If you could change one rule...

[Indy]

Eyeless Sight would work like Vyros' Birds Eye.

[Blaque]

I think the Undead complaints are odd in the fact that Undead is obviously meant ot be a stragiht-up benefit. Just like Elemental Immunities, Pathfinder, or Weaponmaster. I fail to see how it is supposed to be inherently weaker other than the fact that it seems to screw a lot of things, which is a more valid issue.

I think if anything, though, we often see undead reflected in usually lower DEF, SPD, MAT, or CMD. It's attempted to be shown in other areas of the model's statline to compensate. Whether this is acheived well is another matter, but giving a bunch of things pseudo-Weaponmaster against a faction, and effectively invalidating two warlocks and a solo in Hordes meant to give it out as an advantage seems to be an extreme measure to me.

And stuff.

[John of Arc]

I'd give huge bases greater freedom of movement. If they end their movement on a linear obstacle, that obstacle is destroyed. If they end a trample movement on top of a small based model, that model is moved to the edge of the trampler's base. We already have rules for this due to throws. Mostly, I think it's silly that extraordinarily powerful, house-sized robots can't clear a picket fence at anything other than a full sprint. Besides the obvious effect of making it easier to maneuver colossals and battle engines around, it would also give them a minor terrain deformation ability, one which I don't think would affect the game very much (since you wouldn't be hiding behind that wall anyway, if you were going to park your colossal there in the first place). It would definitely affect rock wall-ers, but pardon me if I don't lose sleep over taking away their ability to be immune against colossals in melee. As far as the trample ruling goes, I just think it's silly (and more importantly, against the point of the game) that huge based models are actually worse at trampling than smaller warjacks. You would expect that a few winterguard wouldn't be much of a problem if a 30+ foot robot wanted to get past them, but the reality is that you need to use the rest of your army to clear a (rather wide) path. It just feels like you should be able to stroll through a unit no problem, instead of having them be a major roadblock. This might also increase the worth of medium based infantry, since now they're the only ones who can truly prevent tramples.

I'm not saying these would make the game more balanced, or anything like that. I haven't thought out the repercussions very much. I just think these changes would help colossals and battle engines feel more powerful on the battlefield, instead of clumsy and difficult to maneuvre.

[Demonster]

Give magical weapons an additional benefit.

Make throws less complicated.

[watchgeorgerock]

What if undead could never run or charge. They are cheaper point wise so you can take more to survive.

[Rogue Sun]

That might make them pretty worthless. Most undead models don't hit particularly hard, so they kind of NEED that extra charge die.

How about just +2 to damage rolls with fire attacks against undead models. That seems fair and not overly powerful.

[dkvoe]

I want widowmakera to be FA: U

I think this could potentially break the game so maybe just for a specific caster's tier list like eButcher and doom reavers.

[AJ the Ronin]

It doesn't have to go back to being as crippling, but the removal of it in MkII was a huge buff to infantry - disproportionately larger than any "buff" that jacks got.

Making the loss of a unit leader mean more than simply the new leader not being able to attack that turn would actually mean unit leaders (and in a lot of instances command itself) have some meaning on the battlefield. Personally I'd have promotion happen during the maintenance phase, but the new leader must be within the command range of a model with the Commander ability.

Wasn't that tried during the field test?

I think that change was brought because there were armies that could plink the leaders and then opponent end up with units that couldn't run, charge or use some of their special abilities. I remember that once of my main objectives on Mk.1 with Cygnar was to kill the leaders of the IF. Even if the caster was near enough to give them the charge order I deny them the option of shield wall.

[watchgeorgerock]

well I still say it needs a negative side effect for all of its awesomeness

[hausdorff space]

Wasn't that tried during the field test?

I think that change was brought because there were armies that could plink the leaders and then opponent end up with units that couldn't run, charge or use some of their special abilities. I remember that once of my main objectives on Mk.1 with Cygnar was to kill the leaders of the IF. Even if the caster was near enough to give them the charge order I deny them the option of shield wall.

My copy of Prime (MkI) makes mention of that as a key Khador strategy - using widowmakers and manhunter type models so your heavy armour has time to get up the field and engage.

As for the field test, I wouldn't know - I was busy at conferences for two weeks during the Warmachine one (the one that mattered from a core-rules perspective, also the shorter one) so pretty much missed it completely. Whatever the case may be, I will continue to sit in my corner declaring that the advent of automatic field promotion was a super ridiculously good buff to units.

well I still say it needs a negative side effect for all of its awesomeness

Just like Weapon Master needs a negative side effect?
I couldn be wrong, but I'm not aware of anything in the setting that indicates undeath is a negative state (aside from religious perspectives); being a thrall, on the other hand, is something quite distinct.

But there's no reason why there couldn't be an passive ability that gives you buffs when attacking such models - Death's Bane: this weapon gains +2 to attack and damage rolls when targetting an undead model.

