Traitors...

[Monly]

So I was thinking that the next expansion for Warmachine could see the switch of Warcasters from one Faction to the other and called "TRAITORS"

For example, they could convert Karchev to Cryx, and Caine could somehow go work as a Merc, and Deneghra could switch to Cygnar because of her sister being sick or something, and Feora could turn to Khador and etc.

By fluff standards, which I'll be honest, I havent read that much but know a little, if this where to happen, by fluff, what Warcasters would switch to which Faction to you guys?

The obvious would be Karchev to Cryx, but I would like to know if any of you guys that know more the fluff, if there are any reasons for other characters to switch?

[PG_Electric Seal]

So I was thinking that the next expansion for Warmachine could see the switch of Warcasters from one Faction to the other and called "TRAITORS"

For example, they could convert Karchev to Cryx, and Caine could somehow go work as a Merc, and Deneghra could switch to Cygnar because of her sister being sick or something, and Feora could turn to Khador and etc.

By fluff standards, which I'll be honest, I havent read that much but know a little, if this where to happen, by fluff, what Warcasters would switch to which Faction to you guys?

The obvious would be Karchev to Cryx, but I would like to know if any of you guys that know more the fluff, if there are any reasons for other characters to switch?

The problem I have with Karchev coming to Cryx is that you'd see new Karchev vs old Karchev matchups and have to pretend it's not the same person.

[Luthon]

Actually I could see more of something like allied troops since apparently everyone is partnering up. They could call it Warmachines: Deadly Allainces!

[PG_Asa]

People play faction on faction violence all the time. Also those character solos like the elf kill each other pretty regularly.

[Strangelove]

I would really prefer it for game purposes that everyone stays in their original faction. I don't like the idea of losing or sharing access to a certain character with another faction, and I literally hate the idea of seeing a caster fight him/herself in different factions. I don't really care what transpires in the fiction, as PP needs to tell a compelling story. I say let them be their own entities albeit ones that enrich each other.

[Tyr852]

People play faction on faction violence all the time. Also those character solos like the elf kill each other pretty regularly.

But in the fluff it's explained these other casters are imposters when it's the same models. For a totally different faction it might as well at that point be a totally different caster.

[Tyr852]

double post.

[PG_PolarBearCub]

I would really prefer it for game purposes that everyone stays in their original faction. I don't like the idea of losing or sharing access to a certain character with another faction, and I literally hate the idea of seeing a caster fight him/herself in different factions. I don't really care what transpires in the fiction, as PP needs to tell a compelling story. I say let them be their own entities albeit ones that enrich each other.

I feel the same way..but then Blaize came out and I had to share more of my models with those dirty mercs....

[MagnustheJust]

... nevermind.

[Indy]

While people have been throwing out these ideas since the bygone days of Escalation (Vlad's going to rebel! Stryker is going merc! Goreshade will join Everblight!), I do think there is at least some precedent for casters to shift their alignments, slightly, so to say. After all, Constance is both a Cygnar and a Merc model, Magnus may have some interesting hiring options going forward, and Eiyress3 will likely no longer be a Merc. So... maybe we could see a Cryx-ed Karchev in the future. Maybe Caine might start working as a merc on the sly. But maybe not. I do think it unlikely that PP will go overboard on switching casters around to different factions, and if anything it's more likely that you'll see more Ally style casters in the future, which isn't strictly speaking a faction swap.

[Northern Ronin]

The problem I have with Karchev coming to Cryx is that you'd see new Karchev vs old Karchev matchups and have to pretend it's not the same person.

And this is different from when Old Karchev vs Old Karchev Matchups happen? Or Eyriss vs Eyriss? Gorman on Gorman action? These things happen already anyway. Heck, Connie vs Connie (Merc vs Cygnar) is not an unreal matchup to think of, or when it's a mirror faction with the same Character Jack in the list. Games an abstraction, get over it.

That said, I think it as a book is a bad idea, as much as I like the idea of casters swapping factions. Make a fantastic league though, that (Hint hint) might get people playing other factions too.

[PG_GalacticCongressman]

Yeah, I remember posting something like this a while back (though Goreshade went to Retribution after he actually saved his people). Morrowan priests revive Denny and bring her back into the Cygnar fold. All sorts of fun possibilities.

[ScornEmperor]

I had the same thought while reading the lore for Colossals.

