Hard Questions Facing Ret Players

[joelker41]

This is a thread I wanted to start to see what things Ret players are currently struggling with. Mine:



In my list prep for L&L I had a lot of hard questions to ask myself, the most poignant was are MHSF worth Fielding without Ravyn, Ossyan or Garryth?

I played a lot of test games, poured over lots of configurations, and came to the startling conclusion that MHSF really needed help to be their full potential.

I included then as reinforcements with Rahn in case I got a Force Hammer off on a caster late game but mostly they just tied up whatever was contesting on their side once they came in. I found Nyss + Sentinels + Banshee just worked better.

It isn't to say I won't field MHSF outside those three casters, just they recently have been replaced by Halbs/Sentinels in a lot of my lists.


Any hard questions anyone else experienced recently?

[Murkhadh]

This is a thread. I wanted to start to see what things Ret players are currently struggling with. Mine:



In my list prep for L&L I had a lot of hard questions to ask myself, the poignant was are MHSF worth Fielding without Ravyn, Ossyan or Garryth?

I played a lot of test games, poured over lots of configurations, and came to the startling conclusion that MHSF really needed help to be their full potential.

I included then as reinforcements with Rahn in case I got a Force Hammer off on a caster late game but mostly they just tied up whatever was contesting on their side once they came in. I found Nyss + Sentinels + Banshee just worked better.

It isn't to say I won't field MHSF outside those three casters, just they recently have been replaced by Halbs/Sentinels in a lot of my lists.


Any hard questions anyone else experienced recently?

I've never been sad I had them in any list but they are only auto includes with Ravyn. I like them with Kaelyssa as well.

but they aren't in my base rahn list, they come in as RF's sometimes, or i bring pEiryss 2x ghost snipers and lanyssa.

I havnt' even started to think about what my rf's will be with eVyross, maybe 2 more griffons

[Lord Sessadore]

It seems obvious, but if Sentinels and Halberds are working better in your lists, that sounds like you needed the opposite of what MHSF bring (which is mainly annoying, stealthy shooting).

Even without those three casters, I've found the MHSF to be quite useful for removing support. When you don't have accuracy or damage buffs to give them, that seems to be their forte. Or killing light jacks, they can do that fairly effectively as long as they can hit.

[joelker41]

Well it was mostly my playstyle as well. This thread was.mostly tailored so everyone could share their own. I will definitely say I became a much better.player when I went from using eiryss, A+H, and MHSF in every list to realizing we are a GREAT jamming faction.

[Demeritus]

While I primarily run them with Ravyn or Ossyan, I have used them with others though I tend not to.

In terms of what questions I find myself facing currently it more is about how many jacks I want to try and cram in with eVyros, the best uses for Hyperion as well as contemplating about what those razor blade guys will do and what they will add to the faction.

[Murkhadh]

at least 5 jacks with eVyros ))

Its so cool that I'm actually getting to say 5 jacks in a ret list too lol

[Rampaging Elk]

Its so cool that I'm actually getting to say 5 jacks in a rest list too lol

This. I have a Menoth-playing friend who's totally down on eVyros, but I think he's awesome, largely for this singular reason.

[Demeritus]

at least 5 jacks with eVyros ))

Its so cool that I'm actually getting to say 5 jacks in a rest list too lol

So far I have been using 3, I may end up going for 4 soon.

[Syfer22]

My tough question is "How do I fit in all the stuff I want to fit in?"

Also, being a Cryx player, my other tough question is "Do I want 1 unit of melee or do I want both units to be melee-oriented like I'm used to?"

I have been enjoying having guns though.

[Dubstep]

Mine would be what second caster I will bring WITH eV.
Alot of ppl say ravyn because she is the opposite of eV, but what is she really bringing to the team? Does she take on eV's bad matchups better? Same for casters like kae and rhan. Who best compliments him?

[Rogue Sun]

Mine:

Do I need an arc node? If yes - Phoenix. If no - Do I need a heavy jack? - if yes - Banshee, if no - Banshee.

