The King: why MAT:5?

[cryptomancer]

Alright, alright... I admit, I've been down on the poor Mountain King since we saw the rules. Some of this was undeserved, but I've been trying to make things right. For anyone interested (I know nobody's interested ) you can see my attempts in recent threads to suggest possible beneficial combos to run with him to make him more effective. Which is not to say that the basic stat line is junk.

The spray is fantastic. RAT:5 boostable sprays are amazing, especially on a model that can generate his own mobile targeting drones... by which I mean, "Whelps", to help him get angles on enemies behind forests, behind enemy models, etc. His P+S is respectable, and we have plenty of buffs for hitting power in-faction (I rarely leave home without the Mauler any more). Okay, his wound count might be a bit less than we were hoping, but with all the healing he can potentially gobble up, I understand the concept behind it. I don't agree, but I understand.

But, as the topic heading says, why MAT:5? We've had a problem with Warbeast melee accuracy for a while now. It could be said the Rok was a direct answer to that particular problem (though having the King auto-frenzy is a BIG waste of an activation. But I digress...). But I have to compare the King's MAT to my other faction's Big Bad Boy, the Judicator.

The Judicator is an effective MAT:8. How? Because every Protectorate player and their mum takes a Choir, that's how. We Trollbloods have no cheap options for buffing melee accuracy on our Warbeasts. The closest thing we've got is Amuck which, while pretty good for a Sweep, still leaves us struggling to hit a mere DEF:12 on most melee attacks. P+S:19 doesn't mean much when you can't connect with your target.

So that's my question. Why do you think we've got a mere MAT:5? What's the mitigating factor? Is the King really meant to concentrate on his ranged game, like the Bomber? Is he a Power Attack machine (remember, only one per activation)? Are we just expected to have something along to provide Knockdown (Borka, Grim, Calandra, Impaler, etc)?

Plese don't mistake this for a whine. I really am coming around on the Mountain King. I think it a solidly playable piece. I just can't quite wrap my head around this particular aspect of it.

-crypto

[Cannibalbob]

I think the reasoning probably had to do with the combination of 5 fury, high P+S melee sweep-attack with Amuck. I don't think that is a good reason to shaft his overall melee, but my guess is they thought about that and decided they needed to put a down-side in there.

[jdripley]

I'm pretty bummed about MAT 5 too. Honestly, if everything else was the same and the MK had MAT 6, I'd be dancing for joy and throwing money at PP. I love every other aspect of this model.

Here's my take:

The Mountain King is good at two things: Crushing high ARM targets (which he can do all by himself, P+S 19 doesn't need no Mauler - unless you've got two Khador heavies to deal with in one turn), and taking out a bunch of infantry all in one go.

For high ARM targets, the general trend in the game is that those have low DEF. As in, 10 low. MK will hit DEF 10 pretty easily, so he succeeds at killing those hard targets pretty well.

For killing lots of infantry: He's going to be using the Sweep attack for that, which is a special attack. Amuck is only 1 fury (THANK YOU!), so for one fury you've got boosted attacks against all targets that you Sweep. That will be enough to have a solid chance of hitting most infantry targets, which are typically 12 or 13 DEF. You'll still struggle against models with Iron Flesh on them - but everything struggles in that case. That's the point of Iron Flesh after all.

I'm coming around too. It's really an awesome model. The price tag is really high so I'm not sure if I really want to allocate that much gaming budget to a single model... But once I buy it and name it Real Mulg I know I'll be really happy with the model.

Another poster (sorry I forget your name) said to think of the Mountain King as costing 18 points and always coming with its own Whelps. That makes alot of sense, really, and it's a fantastic model for 18 points.

[sourclams]

Plese don't mistake this for a whine. I really am coming around on the Mountain King. I think it a solidly playable piece. I just can't quite wrap my head around this particular aspect of it.

-crypto

I honestly think it originally had 'normal' stats but the guy running the playtests only brought it with KSB+Janissa+Transmute and he predominantly ran up against Cygnar and Khador. This made everyone go 'That model is bull@*%*!' as it waded through a bunch of non-WM infantry and hid from Behemoth behind the wall. So they said 'you should not be able to kill EVERYTHING' and knocked down its MAT and boxes. Then the Troll player went '*** now I can't even kill infantry' so they gave it Amuck.

