Colossals: End of Days?

[Obeisance]

The problem with Colossals, is that unless you have a list specifically designed to kill them- or you lose. I've watched a lot of games on Vassal, like 15-20 games with Colossals. Pretty much every game is the same. Even if they don't do that much damage, they'll stack ARM buffs and you just can't kill it.

Infantry is obsolete against them.
Opponents can't score due to them sitting in the zone.
Opponents can't move them out of the zone to score because they're immovable.
Opponents can't assassinate because casters are sitting behind it.

Seen a total of two losses. a) Kraken got double teamed by Menoth jacks. b) Cygnar player tried to ranged assassinate Morvanha, who has Sacpawn. The rest have been wins. I've seen Vyros with double Hyperion shred eGaspy. pHaley with double Storm Strider and Stormwall, rest of the list was Gun Mages. 11 model Bart with ARM 24 Galleon. (23? I forget)

Like, I understand that PP has been trying to put an end to Infantrymachine.. and this may be the final nail in the coffin. I'm actually kinda worried about them ruining the game. Or more to the point, ruining tournament play.

You're going to have to bring at least one list capable of dropping a Colossal.

edit:

I anticipate the sale of eVayl to go through the roof. =p

[Northern Ronin]

You've HAD to bring 1 list capable of dealing with Infantry (you likely still do). If you bring a list that can deal with 2-3 Heavy Targets (i.E Jacks), you've the fire power to deal with a colossal.

[PG_Nemlock]

I anticipate the sale of eVayl to go through the roof. =p

This should have already been happening. Even when everyone wasn't completely sold on her (I freaking love her) Jake came out and said she was great. That alone probably sold tons of em. My favorite part about eVayl is your opponent will probably be so proud of their colossal, and then she'll find a way to arc spells and completely ignore the huge jack and make the assassination anyway.

[boingboing]

Hi Obeisance, what were the point totals for most of the matches that you watched? 35? 50? Were any opposing lists that faced Colossals focused heavily on manueverable assassination lists like a legion list with raptors and Annyssa, or something with multiple Ravagores or an ECaine list, or maybe even some strange Rhyas list just trying for a teleport assassination? Does sorceress on hellion do anything to the colossals and their focus on ranged attacks?

Did the colossals seem to just completely hose certain lists--like lists focused on banestuff or other infantry spam lists? sorry for all the questions...just wondering how the matches went. Really hoping the game doesn't just become colossals or bust.

[PG_BloodRath]

.... Really hoping the game doesn't just become colossals or bust.

you and me both. im way to poor to afford this being the norm. sure ill by an archangel because i have pg points to spend but even then i still never want to see a game become specific to the "BUY or DIE" trend 40k is/was/always will be. i guess we will just have to wait and see how the game trends. i have faith in PPS guys to keep things balanced

[Obeisance]

Yeah. I have enough faith in PP that they won't screw us.. but they can't control their consumer base.

[Northern Ronin]

Hi Obeisance, what were the point totals for most of the matches that you watched? 35? 50? Were any opposing lists that faced Colossals focused heavily on manueverable assassination lists like a legion list with raptors and Annyssa, or something with multiple Ravagores or an ECaine list, or maybe even some strange Rhyas list just trying for a teleport assassination? Does sorceress on hellion do anything to the colossals and their focus on ranged attacks?

Did the colossals seem to just completely hose certain lists--like lists focused on banestuff or other infantry spam lists? sorry for all the questions...just wondering how the matches went. Really hoping the game doesn't just become colossals or bust.

I know Stormwall is really good at dealing with Banes due to the covering fire. Khador one will likely also do well against them. Kayazy also will have a very hard time dealing with it. But I really have to ask, is a counter to the current top dog of the meta really that awful? People have been struggling against bane spam and Kayazy for a while now without a hard counter appearing, and for the same cost, you can often get more sheer killing power out of 2 jacks + solo. After playing against both the Stormwall and Mountain King with a very solid list (MK + Mulg with doomie), I realize I lost mostly because of my failure to play and deploy right against it (I'm used to spreading heavies out, but due to good screens and well placed forcelocks, this stopped me from getting much fire power to either Mulg or the King, meaning I could only half kill, which is an awful spot to be in). Stormwall with Nemo was also really good due to support, E-Vayl would have easily trumped it, (was running a wackyish Benthyne list), I still killed much of his army (almost every unit to the man, his other heavy and messed up his Thorn), I still managed to cut half of the Stormwall down while it had arcane shield. That's hardly what I'd call unkillable, more so for us in Legion, as we tend to deal with killing power against a single target pretty well with Scytheans, Carnies and Angels.