It does seem like they have a plan for Karchev and it could be a theme for a new expansion.

- You could have warcasters actually die off. This seems unlikely, given that Karchev and these other casters have a following.
- You could have warcasters change sides.
- You could have warcasters that are fieldable by two sides. Kind of like multi-color gold cards in Magic.

Who would convert from each faction?

Khador: Karchev -> Cryx
Cryx: Gorehsade -> Retribution (this seems unlikely, but could be a cool twist)
Cygnar: ??? We know that Haley has lost her powers, but it doesn't seem a reason for her to change factions.
Protectorate: ??? We know that Feora seems to be planning a coup. None of the other Warcasters seem to be in a position to change sides.
Retribution: ??? Again, no one here seems to be in a position of abandoning their cause.

The league idea is pretty cool.

I would expect both Karchev and Haley to power-up through their current experiences.

[profparm]

Who would convert from each faction?

Khador: Karchev -> Cryx
Cryx: Gorehsade -> Retribution (this seems unlikely, but could be a cool twist)
Cygnar: ??? We know that Haley has lost her powers, but it doesn't seem a reason for her to change factions.
Protectorate: ??? We know that Feora seems to be planning a coup. None of the other Warcasters seem to be in a position to change sides.
Retribution: ??? Again, no one here seems to be in a position of abandoning their cause.

Karchev is the most obvious one, which kinda makes me hope they go somewhere COMPLETELY different with it. I like the notions of Denny being revived, but I don't know enough about Goreshade's story to know if he'd switch. Haley could make a pact with Old Witch to get her powers back (putting two sisters at owing OW favors), possibly at the cost of service to Khador (although I think this one fits better in the "ally/dual-affiliation" camp), although if someone is switching to Khador, I prefer it to be a Protectorate warlock; I like the notion of a Khadoran Menite deciding to serve his original nation instead of his new one, and I know that Kreoss is at least a Protectorate Khadoran, although I doubt he'd switch.

[Vicomte Athos]

There are already is a Traitor model in the game. His name is Asphyxious.

[Grizwald]

There are already is a Traitor model in the game. His name is Asphyxious.

Magnus would like a word

[Coinlord]

When i heard about the fluff in Colossals, I immediately thought that this would be a good book for mercs. It seems like everyone's going rogue, not so much switching sides. As character's plots advance, their needs don't always suit that of their nation, and like Caine's been doing all along, sometimes you just need to get business done on the down low.

I think that we'll see a lot of old casters going Ally, if not in an actual new character set up (WarcasterX 3), then in additional rules for the expansion (like unbound), or new theme lists. It's easy enough for them to say ally casters can work for mercs and their faction, why cant they say... Faithful models will work for their factions or protectorate. Retribution Partisan will work for the Ret. etc. They can write in a section in the next book that has a list of swaps that can be made. If they go the theme list way, just look at Magnus's nonsense.

Or, if you recall, everyone in Colossals teamed up. Mayhaps we'll see some interesting two vs two team rules.

[hamsandwich50]

I've always thought that they should do a civil war book, so casters wouldn't switch sides but you would get new incarnations based on their where they fell on the conflict. It seems that a good portion of the factions have so divisive internal struggles and that seeing some lines being drawn would be cool. For example you could have Feora attempt a coup against Severius and have the various casters on one side or another.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

The odds of Karchev flipping are slim to nil. If you read the fluff about him, he's nie uncrackable, more violent than the Butcher, and more dedicated to the Motherland than Irusk.

I haven't had a chance to read the full Colossals fluff yet, but in the excerpt they let out, he's been being tortchered for longer than any human aught to be able to survive, and when Denny walks into the room he is still on the cusp of killing her.

Given the fight Scaverous had trying to get a Koldun lord to cough up his secrets from the grave, and the immense knowledge and power that Karchev has, I'd venture a guess that even in death he couldn't be turned.

And with the most recent fluff about him in NQ42, combined with the leak of Lylith3 on a huge base, really, really makes me think that he's going to get rescued from the hole Denny dragged him into (I'm guessing by Strakov and a character clam-jack), and he'll be making an appearance by the next set of books on his own huge base

Karlossal!

-Rick

[PG_Shi_no_Kami]

Goreshade has already switched factions... Fluff wise, he was the head of House Vyre in Ios well before he became a minion of the Dragonfather. He was the narcissar of House Vyre, Ghyrrshyld. House Vyre's name is still shamed to this day.

