Exemplar Cinerators?

[oconnor0]

From what I've heard and read, it seems like the Exemplar Cinerators don't get that much use. Why is that? How are they worse, better, or different than their other options?

[mactac]

I have 15 of them and love them to death.
I run them not all of them mind you, with a vessel of judgement. (5 per vessel)
Once stuff starts to hit the fan and people group up they usually kill one person,
then get to zombie to kill some more. Then fire goes everywhere lol!

[Motleycruedood]

The issue with Cinerators is that they are not as good as our other medium base infantry, the Bastion. While yes they have that cool speed buff, its just not as good as the bastions reach+ health pool ability. Also the Cinirator special ability on their swords that causes stuff to burst into flames when they kill things, doesn't happen all that often.

[oconnor0]

I have 15 of them and love them to death.
I run them not all of them mind you, with a vessel of judgement. (5 per vessel)
Once stuff starts to hit the fan and people group up they usually kill one person,
then get to zombie to kill some more. Then fire goes everywhere lol!

How do you run them with a Vessel of Judgement? What's the synergy/combo/etc?

[oconnor0]

The issue with Cinerators is that they are not as good as our other medium base infantry, the Bastion. While yes they have that cool speed buff, its just not as good as the bastions reach+ health pool ability. Also the Cinirator special ability on their swords that causes stuff to burst into flames when they kill things, doesn't happen all that often.

Is it the case the Bastions are always better than Cinerators or are there situations where the reverse is true?

[jandrese]

The biggest problem is that the Bastions have a pretty awesome denial ability in Sanguine Bond that the +1 ARM on the Cinerators just can't hold a candle to. The lack of Reach on the Cinnies is also a major problem. Reach is one of the best abilities in the game, so when you have two nearly identical units and one has Reach and the other doesn't, the non-reach guys need something awesome to make up for it. Flame Burst is not nearly awesome enough to count.

[jandrese]

Is it the case the Bastions are always better than Cinerators or are there situations where the reverse is true?

Theoretically there are situations where the Cinerators are better, but in practice they are quite rare. Cinerators can kill a lot more enemies per turn than Bastions with greater threat range, but that requires your opponent to be completely unaware of what Cinerators do. That is their biggest problem in fact, their effectiveness is entirely dependent on your opponent not taking some rather basic precautions and being poor at estimating threat ranges.

[Fish76]

Cue darisus...

[Alzer]

I picked up some Bastions and I've been proxying back and forth to Cinerators with them. Pretty much every time I run the Cinerators I look down and discover I really needed reach, and the ability to share damage across the squad.

I Like the look of Cinerators more (just a tiny bit) but Bastions just work for me and Cinerators don't. Part of this may be that I've run Bastions with Vindictus and I haven't tried Cinerators with him. 11" charges on those halberds makes me happy.

Give them both a try and decide for yourself. You may end up loving Cinerators, you may prefer the Bastions.

[Bishop84]

I tend more towards the Cinerators myself. I love the health pool of the Bastions, but I find the Cinerators get where I need them to go better.

I very rarely get the charge off with either one of them, and usually just end up running to get a ranged threat locked in melee. Bastions running have a 10" threat. Cinerators running with their speed bump have a 12.5" threat. It makes my opponent not want to shoot them, which is fine by me because I end up with a full strength unit in his front lines.

I love the psychological effect that Exemplar and Cinerators have. My opponent wants to kill my stuff, but he knows that any damage he causes just makes the others worse for him.

[Errant_knight]

Try using them both at the same time just like the fluff. Cinerators up front clearing the way followed up by bastions to clean up the rest.

I have had some success doing this but it really depends on what the opponent brings to the table.

[darisus]

Cue darisus...

What?!? Who me?

In all seriousness, i do have a love of Cinerators that suprises alot of people, who all seem to me to love bastions. At this point though my opinion on them is well documented in several threads and stickied as a tactica, so i really am not going to jump on and go the rounds yet again...

Play both, see which you like better, then play them!

p.s. Don't let the bastion's lemming followers bias you too much, they really are different units with different playstyles!

[Alzer]

p.s. Don't let the bastion's lemming followers bias you too much, they really are different units with different playstyles!

This is a very important note. Between the two Bastions did what I was looking for in my Medium-based-Exemplar-unit. Cinerators are too smart for me (Or require too much mental effort perhaps).

[Pixl]

How do you run them with a Vessel of Judgement? What's the synergy/combo/etc?

The vessles miracle "doors of judgement". Rush one cinerator up and block the way for the enemy. If they kill him he can then make a full advance (+2 spd since the unit got damaged) and can make one attack. If they dont kill him he can keep moving up and kill stuff.