Seriously, I haven't even tried the Deamon of Sphinx since the Vrye jacks have come out. Every time I make a list it just always seems to include a Banshee or a Phoenix, and usually both. The Banshee is just too good not to take, IMO.

[Rogue Sun]

Mine would be what second caster I will bring WITH eV.
Alot of ppl say ravyn because she is the opposite of eV, but what is she really bringing to the team? Does she take on eV's bad matchups better? Same for casters like kae and rhan. Who best compliments him?

I actually think Kaelyssa would be a better fit. Rhan, Ravyn and Ossyan all feature aggressive offensive feats. EVyros is an aggressive in your face caster, so if you take one of the aforementioned three, you just have 2 aggressive casters. Kaelyssa isn't aggressive. She certainly can be when the time arrives, but on the whole she is a defensive, reactive caster. EVyros is neither defensive, nor reactive (well his feat is, but it's only to further promote being aggressive).

[Syfer22]

Mine:

Do I need an arc node? If yes - Phoenix. If no - Do I need a heavy jack? - if yes - Banshee, if no - Banshee.

Seriously, I haven't even tried the Deamon of Sphinx since the Vrye jacks have come out. Every time I make a list it just always seems to include a Banshee or a Phoenix, and usually both. The Banshee is just too good not to take, IMO.

I feel the same way about the Phoenix and Banshee. I used to use the Chimera, and probably still will on occasion, but... The Phoenix+Banshee combo is pretty hard to beat. I have tried Daemon, however, and I look forward to more games with it when I build one of my own.

[Murkhadh]

I like the idea of Ravyn with eVyros so far, long ranged shooty compared to fly across the board get in your face and then eat your face. Will give your opponent fits trying to guess what to take vs what.

[Tainted Coil]

I have two:

Can I by without Sentinels? I hate to rely on them as a crutch since there are answers to stopping them, but we lack any serious hitting power outside this unit. MHSF just doesn't cut it against ARM20+, even worse if it's a beast or not a jack.

How can I make two heavies work? With Hyperion, this becomes less of an issue.

[Murkhadh]

I have two:

Can I by without Sentinels? I hate to rely on them as a crutch since there are answers to stopping them, but we lack any serious hitting power outside this unit. MHSF just doesn't cut it against ARM20+, even worse if it's a beast or not a jack.

How can I make two heavies work? With Hyperion, this becomes less of an issue.

stormfall archers and halbs and some of our jacks hit hard too.

[Jestor]

I don't mind taking them with any caster for the sheer psycological aspect. Most guys have gotten assassinated by them at least once. They remember that. Combined Melee Attack also helps in a pinch when you absolutely need that yuri the Axe type solo deaded.

[Houston]

Things I struggle with:

I struggle with finding a good use for Nayl. I've tried playing with him multiple times because he is one of the few character solos we have. He also has a cool backstory. Yet, every time I field him, I end up wishing I had spent those 2 points differently. Does anyone field Nayl in a competitive list?

I find myself in a unit rut. If I want to do well in a game, I start reaching for the Sentinels and the MHSF (unless I'm fielding Rahn, in which case I still normally grab at least one of the two units). I want some variety to our 'good' units so I don't bore myself.

I guess variety is the thing I struggle with the most when playing Ret. Our games lack a lot of it because we have some solid units, some way more than solid units that see the majority of play, and only 6 casters to chose from. We also lack access to the large number of support models (and mercenaries) that many other factions have which would allow Ret to vary strategies in how the faction plays.

[RetributionBomb]

The last 10-15 games I have played I have not fielded the MHSF and I have done perfectly fine, and there was rarely a point where I said "Damn I wish I had the MHSF!" They are hardly auto include status.

[Murkhadh]

Things I struggle with:

I struggle with finding a good use for Nayl. I've tried playing with him multiple times because he is one of the few character solos we have. He also has a cool backstory. Yet, every time I field him, I end up wishing I had spent those 2 points differently. Does anyone field Nayl in a competitive list?

