the next few games and sneaking in the cannoneer.