Nice to see someone falling for it, I would just engage the cinerator and NOT kill him at first so he can stand there and cry

[LordGrimlok]

Quick Question re: Flame burst. If I use doors of judgement and actually happen to kill an enemy model, does flame burst still occur? I can't recall if it only happens during its activation.

[jandrese]

Flame Burst has no time restriction, it happens whenever you box a model. Be aware though that the enemy models won't make the fire checks until their turn rolls around again, so you'll have a conundrum on your turn: Attack the guy on fire and maybe waste the attack if he would have died from the fire anyway, or don't attack him and have him possibly survive if the fire goes out.

[hausdorff space]

...slightly off-topic question: are there (m)any players out there making us of Cinerator/Bastion heavy lists?

I was just looking over the stats and they seem to have comparatively better stats than MoW; and there's a ton of players out there crazy about MoW lists but I don't recall ever seeing much about a PoM equivalent?

[Grenedier]

Vindictus is my main warcaster, so what I love to do is use one unit of Cinerators followed by one unit of Bastions and cycle Defender's Ward on the two. The Cinerators go first at def 13 arm 19 (!!!) which, when coupled with True Path and their speed buff (cause my meta is really ranged heavy, so they will be taking hits on their way) they can charge 11 inches or run 12, and once they're engaged they usually don't go anywhere for a while. With Flame Burst they're lighting my usual opponents favourite shield walled units pretty easily, considering there are only five of them. I used to really dislike them (only got them because of the two-player battle box) but now that I use them with Vindictus I really like them. They're tough, and Vindictus makes them both tougher and faster, and they get to ignore difficult terrain. If you bring Rhupert you can give them Tough, or plus 1 defense, and still ignore difficult terrain because of True Path. If nothing else they become an incredibly durable shield for my Bastions, with armor just as high as an equivalent unit of Temple Flameguard, but they hit much harder. I really like them for that versatility actually. If my opponent brings lots of infantry I've got the Flame Burst and the high armor to resist the retaliatory attack when I run or charge out of difficult terrain, but if they bring a lot of armor (like a particular Mercenary player in my local game store) they have the armor to cause trouble for his lights, and take a few hits from his heavies, while still threatening with their mat 7 pow 12 weapon master attacks and charges. Actually, the last time I played I proxied the Vessel of Judgement for the first time, and by using Doors of Judgement on a Bastion (equivalent pow) I managed to smack a Mangler on my opponents turn and ruin his cortex, wasting the three focus he had on him, so I imagine the Cinerators will be just as deadly with it as the frontline of my army.

[tzeentchling]

...slightly off-topic question: are there (m)any players out there making us of Cinerator/Bastion heavy lists?

I was just looking over the stats and they seem to have comparatively better stats than MoW; and there's a ton of players out there crazy about MoW lists but I don't recall ever seeing much about a PoM equivalent?

I've done it for an eSeverius tier list. It worked ok, but probably wasn't optimal since he doesn't offer them much. A Vindictus list would probably work better.

Edit: Also if we got a heavy exemplar unit with a ranged attack, people would probably be more excited. Bastions and Cinerators don't do exactly the same things, but they're close enough in that both rely on melee combat. Slow + melee only tends to be difficult to play with.

[darisus]

I keep wondering how i can convert my bastions into more Cinerators... The eSevy tier with a few units is actually pretty viable as the advance move helps some of the problems getting them down field first turn. It allows them to get out and stayout ahead of your army.

[oconnor0]

Thanks for all the thoughts. :-)

[Bishop84]

when coupled with True Path and their speed buff (cause my meta is really ranged heavy, so they will be taking hits on their way) they can charge 11 inches or run 12

Charge 11", run 14".

I love Vindictus with Cinnies. My opponents do not.

[loramer]

I am a fan of both the bastions and cinnerators. They each have their roles to fill and they both fill them well.

cinnerators work well for me when I use them as a front line unit. They almost always get the speed buff when used this way and they can survive those initial long range shots well - especially if you have access to DW or involiable resolve. Once they meet up with my opponent's front line, they hit like trucks and can wipe out lots of infantry if my opponent bunches up too much. Often times, the flameburst doesn't get much as my opponent's are aware of this ability and position to prevent to much flamey goodness, but you will still drop a few fires just about every game with them.

Bastions work well for me with I use them as second wave attackers. They are too slow to try and use up front, but after that initial alpha strike, they are a phenomenal counterstrike unit. Reach is an amazingly powerful tool and is the main reason that I like the bastions better than the cinnerators. With them as your second line, once your front line dies, there are still no charge lanes open to your back lines because your middle is clogged up with big reach guys. They also hit like trucks.

I don't use the cinnerators all that often, just because I feel I have access to a cheaper front line unit with reach (TFG) and I don't usually have the points to spare.