I find myself in a unit rut. If I want to do well in a game, I start reaching for the Sentinels and the MHSF (unless I'm fielding Rahn, in which case I still normally grab at least one of the two units). I want some variety to our 'good' units so I don't bore myself.

I guess variety is the thing I struggle with the most when playing Ret. Our games lack a lot of it because we have some solid units, some way more than solid units that see the majority of play, and only 6 casters to chose from. We also lack access to the large number of support models (and mercenaries) that many other factions have which would allow Ret to vary strategies in how the faction plays.

Your having trouble finding a good use for Nayl because there is no good use for him. The only time I ever put him on the table was in a tier tournament as a reinforcement because I had no other options.

[RetributionBomb]

Your having trouble finding a good use for Nayl because there is no good use for him. The only time I ever put him on the table was in a tier tournament as a reinforcement because I had no other options.

Yea Nayl is garbage, and if you're facing Hordes he is also a possible liability.

[pritch64]

So i really like Invictors with eVyros because i have 5 jacks all with reach. They become weapon masters easily and could be the best raged unit in the game. So you get the best of both worlds.

[Gho5t]

I usually struggle deciding which units to bring because we have so many good options. I also have trouble choosing between a 2nd/3rd unit or lots of assassin solos.

Myrm choice is tough, too. I like so many of them!

This is for casual games, though.

[Mastershake]

Currently struggling with Ossyan:

On about the 20th iteration of various lists. The heavier I stack in melee, the more mileage from quicken and the less from the feat, the heavier in range the worse the army performs from turn to turn simply because the stronger ranged units are not CRAers and he has only limited ability to buff accuracy. His battlegroup also has me a bit of a loss, taking the 19pt Hypnos/Banshee combo is nice, but it kills the feat pretty hard to lose all of those models and less Quicken mileage there as well. What I need is the ability to completely switch the army he has between feat and non-feat turns...seems vaguely illegal. It's also just hard to find a reason to keep putting effort since other casters just seem to be generally out-performing him regardless of what he takes. I liked him so much when he came out and if colossals become serious tournament mainstays I've got a build that will wreck multiple colossals in a turn, but right now he's just so meh it's hard to get excited. That's not entirely true, people have been endlessly crying about the MM list I put together that has Banshee, Hypnos and a Sphinx since two of their heavies sit the game out and a third just messes around with Admonitioned Sphinx before getting put down. It has made me like him more, but he's usually a fair distance away from a serious consideration if I'm playing to win.

Also trying to find the eVyros balance:

The man just wants everything and a lot of things want him. Pruning the army down outside of tier (in tier really damn easy) is getting to be a challenge, but trimming an army down to only what becomes the most broken with a caster is infinitely more fun than simply trying to find something that works.

Lastly I have arrived at an interesting conclusion:

I'm pretty sure Ravyn wants Hyperion at 50pts, but I'm undecided if thats with Disco or in lieu of Disco. Every time I swap Disco out I'm left with 7pts and just put her back in, she's just got so much utility for that army. As much as I've liked the Nyss Hunters at 50, I'm thinking this might legitimately be the way forward and also bring some serious questions up for any opponent who thinks they have the answer to the list.

[Tainted Coil]

Currently struggling with Ossyan:

On about the 20th iteration of various lists. The heavier I stack in melee, the more mileage from quicken and the less from the feat, the heavier in range the worse the army performs from turn to turn simply because the stronger ranged units are not CRAers and he has only limited ability to buff accuracy. His battlegroup also has me a bit of a loss, taking the 19pt Hypnos/Banshee combo is nice, but it kills the feat pretty hard to lose all of those models and less Quicken mileage there as well. What I need is the ability to completely switch the army he has between feat and non-feat turns...seems vaguely illegal. It's also just hard to find a reason to keep putting effort since other casters just seem to be generally out-performing him regardless of what he takes. I liked him so much when he came out and if colossals become serious tournament mainstays I've got a build that will wreck multiple colossals in a turn, but right now he's just so meh it's hard to get excited. That's not entirely true, people have been endlessly crying about the MM list I put together that has Banshee, Hypnos and a Sphinx since two of their heavies sit the game out and a third just messes around with Admonitioned Sphinx before getting put down. It has made me like him more, but he's usually a fair distance away from a serious consideration if I'm playing to win.