The result just feels like a model that everyone made a bunch of compromises over and that's why nobody likes it.

[Lord Tyrant peers]

I am not a troll player,i play skorne so i do understand your pain of having a melee beast with mat5. We have the rhinodon(who also has thresher) and the amuck animus with mat5, however our differences are sweep(mtk) and 360 arc thresher(rhino) in fairness the mtk gets snacking and whelps for free and is more durable than said rhinodon. The difference however is points. the rhinodon is only 7 points compared to 20 so for the extra 13 points im getting can drastically increase accuracy and hitting power of the rhinodon. I believe the mtk have huge amounts of potential and will get people to use often overlooked models with him like the wintertroll(which can completely negate the need for boosting ect, I also believe its speed is a hindrance as trolls arn't a faction known for thier speed buff outside of edoomshaper and rush( i know about the rush tax too)
I actually believe the mtk will have the lowest amount of hit points than the rest of the gargantuans and may be the most expensive due to the inherent healing abilities it has in snacking,self whelps and whelp solos
I reckon if you troll players put your thinking caps on instead of dooming and glooming you can make the most of the mountain king*

*I know this thread isn't about the doom, I just had to give my (probably poor) view point

[Cannibalbob]

How on earth does the Winter Troll help out the Mountain King?

I guess you could use the animus to make a big area of cold-freeze...

[NinjaSpank]

So, I've been looking over the MtK ever since he came out and I agree, the thing that stands out the most is his MAT:5. However, there is something important to think about. In one of the seminars at L&L (the concept to book I believe) they were talking about how they eratta'd Skarre's feat to 'not include large based models' and the community said 'Why?'. Then they released the Colossal book and the community went 'Oh. That's why.' These guys are playing three steps ahead of us, so whenever something happens that makes me say "How could they have missed this", I'm realizing they probably havent.

You also touched on one of the issues; we have a hard time getting out heavies to connect. I think PP knows this. I'm starting to think that in the Garganutans book we're going to get something that is specifically going to help increase accuracy. Whether its a beasts' animi or a solo, I dont know, but that's what I'm really starting to suspect. Now, none of this helps him in the very immediate and I could be totally wrong, but if you think of the King in that light, suddenly things make a little more sense. For me at any rate.

[PG_DarkTemplars]

... by which I mean, "Whelps", to help him get angles on enemies behind forests

Since the whelps aren't LoS-nodes, how are you planning on doing this?

[zor]

So maybe in Gargantuans we'll get a beast caller that gives our beasts +2 Mat/+2 STR/Free boost? That would be saweet.

[Trollicious]

The spray is fantastic. RAT:5 boostable sprays are amazing, especially on a model that can generate his own mobile targeting drones... by which I mean, "Whelps", to help him get angles on enemies behind forests, behind enemy models, etc.

This works for targets behind models and clouds, but a spray will not hit a model that you cannot see through a forest.

[NinjaSpank]

So maybe in Gargantuans we'll get a beast caller that gives our beasts +2 Mat/+2 STR/Free boost? That would be saweet.

Yea, something like that. It'd make a certain amount of fluff sense; Madrak, Doomy and Borka are off finding these beasts, maybe they'd send back trollbloods that had been overseeing their confinement that are trained specifically in beast-handling. /shrug

Again, this is all speculation, but it feels _right_.

EDIT: I could be wrong, but are we the only Hordes faction that doesnt have a solo for controlling beasts outside of our 'locks control range?

[Cannibalbob]

Something cheap & easy that buffs beast mat would take a whole lot of wind out of Rok's sails though.

And while I will give you that they do often think ahead on a broad view, they also do release plenty of models with mediocre or downright poor rules.

[Goris]

Something cheap & easy that buffs beast mat would take a whole lot of wind out of Rok's sails though.

No it won't. Rök stands on his own as a fantastic beast. Berserk is crazy good in trolls and with his rather large repertoire of abilities coming in at 11pts I don't see him being taken any less.

[NinjaSpank]

Something cheap & easy that buffs beast mat would take a whole lot of wind out of Rok's sails though.