[thesavage]

Sins of the Iron Kingdoms: Rebellion.

[Vicomte Athos]

Magnus would like a word

Treason in his case is a matter of dates. He serves the true king of Cygnar (ducks) so he really isn't a traitor, just a patriot in waiting.

[PG_Asa]

Technically Eiryss is changing factions from merc to ret with her new character unit coming up, right?

[ProtoClone]

While I am not sure about having a book about this, the idea is always fun.

Why not have a special event for this? PP sets it up, lays down the rules, and arranges the who goes where and players arrange their lists by the rules they are given.

Each warcaster would have new set of ability for the event only...sort of like a limited edition stat card for those who participated.

[ProtoClone]

Double post.

[MidnightFox0083]

Treason in his case is a matter of dates. He serves the true king of Cygnar (ducks) so he really isn't a traitor, just a patriot in waiting.

You mean Julius?

[Sygerrik]

Julius is the true heir, he isn't the true king​ until Vinter dies.

[MidnightFox0083]

Julius is the true heir, he isn't the true king​ until Vinter dies.

Yes, but Magnus doesn't serve Vinter anymore.

Not after Morghoul to had a little... chat with Magnus.

[Sygerrik]

Yes, but Magnus doesn't serve Vinter anymore.

Not after Morghoul to had a little... chat with Magnus.

True. Doesn't make Julius the true king though, just Magnus's favorite candidate.

[AshenFang]

I'd much rather seen a sort of.. History of the IronKingdoms book.. with models like:
Asphyxious when he was a druid, Karchev Pre-gibbing, and other either historical figures, or figures that had a former state which we never got to see. The only faction that this wouldn't work well for, would be Everblight.. as we've been pretty much able to follow them from their birth as an army.

[computertrucker]

I personally think alternate theme forces would be the way to go... Example allow feora to take Cygnar models in a betrayal theme force

[PG_Feeple]

I think you'd see this by giving more Ally Warcasters. It would be fun, but difficult, as from a game perspective you'd have to balance the caster for two factions.

[Scottl1]

Harby martyring banes :3

[PG_ikildkenny]

I could imagine double faction Casters ... at least to a certain degree:

Karchev Cryx/Khador
Vlad Khador/Menoth (allthough that one is HIGHLY unlikely, since he allready has 3 incarnations)
Goreshade Cryx/Retribution
Caine Cygnar/Mercs (BUT only working for the 2 big contracts - Highborn and Fourstar)
Feora Menoth/X

just as a thought

[leo_neil316]

For example, they could convert Karchev to Cryx, and Caine could somehow go work as a Merc

God, this thread again.

Why is it always 'caine could be a merc!'.

I mean, surely a guy who was around for the lions coup, is actively trying to kill magnus and vinter's bastard, has murdered in cold blood most of the former inquisition and is secretly one of the most trusted agents of the crown is less likely to go merc than, say.

The Cygnar caster who -IS- a merc already?

[PG_ikildkenny]

and who would that be? I mean, except conny of course (as she is technically not a merc but an ally)

[Exar]

Magnus maybe?
Would be my Guess...although that is more "Coming home" than being a Traitor...

[Coinlord]

God, this thread again.

Why is it always 'caine could be a merc!'.

I mean, surely a guy who was around for the lions coup, is actively trying to kill magnus and vinter's bastard, has murdered in cold blood most of the former inquisition and is secretly one of the most trusted agents of the crown is less likely to go merc than, say.

The Cygnar caster who -IS- a merc already?

Because he needs discretion. Sign up a company of steel heads under a fake name, say you have a grudge to settle with this Julius kid, and go hunt him down. It's much easier to be covert with people who don't know who you are.

[Alienated One]

I had the same thought while reading the lore for Colossals.
Retribution: ??? Again, no one here seems to be in a position of abandoning their cause.

Ossyan: "Stryker, Stryker, I've got some dire news for you. You, of course, play a pivotal role in the end of the world. In my timeline, you failed. I've come back from the future to assist you in saving the world in this timeline."

There, solved.

[Trygle]

I really want something like this to happen. It seems interesting and could create some amazing narrative.

...but the pushback is just surprising!

I am amazed that people get so worked up over a caster changing allegiances.