Also trying to find the eVyros balance:

The man just wants everything and a lot of things want him. Pruning the army down outside of tier (in tier really damn easy) is getting to be a challenge, but trimming an army down to only what becomes the most broken with a caster is infinitely more fun than simply trying to find something that works.

Lastly I have arrived at an interesting conclusion:

I'm pretty sure Ravyn wants Hyperion at 50pts, but I'm undecided if thats with Disco or in lieu of Disco. Every time I swap Disco out I'm left with 7pts and just put her back in, she's just got so much utility for that army. As much as I've liked the Nyss Hunters at 50, I'm thinking this might legitimately be the way forward and also bring some serious questions up for any opponent who thinks they have the answer to the list.

I have the same problem with Ossyan. I've had a lot of success with him and win record is by far the highest with him, but I feel like I can't strike the right balance between melee and ranged to make the most of what he does. He loves the Hypnos/Banshee combo, but I always throw in Sentinels with Quicken, and that eats up so many points there isn't much left to capitalize on his feat.

Also wondering who Hyperion will be best with, and if Lanyssa becomes a must. He already has a 10" threat range to charge, Lanyssa makes it 12" and a free charge, and we have some other way's to extend that - Quicken, Mobility, sadly Mirage and Locomotion are out... is he better as a melee jack that can jam up the enemy then shoot out of combat at the enemy caster?

[Murkhadh]

Currently struggling with Ossyan:

On about the 20th iteration of various lists. The heavier I stack in melee, the more mileage from quicken and the less from the feat, the heavier in range the worse the army performs from turn to turn simply because the stronger ranged units are not CRAers and he has only limited ability to buff accuracy. His battlegroup also has me a bit of a loss, taking the 19pt Hypnos/Banshee combo is nice, but it kills the feat pretty hard to lose all of those models and less Quicken mileage there as well. What I need is the ability to completely switch the army he has between feat and non-feat turns...seems vaguely illegal. It's also just hard to find a reason to keep putting effort since other casters just seem to be generally out-performing him regardless of what he takes. I liked him so much when he came out and if colossals become serious tournament mainstays I've got a build that will wreck multiple colossals in a turn, but right now he's just so meh it's hard to get excited. That's not entirely true, people have been endlessly crying about the MM list I put together that has Banshee, Hypnos and a Sphinx since two of their heavies sit the game out and a third just messes around with Admonitioned Sphinx before getting put down. It has made me like him more, but he's usually a fair distance away from a serious consideration if I'm playing to win.

Also trying to find the eVyros balance:

The man just wants everything and a lot of things want him. Pruning the army down outside of tier (in tier really damn easy) is getting to be a challenge, but trimming an army down to only what becomes the most broken with a caster is infinitely more fun than simply trying to find something that works.

Lastly I have arrived at an interesting conclusion:

I'm pretty sure Ravyn wants Hyperion at 50pts, but I'm undecided if thats with Disco or in lieu of Disco. Every time I swap Disco out I'm left with 7pts and just put her back in, she's just got so much utility for that army. As much as I've liked the Nyss Hunters at 50, I'm thinking this might legitimately be the way forward and also bring some serious questions up for any opponent who thinks they have the answer to the list.

I'm having the same dilema with Ravyn Hyperion and the Nyss were what I was thinking was the first thing to come out for Hyperion as well. I'm not sure what to do with disco though.

And yea Ossyan, I've given up on him for the time being. Denial caster with Unreliable denial.

[Murkhadh]

double post