See, and I would say that it just changes what you use Roks animi on. I'd rather use that on an Axer to make him insane and only have 6 points frenzy and have this other option for my bigger beasts to get the MAT boost (without the Str boost) and not have my heavy auto-frenzy.

And while I will give you that they do often think ahead on a broad view, they also do release plenty of models with mediocre or downright poor rules.

True, but like I said; I just feel like something is missing. Maybe he is just bland, but I'm going to hope that we're missing on a model that we dont know about yet.

[PG_Magonus]

This works for targets behind models and clouds, but a spray will not hit a model that you cannot see through a forest.

Regarding sprays, from Prime page 60 "The targeting rules apply when choosing the attack's primary target. Every model with any part of its base covered by the appropriate section of the spray template can be hit by the attack."

I read this as you can run a whelp into a forest, target it (if it is less than 3" in) and then hit everything on the other side of said forest that is under the template.

[The Happy Anarchist]

From the same page, slightly farther down in the rule - "A model under the spray template cannot be hit by the attack if the attackers LOS is blocked completely by terrain."

It is important to keep reading the whole rule, and not stop once you think you have an answer. PP has a habit of adding important little bits right at the end.

Query for those with the book and or Kraken card. Is Kill Shot enemy model? I am wondering if it is possible/worth it to charge a whelp or something and kill shotting a spray off on BLT or eSkarre when a convenient enemy infantry target is not available.

[Goris]

Enemy model... sadly...

[Crate123]

They should have given him better stats and make him immune to some friendly effects, such as animus cast by any other model than himself.
So give him MAT6, 52 health boxes, 20 ARM and make it so only his own animus only cast by himself would work.
Now that is obviously just a quick thought but it seems that in their fear of making him too powerful with all our buffs they made it so he NEEDS all our buffs.

[cryptomancer]

Hmm. I do like the idea that we're going to get some kind of beast-buddy unit or solo (a Pyg Choir sorta, or a Fell Caller-type solo that helps warbeasts). I don't think it's terribly likely; there's a strong indication that we're the Infantry Faction of HORDES. I believe I was the one who put up a thread a while back noting that we've got the lowest number of Heavies in the game, and possibly the fewest overall warbeasts as well...

However, with the King, perhaps things are shifting. I mean, I always loved trollbloods for the Dire Trolls. That was basically why I joined up when PRIMAL came out (aside from also being the only faction I'd actually call sympathetic, but that's another rant). Having more Warbeast support would be delicious.

I'll remain skeptical until I see the goods, however.

-crypto

[Indy]

Query for those with the book and or Kraken card. Is Kill Shot enemy model?

Yes. Living enemy model, too. Because, you know, Cryx needs to be immune to more things...

[Darth_Stryker]

The spray is fantastic. RAT:5 boostable sprays are amazing, especially on a model that can generate his own mobile targeting drones... by which I mean, "Whelps", to help him get angles on enemies behind forests, behind enemy models, etc. -crypto

Hey you cant hit models behind forest at all with sprays, even if you are targeting someone who is not. Also when attacking with sprays ignore intervening models. So you can target any model as long as Terrian is not blocking your LoS.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

It's entirely possible that PP feels that any beast with Amuck has to be Mat 5 to compensate.

[Digestive]

One short question: Does Amuck boost both to hit rolls on a targeted two handed throw?

[Lord Tyrant peers]

How on earth does the Winter Troll help out the Mountain King?

I guess you could use the animus to make a big area of cold-freeze...

Because if models end their movement in the mtk melee range with the winter trolls animus on they become stationary(if its not dead) stationary targets=auto hit

[PG_machine007]

Because if models end their activation within 2" of the mtk with the winter trolls animus on they become stationary(if its not dead) stationary targets=auto hit

Fixed, but I am sure bob knew what was meant.

[prozacman]

So maybe in Gargantuans we'll get a beast caller that gives our beasts +2 Mat/+2 STR/Free boost? That would be saweet.

Sweet Jenkins I hope we get something like this!

[Funkylovebear]

How on earth does the Winter Troll help out the Mountain King?

I guess you could use the animus to make a big area of cold-freeze...

also it only takes one medium base warrior model to stop the Mnt K charging/trampling. a boostable spay is very handy for removing these models from the Mnt K's melee range.

also crit freeze is great for the mat 5 issuse (though i have not had too much of a problem with this, but i'll never say no to auto hits!)