[Triumph Of Man]

Infantry is obsolete against them.

That's a pretty sweeping general statement.

[muag]

i dont think its the beginning of the end its just its new and there will be a learning curve to collosals just like when you first got into the gametthink of this way how do you kill a dire troll with masive defensive buff with out removeing said buffs you debuff it and focus fire it down

[DrakkenBlut]

It's just a paradigm shift. Replace collosal with infantry in the first post and you get a picture of WM at the tail end of MK1.

Collossals are also a liability since they're the best targets for both buffs and debuffs. That Vassal score is expected; there will be lots of losses until it gets figured out how to deal with them.

[Steveistall]

Honestly, I feel like legion is one of the best equipped factions to deal with colossals. We've got Scytheans, who have a pretty respectable damage output, with a really significant threat range, we've got the black frost shard to buff damage, we've got several casters - eThagrosh, Kallus, pVayl, Lylyth - who can buff damage still further and then, most of all, we've got the nightlurker to bypass def and arm buffs.

Kiss of lyliss plus ice cage, plus two charges from blessed Scytheans = dead colossal. Pretty much every time. You're looking at hitting on threes, with six attacks each doing at worst dice minus one. That's 79 damage on average dice.

I'm still more worried about infantry spam.

[Cannotcope]

That's great it starts with an earthquake
Birds and snakes and aeroplane
And Lenny Bruce is not afraid
...
A tournament, a tournament, a tournament of lies
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives
And I decline

Honestly, I think Legion is going to be ok. Yeah one unbuffed Scythean might not be able to do the deed. However a Naga supplying Blessed to ignore Arcane Shield, Defenders Ward, or other buff will help. As will our own buffs/debuffs like Incite, Draconic Blessing, Kiss or Parasite.

So vs Stormwall: a Scythean benefiting from Blessed and Parasite on Stormwall will be hitting on 4s at Dice +1 damage. Two initials, a good chance of the chain attack and up to 4 more attacks => seven attacks averaging 8 damage each. 8x7=56 = number of damage boxes on Stormwall...

Hmmm, I take it back, I guess one buffed Scythean can do the job without rolling above average...

[Seferon]

I don't think it will be as big of a deal as you would think. The same thing was said about Battle Engines when they first came out. People are just gonna make them insanely high armor and then you have to put a ton of resources into it to deal with it. It didn't turn out to be nearly as big of a deal as several people had thought. Sure, this is a much more extreme degree because of the amount of damage boxes but think about it. Ok, my opponent buffs the hell out of a Colossal and makes it armor 24 to 27. Alright, thats cool. Now look at every faction in that game and see how many of them have access to spell debuffs/ways to get rid of spells. Just about every faction in the game has the ability to get rid of buffs and the ones that don't typically have a way to make they're models hit so hard that 2 heavies could take them out fairly easily. The best thing about this is that a majority of list being played in tournaments are these lists that have ways to get rid of buffs.

Legion: Naga ((when it comes out)), eVayl, pVayl ((feat + Incite + 2 Heavies should bring a clossal down enough that you can just back up and kill it next turn with one heavy.))
Circle: Pureblood + Whatever else i don't know of off the top of my head.
Trolls: They have the ability to buff they're heavies to huge pow and have access to Purification on one warlock, and then i think one of their warlocks has a mini one on their weapon or something. Maybe its a animus.
Skorne: Ummm i don't remember anything off the top of my head, but i think they have the ability to get pow 22 or 23 Bronzebacks.
Menoth: Purification on two warcasters, Choir, A jack that can get rid of Buffs, Access to Eryiss ((spelling?))
Khador: Access to Eryiss if i remember correctly.
Crygnar: Again, access to Eryiss.
Cygnar: If stormwall is armor 23 pDenny can bring it down to armor 16 with Parasite, Feat, and Banethrall. Dice minus 5 on a charge. Yeah, a couple of Banes and a Nightmare or some other heavy can deal with a buffed colossal.


Left out Minions and Mercs just because they really don't have anything that can do to much to a buff colossal.

Something else to point out, who is to say that 50 points is going to be the normal point level to play when Colossals are all out for both sides. Maybe we will end up going to 75 points which in that case gives all factions access to more resources to deal with these Colossals.