[AJ the Ronin]

I would make it that the promoted model can not attack for a round.

I would also allow jacks to charge, run and make power attacks as long as they have focus on them without the need to spend it. I would add 2" spd while running to jacks that already can run for free.

[Sheer_Falacy]

well I still say it needs a negative side effect for all of its awesomeness

The only thing it needs is for them to stop making it more awesome (most abilities that only work on living are dumb and should just be non-construct or warrior or something).

Also, there is erosion - it's just really rare. Also evlad.

I would make it that the promoted model can not attack for a round.

That would make the leader the worst model in every squad. I like the current version where non-officer leaders don't matter much.

[elladan52]

I would make it that the promoted model can not attack for a round.

My friends and I actually thought that this was how it worked initially. It was pretty annoying, it was like having two models killed for every one.

[Navarp]

Give the Mountain King

Diehard: If them model begins a turn with no damage on it, then it cannot be boxed.

Diehard would work like an auto tough so long as you began the turn at full health.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

There are a lot of good ideas in here. Maybe I'm just a bit over exposed to Menoth, but I'd really like to see fire at either POW 9 or POW 10 instead of POW 12.

POW 12 is a death sentence to pretty much all infantry (or 2/3rds of infantry if you're lucky)

POW 10 is still a death sentence to high def/low arm models, Kayazy autopop, but WGI have a chance to survive.

POW 9 gives everyone a chance to survive, even the low armor models like Kayazy and Nyss can live on snake eyes. And it's dice -10 on most heavies. Which makes a lot more sense than dice -7 on a heavy.

-Rick

[OniBeowulf]

Fix the silly shield guard ruling.

a bit of insider info from L&L...Shield Guard will be fixed in the next errata.

[PG_Electric Seal]

All this talk of adding penalties to undead really just sounds like 'I can't beat cryx'. Menoth has absolutely no issue killing undead with its fire without any kind of additional buff. Undead statlines are already about as low as you can go for most things.

[watchgeorgerock]

I just feel undead models are under costed. They do have some negative side effects but like low cmd.. but then they are all fearless. Usually in a game setting undead has weaknesses and it just seems odd that its an advantage in this game. High model count is a huge advantage in a game where you roll dice and there are timed turns

[kolonelk]

+1 to fixing Shield Guard. For reals.

[PG_Alviaran]

I'd have Eyeless Sight changed. As it is it basically does four things:
-Forests do not block LOS
-Clouds do not block LOS
-Ignores Concealment
-Ignores Stealth

Honestly, at least one of those as to go, if not two of them. For the most part, this isn't an ability like Hunter that is fairly rareish being single units and such generally. Hell, I think Circle probably has more Hunter than anyone else and it is still fairly rare within the faction. But that Eyeless Sight is STANDARD for all Legion beasties is just a bit much.

Now, I would personally knock two of those abilities off (and give that to Legion beasties) while creating a better version that does what Eyeless Sight does now. This would be the Lylyth, Mohsar, etc. ability. Or the one that appears on Legion character beasts.

[Lalnuir]

I'd change immunities to suffer one less dice on that typed damage rolls rather than flat out ignoring damage.

I'd also make reach 1" instead of 2" for medium and small base models and give large based ones a 1" base melee range with reaching remaining at 2".

[PG_Draxos]

I'd make the damn arc nodes and LOS and Eyeless sight/ghost shot thing way easier to understand


EDIT: I'd also make it so the erratas have all of the infernal rulings in them. There have been a few times where it's like "really? they made that ruling?"

[TheLoki]

I would give back all the "Flying Steel" attacks generation solos/warlocks that ability back on a case by case basis.

THANK YOU. I've been saying this since the field test. I sorely miss this rule

[Terraneaux]

Want MK I Devout so bad. Though I'd settle for the ability to Shield Guard with Hymn of Passage up again, as well as just have Shield Guard be functional.

[Azuresun]

I think the Undead complaints are odd in the fact that Undead is obviously meant ot be a stragiht-up benefit. .

Undead does have a base benefit; immunity to morale checks. The problem comes when it gets more and more powerful with each new ability for any faction that specifies "living" models. No other ability has quite grown in power like that apart from "construct" (and construct infantry are rarer and more niche than undead). Sometimes this can be extremely dramatic; take a Kromac theme force with Ravagers, Bloodweavers and the Lord of the Feast and watch it plummet in effectiveness against an undead army. And a lot of the time, there's no reason the ability couldn't just say "Living or undead."

[TheLoki]

I have to agree. The biggest offender however is the overuse of the living requirement. Its so prevalent that its made undead a much stronger rule then i think they intended.

[warlorddrax]

rather, i think that that "living" requirement is more a nerf to Warbeasts than a benifit to undead...

as for a rule i would like changed... make that darn manoth book die like a normal solo, none of that 1 hitpoint crap.