[Lord Tyrant peers]

also crit freeze is great for the mat 5 issuse (though i have not had too much of a problem with this, but i'll never say no to auto hits!)

It's not crit freeze, its just freeze. Would anyone say no to auto hits? And I can't see trolls getting a solo who buffs beasts, it isn't trolls M.O

[Funkylovebear]

It's not crit freeze, its just freeze. Would anyone say no to auto hits? And I can't see trolls getting a solo who buffs beasts, it isn't trolls M.O

the spray is crit freeze, he is more than a 5 point animus!

[wargrim]

But less than a 5 point beast
If the winter troll, and especially his animus, would work the way people think he does, he wouldn't be the most loathed beast in trolldbloods. Actually, he would be horrible broken at 5 points.

[Goris]

So far I haven't had any issues with my MK and his Mat 5, but I don't send him after things he can't hit. Just like any beast he's not going to have an answer for everything, least of which being high def infantry. I see the possibility of there being something in the coming book that buffs our beasts mat/rat, but I expect it being a +1/+1 and likely on a light beast, not a solo. What I hope for is a solo but I don't see it happening. As for MK, he's new, but I really think people are going to stop caring about his mat after they start using him more...

[jdripley]

Winter Troll Animus on a Mountain King may be the best possible target. Borka's a great target for that too, given how tough a nut he is. I've been meaning to try putting the Winter into more lists, this will be a great reason to give it a shot!

[Beckman]

So maybe in Gargantuans we'll get a beast caller that gives our beasts +2 Mat/+2 STR/Free boost? That would be saweet.

Sadly, I do not believe this will help the Mountain King. Because anything else that we have will just be buffed to be BETTER than the Mountain King. The Bomber with Rage and that +2 MAT/STR would be P+S20/MAT7 with 6 total attacks. They're just not going to buff MAT5 beasts to be that good... The Mauler with his own animus will almost always out-damage the Mountain King (if his animus is cast by the warlock) because of his MAT6. I don't think that's going to change.

[SOUPlex]

Sadly, I do not believe this will help the Mountain King. Because anything else that we have will just be buffed to be BETTER than the Mountain King. The Bomber with Rage and that +2 MAT/STR would be P+S20/MAT7 with 6 total attacks. They're just not going to buff MAT5 beasts to be that good... The Mauler with his own animus will almost always out-damage the Mountain King (if his animus is cast by the warlock) because of his MAT6. I don't think that's going to change.

^THIS^

I was going to say something along these same lines, but stayed myself because all I seem to be doing is complaining about the King. But, really, PP, there had better be a really good reason why this guy is so lackluster. Not only comparing him to other Colossals, but even comparing him to our own in faction Heavies, he comes up short. Do ya'll really not want to see this guy on the table for tournaments?! Did whoever playtest this model NOT play trollbloods?!

Why would you create such a gorgeous model, and than give it rules that we wouldn't want to play with it?!

[PG_thegreatblah]

Sadly, I do not believe this will help the Mountain King. Because anything else that we have will just be buffed to be BETTER than the Mountain King. The Bomber with Rage and that +2 MAT/STR would be P+S20/MAT7 with 6 total attacks. They're just not going to buff MAT5 beasts to be that good... The Mauler with his own animus will almost always out-damage the Mountain King (if his animus is cast by the warlock) because of his MAT6. I don't think that's going to change.

Anything you can do to buff the Bomber or any of our Mat 5 beasts will be +4 Damage better on the MK. Not to mention the fact that the MK has built in reach giving it better range. Where it starts to equalize is when our beasts mat is better like with the Mauler, Earthborn or character but even then the MK still hits a ton harder. The only one that comes close is Mulg and he has 12 less damage boxes and no ranged attack. Not saying the MK is uber, just saying that when you apply buffs to other beasts and then say that beast is going to be better than an unbuffed MK then you are forgetting that the MK can be buffed as well.