[Neutralyze]

This should have already been happening. Even when everyone wasn't completely sold on her (I freaking love her) Jake came out and said she was great. That alone probably sold tons of em. My favorite part about eVayl is your opponent will probably be so proud of their colossal, and then she'll find a way to arc spells and completely ignore the huge jack and make the assassination anyway.

i came out at first after playing a bunch of games saying she was hard to play and different. not until after templecon did i say she was good. i finally got a handle on her!

[Belthazar1113]

thats strange because i have seen about a half dozen games at my shop with the mountain king and stormwall and i have seen a few victories and a few losses. anything you have that can crack two heavys in one turn can generally deal with a collasal. I have seen reznik do it by himself vs the stormwall, and i have seen an earthborn and a mauler kill it too. I myself have used a ravgor shot and a carnivean to wreck the mountain king.

I dont think infantry is going to be particularly effective against them, but then i dont think infantry is particularly effective against ANY high armor target. Angels can do a bangup hit, any of our heavys can just charge and wreck at least half of one, you just have to understand that a collasal is like brinign 2.5 heavys to the table. you have to have a list that can stand up to 3 or 4 heavy jack/beast on the opposing side. if you can deal with that, you can deal with what they put out.

sure it changes the game, but ever new release does. also side note, bring a naga. wraithbane does wonders to negate the buffs they try to stack on a collasal to protect their investment.

[Archnomad]

Why eVayl? Surely pVayl would do a better job of it with Incite?

Colossals really don't phase me. Sure you can't one round them. They can't one round very much either.

[PG_Nemlock]

Why eVayl? Surely pVayl would do a better job of it with Incite?

Colossals really don't phase me. Sure you can't one round them. They can't one round very much either.

eVayl because screw your Colossal, I'm just going to channel thru a beast and kill you myself?

[Archnomad]

eVayl because screw your Colossal, I'm just going to channel thru a beast and kill you myself?

Usually people I play against camp if they're in danger of being assassinated. And the only warcaster I think if overly powerful with a Colossal so far is pHaley, and you can't spell assassinate her.

And even then LoE have a good matchup against her.

And colossals can't one round a heavy with defensive buffs, and they really struggle against things like an Angelius because they're mat6. Not really impressed.

[PG_Nemlock]

It can be very difficult to see the assassination coming from eVayl. Hell even I don't see it sometimes until I move a few pieces. Legionairres feeding the pot and it spewing out a lesser make for awesome angles.

[Archnomad]

Not if you've seen eVayl play a tonne. She can cast tops 3 oblits and an icy grip. That's with no boosts, so realistically it's a boosted icy grip, and then 2 oblits with 3 boosts.

[PG_Nemlock]

Yeah. The spells she'll cast aren't the surprise. It's the vector she approaches at. Especially if you say..spawned a stinger within 10 inches of the target to be killed. That's a hefty missile to chuck at the caster if eVayl can't seal the deal herself. Anyways, this is going off topic here. I think eVayl and Saeryn will still be completely viable if approached with a Colossal. pThags maybe, if you can cycle Draconic on 2 heavies and they can both reach it. eThags could probably still do amazing things with Manifest Destiny but I worry he'd be so caught up in cracking Colossal armor he'd be vulnerable to the rest of the army. Not to mention him getting shot since he's on a huge base. pVayl could make awesome things happen with Incite but her super squishiness would just be magnified. Kallus would be funny I think, with a chance because of Ignite. I can't think of any others off the top of my head that could do what we're looking for.

[Scottl1]

Saeryn might has a problem if the colossal has an aoe but the single shot stuff would be hard pressed to hit her espeacially if she has gobbers, wall, etc.

eVayl would be solid(for the record though the 2 angels she normally brings drive me crazy). The things about her too is the colossal with it's huge arc could be a superb arc node or any model with a 360 front arc. She's very tricky to shut down all angles with the pot, angels, oraculi and spell martyr.

eLylyth and company can put a hurting down since the colossal gets no cover espeacially at 50 when she could have 3 ravagores.

eThag could be solid but would have to watch his control for manifest destiny+feat.

pThag with fog could do it with 3-4 beasts.

I kinda feel vs this things if you run less then 3 beasts you will have a hard time killing a colossal since your opponent can single them out as the only true threats.

[HellecticMojo]

I'm actually surprised phobia brewing in the Legion forum of all things.

Legion is one of the most mobile and hardest hitting faction in the game. If anyone's going to have problems cracking armor and living to tell the tale, it's circle, not you guys.