Reckoner should cost 1 point more.

shield guard should work.

if you aim, you sacrafice all movement and advances, none of that aim then shoot and sprint away.

eHaily feat should be a pulse, not an aura.

pHaily temporal barrier (or whatever it is called) should be a 5 focus spell, or a feat.

Karchev works for Cryx now as long as Cryx is playing atleast a 100 point game with eDenny...
(haven't read collossals fluff, this comes from Wrath...) (like playing a merc caster as your second caster.)

eGaspy Hellbound is not an upkeep.

repair gets a .5 inch range like melee.

[mercury]

I'd reduce the POW of sprays, but make them actually capable of hitting things - I don't understand how you generate so many misses when attacking with something as indiscriminate as a flame thrower. Maybe so that they work a little like blast damage: if the target of the spray attack is under the template, it suffers a damage roll at full POW. All other models under the template suffer a damage roll at half POW.

[Cannotcope]

I would make it that the promoted model can not attack for a round.

Yes, because Light Artillery needs to be nerfed...

The only suggestion made so far that I can get behind is the 'fix shield guard' request.

I wouldn't be bothered if "Curse" was nerfed to require some sort of attack roll to hit, or to make it a special action rather than just a free boost. On the other hand, I also wouldn't be bothered if it wasn't changes at all.

[Mirumoto Kojiro]

I would let warjacks make melee attacks with ranged weapons. Surely someone, somewhere in the Cygnar has worked out how to attach a makeshift bayonet to a defender cannon.

[Kuwanger23]

I think Gaspy would very much disagree with your understanding.

The benefits of undeath is worth throwing yourself into a volcano for.

I have never found anything worth quoting to my taste on these forums. But this...this....I like.

I see a lot of great ideas in this thread. A few are:

Elemental weapons do something positive instead of maybe just making something immune to it.

The whole gator pulling into water thing. It's not broken just don't clump up your heavies. And I know you guys are all pulling out all sorts of jacks all the time right? I thought so.

And there were a few others but I have forgotten them lol.

I did like volume in MKII. That was a nice change. I disagree with the ruling to drag for any model that may have drag. No where in the rule book or on the card or in the tips does it say anything of the sort. This should be looked over again. It is not a big change but it makes more sense to be able to pull it as far as it is needed to get into combat and not into B2B.

[katadder]

make it so that weapons with dual elemental damage cannot be stopped by having just one of the elemental immunities - oh you're immune to fire, well eat the acid then.

[Cannotcope]

On the topic of elemental Immunities, I think it would be reasonable to also create elemental Vulnerabilities, where models that have that attribute take additional damage (perhaps a +2 or a boosted/additional die) from weapons with that damage type.

This would be a new rule, rather than a rules change, but it seems to fit the thread.

[Custardboy]

That might make them pretty worthless. Most undead models don't hit particularly hard, so they kind of NEED that extra charge die.

Heheh. Haha. Ha. Yep, undead infantry sure are pillow-fisted compared to other models
I would like it if an elemental attack had a positive side effect.

[MagnustheJust]

Failed. Thread seemed interesting at first until everyone started being a crybaby over undead (read: Cryx) again

Calling everyone a crybaby does not help either...

[moorg]

Vilmon and the Bokur get back Flying Steel, or instead have Rapid Strike. Make them at least somewhat comparable to their former selves.

Give Idrians back their RNG12 guns.

Give the Monolith Bearer back the DEF buff.

Make Doc's healing work on anyone again... He went from being a model I have a gold card for, to a model that hasn't hit the table in years.

[Azuresun]

Give Idrians back their RNG12 guns.

For Idrians, they just need to be a 5/8 unit, with a +2 UA. There's nothing wrong with the unit, but they are not better than Errants by any stretch of the imagination.

For Reeves of Orboros, change Snapfire to Dual Shot, and you suddenly have a unit that you might take instead of Nyss Hunters, and whose abilities don't invalidate each other.

[MagnustheJust]

Ye Gods!!! I just remembered two more that have been bugging me since the begining of MK-II...

Croe's Cutthroats... Why in the fudge burgers are they 7/10?!? Either give them +1 to MAT, RAT, and DEF or make them 6/9.

Magnus2 theme force - Magnus Agenda... Tier three must be amended to read :

TIER 3
Requirement : Army must include Saxon Orrik.
Benefit : Entire army gains pathfinder on first turn.


Currently, tier 3 requires TWO UNITS OF IDRIAN SKIRMISHERS!?!

There are PoM players who don't even have one unit, let alone two...

WHY??????????????????????????????????????????????? ????

[Mirumoto Kojiro]

Oh yeah, give Storm Nouns back their DEF 13.

[simon sez]

I wanna be able to stack upkeeps, not for any game balance reason, I just think that throwing all my eggs in one nuclear basket would be fun!