[wargrim]

Sorry, but I've got problems with the argument that it's good if we buff it enough. There is nothing wrong with a model that needs buffing, but only if it is costed accordingly.
Even if we get a 'beast caller' for 2 points, which gives +2 mat/damage to a beast, the MK wont turn into a 20 point model with MAT7 POW21. He will be a 22 point model with MAT7 POW21, and the moment the 'beast caller' dies were back to MAT5 POW19 at 20 points. Likewise, you could say that the axer would be OK at 10 points, because we are able to buff him to the level of a 10-pointer. We are able to do it, but then he costs more than 10 points beacause you have to buy the support.
And while a buffed bomber won't outdo the buffed MK, that's hardly a favorable comparison, because there's a 10 point gap. The question is if he outdoes a bomber + another heavy with this buffs.

[Goris]

We keep comparing the king to other beasts like they are the same when in reality they are not. The MK is going to function entirely differently then any other beast we have. So, I don't understand the argument that if something needs support it's not worth it's points. You take support because you want it for more then just one model. So a beast support model wouldn't just be there for the MK, he would be there for the other beasts as well thus fulfilling his role, which is not to just support the MK.

[PG_thegreatblah]

Sorry, but I've got problems with the argument that it's good if we buff it enough. There is nothing wrong with a model that needs buffing, but only if it is costed accordingly.
Even if we get a 'beast caller' for 2 points, which gives +2 mat/damage to a beast, the MK wont turn into a 20 point model with MAT7 POW21. He will be a 22 point model with MAT7 POW21, and the moment the 'beast caller' dies were back to MAT5 POW19 at 20 points. Likewise, you could say that the axer would be OK at 10 points, because we are able to buff him to the level of a 10-pointer. We are able to do it, but then he costs more than 10 points beacause you have to buy the support.
And while a buffed bomber won't outdo the buffed MK, that's hardly a favorable comparison, because there's a 10 point gap. The question is if he outdoes a bomber + another heavy with this buffs.

The point is, if you are going to make a comparison of a fully buffed model versus a model standing on its own then you're argument already starts off with too much bias. Yes the MK is quite a bit more costly than a comparable beast, but if you are going to make comparison's do them fairly and as unbiased as you can.

I'm still in the camp of 'wait and see' with the MK, but that doesn't mean heavily biased arguments are going to help me as a player. That said, arguments that clearly and fairly compare the MK with other things we have, lend credence to the argument and help sway opinion because these arguments are based on less 'biased' information. That is not to say that biased arguments don't help... they just don't help as much because sometimes the effort to cut through the opinion to get to good information is too much trouble to be worth the effort.

[PG_joedj]

Why MAT 5?
I really don't have a good answer.
It seems bad. It IS bad when facing common high DEF tactics (eg. Iron Fleshed Kayazy).
It's bad when attacking anything higher than 11 DEF (50/50?!). Unless you can support him with DEF-eliminating knockdowns (cheapest=Runeshapers) or MAT buffs (available from 5 of our 11 Warlocks, and one expensive Warbeast).


I'd like to think we'll eventually have a "Beast Caller" or Pyg Shaman that gives a Warbeast within 5" the Blessed weapon(s) ability.
Or perhaps a spell or animus that gives him Bulldoze. That would allow Amuck to be triggered (second animus) and the MAT 5 could be mitigated...

Of course, making MK too good would result in obsolesence of other Troll models (which we might see more of with the Warmachine Colossals).
I do like that that does not seem to be the case

[sourclams]

We keep comparing the king to other beasts like they are the same when in reality they are not. The MK is going to function entirely differently then any other beast we have.

What is functionally different about the MtK that is not more or less what we already have?

We've got a large-based knockdown-immune model that shoots, already.
We've got ARM/P&S23 with Reach already.
We've been able to stack 50+ boxes of high-ARM trolls around Janissa since the book hit.
We've got plenty that kills off mid-def infantry.
We can crap whelps in any list with 2 points dedicated to whelps.

New stuff: Amuck animus, Rat5 Spray, boostable, base Str15.

It's one thing to say 'this model is workable and can build some interesting lists'. With pDoomy, Gunny especially this seems true.

To say that MtK is going to function 'entirely differently from any beast we have', though? Really? You mean we're not going to stack buffs on him so he can plod into melee and punch something? If he had Bulldoze or Trample on Med bases or a chainblast that caused Blind--that'd all be pretty new and unique. Spd5 Warbeast that kills the crap out of low-def/high-Arm targets? Not new.