[Sir Bacon]

Phayle and 2 stormwalls how to put down plz... Some say run around them and get to the caster but that's easy said then done no charge and no spells now im not saying you can't get one out of two but the next SW is taken a beast and once you start losing beast it's down hill From there I know we all talk about it but it's not looking good.eLylyth sounds good too me but when one gets the charge in or slam with one hand mind you it's tough ladies and gentlemen.........

[Roadhouse]

I'm actually surprised phobia brewing in the Legion forum of all things.

Legion is one of the most mobile and hardest hitting faction in the game. If anyone's going to have problems cracking armor and living to tell the tale, it's circle, not you guys.

eKaya will kill colossals all day long without having to trade, the beasts won't even take fire due to Shadow Pack.

I don't think any of the Hordes factions have to seriously change builds to handle Colossals, a more likely change will be in the application of those lists; instead of A and B charging X and Y, they'll both charge C and if you've positioned A, B, and the other ~30 points of your force properly you won't lose them both/will continue trading to your benefit.

[Warcaster Feiss]

Usually people I play against camp if they're in danger of being assassinated. And the only warcaster I think if overly powerful with a Colossal so far is pHaley, and you can't spell assassinate her.

And even then LoE have a good matchup against her.

And colossals can't one round a heavy with defensive buffs, and they really struggle against things like an Angelius because they're mat6. Not really impressed.

Haley1 isn't as bad as people are making out when it comes to spell assassination, simply by virtue of the Focus mechanic. She can't do *everything* she wants to with her Focus every turn.

If she's casting Temporal Barrier to stop your heavies charging Stormwall, that leaves her with 3 Focus max. 2 if she's upkeeping Arcane Shield. Either she camps those two for Arcane Vortex and Stormwall gets nothing, in which case it's putting out unboosted shots which isn't really that impressive for 19pts worth of 'jack (anything less than 3 Focus a turn isn't getting the most value from Stormwall's big guns, which is fine by me).

If she's giving Stormwall Focus for boosts then Haley1 has nothing on her, you can potentially nail her with 3 Obliterations.

If she's allocating Focus to Stormwall, and keeping Focus on her for Arcane Vortex, then she doesn't have Temporal Barrier up, so your heavies are free to charge Stormwall. Have at it

[Lalnuir]

Haley1 isn't as bad as people are making out when it comes to spell assassination, simply by virtue of the Focus mechanic. She can't do *everything* she wants to with her Focus every turn.

If she's casting Temporal Barrier to stop your heavies charging Stormwall, that leaves her with 3 Focus max. 2 if she's upkeeping Arcane Shield. Either she camps those two for Arcane Vortex and Stormwall gets nothing, in which case it's putting out unboosted shots which isn't really that impressive for 19pts worth of 'jack (anything less than 3 Focus a turn isn't getting the most value from Stormwall's big guns, which is fine by me).

If she's giving Stormwall Focus for boosts then Haley1 has nothing on her, you can potentially nail her with 3 Obliterations.

If she's allocating Focus to Stormwall, and keeping Focus on her for Arcane Vortex, then she doesn't have Temporal Barrier up, so your heavies are free to charge Stormwall. Have at it

You are forgetting the squire. Really want squire when you're casting temporal barrier which isn't only no run/charge but also -2 DEF so need to boost less against some targets.
Strangeways can also give one of your walls focus if you want (he also has repair and can give a jack immunity to free strikes so pretty useful guy to have around).
You can even run the other on junior and have him give it two focus and upkeep arcane shield on it if you really want, placing 19 points worth of jack on junior might not be the best idea but you do have two huge bases to hide behind.

[Seferon]

The reason behind eVayl is that the topic was originally talking about a buffed armor 23 or so Storm wall and what we could do against it. eVayl gets rid of the buffs so its always a armor 19 when you go in on it to kill it. While she doesn't play a role in damage buffs, she does play a role in making the Colossals manageable.

[DrakkenBlut]

eVayl also has a constant caster kill threat with her feat. Two Obliterations, fully boosted, if they hit, inflict an average of 17 dmg on a 17 ARM target, so a warcaster needs to =be very careful on how much focus he/she camps. So eVayl can go brutal on the Collossals, but can also go around them.

How viable is Thrullg against a Collossal? It seems that when it gets there, a Thrullg can do some damage, but the question is how likely is one to get there?

[Archnomad]

It makes it ARM22, but yeah, eVayl totally has game because Stormwall (and colossals in general) don't like high def beasts. pThag only really needs one beast. A colossal allocated 3 focus doesn't one round a Scythean under pThags, it needs help (it gets left on 5 boxes assuming it hits all it's attacks hitting on 5s). In addition that'll mean it takes 10 from Spiny Growth, where a scythean that charges one with arcane shield up will do 27.5 damage on average with Draconic blessing. That's over half it's boxes.

[Archnomad]

Haley1 isn't as bad as people are making out when it comes to spell assassination, simply by virtue of the Focus mechanic. She can't do *everything* she wants to with her Focus every turn.

If she's casting Temporal Barrier to stop your heavies charging Stormwall, that leaves her with 3 Focus max. 2 if she's upkeeping Arcane Shield. Either she camps those two for Arcane Vortex and Stormwall gets nothing, in which case it's putting out unboosted shots which isn't really that impressive for 19pts worth of 'jack (anything less than 3 Focus a turn isn't getting the most value from Stormwall's big guns, which is fine by me).

If she's giving Stormwall Focus for boosts then Haley1 has nothing on her, you can potentially nail her with 3 Obliterations.

If she's allocating Focus to Stormwall, and keeping Focus on her for Arcane Vortex, then she doesn't have Temporal Barrier up, so your heavies are free to charge Stormwall. Have at it

If she casts TB and upkeeps arcane shield (and against eVayl it's probably purified, so I'd hardcast it with juniour) she's at 3 for the majority of the game because she has Squire. TB also reduces everything within 16" of Haley's Def by 2. Which means focus isn't such a big deal on the Stormwall, especially in later turns where it can aim for effective rat10. So, if I was playing pHaley against eVayl, I would camp 3 any time you have a possible vector, and just rely on TB to hit you.

[DrakkenBlut]

I'm actually surprised phobia brewing in the Legion forum of all things.

Legion is one of the most mobile and hardest hitting faction in the game. If anyone's going to have problems cracking armor and living to tell the tale, it's circle, not you guys.

Actually, Leigion is the only faction that doesn't have a single beast that you can stack buffs on and it goes to kill a Collossal. Circle has the Feral, Ghetorix, and even Stalker may do it, I'd have to check the math though. Trollbloods have Mulg and Earthborn if there's a Caber around. Actually, seeing how Rage is such a great buff, maybe the other Dires can do it as well. And Skorne have the Bronzeback.

All of those can be buffed first and then sent into action. We have to debuff the Collossal thereby exposing our lock/BFS, and it can be done, but I think Legion players have a bit more of a conundrum here compared to other factions.

[Seferon]

Actually, Leigion is the only faction that doesn't have a single beast that you can stack buffs on and it goes to kill a Collossal. Circle has the Feral, Ghetorix, and even Stalker may do it, I'd have to check the math though. Trollbloods have Mulg and Earthborn if there's a Caber around. Actually, seeing how Rage is such a great buff, maybe the other Dires can do it as well. And Skorne have the Bronzeback.

All of those can be buffed first and then sent into action. We have to debuff the Collossal thereby exposing our lock/BFS, and it can be done, but I think Legion players have a bit more of a conundrum here compared to other factions.

The bold part is wrong. If i remember correctly, you have to have a warbeast that can get 7 attacks in at pow 25+ with one being a charge in order to kill a armor 22, 57 box stormwall and that is only if you come out completely average and roll a 10 on charge damage and 7's for the other 6 attacks. Yeah, there is no heavy warbeast in the game that can achieve this unless you can show me a heavy that has 3 pow 19 ish weapons base.

I wont say all factions because there may be a way to do it that i don't know of, but almost every faction in the game is going to have to send two heavies into a colossal to kill it in one turn even if the heavies are buffed. Legion can do this as well with pVayl using a Scythean and a Carnivean. Pthag can also do it by hot swapping Dragonic Blessing. Kallus can do it as well but it would leave him naked at the end of the turn if you dark guidance. Plylyth can do it as well. Abby can do it too.

[Lalnuir]

The bold part is wrong. If i remember correctly, you have to have a warbeast that can get 7 attacks in at pow 25+ with one being a charge in order to kill a armor 22, 57 box stormwall and that is only if you come out completely average and roll a 10 on charge damage and 7's for the other 6 attacks. Yeah, there is no heavy warbeast in the game that can achieve this unless you can show me a heavy that has 3 pow 19 ish weapons base.

BB is POW 17 on it's fists and 16 on the tusks, base.
beast handlers give +2 str and Xeris adds +3 damage from fury amd am additional dice on his feat.
So dice minus 1 on fists and -2 on tusks and if we say the average is 3.5 per dice you'd end up with
6 fists doing 9.5 damage each and 1 tusk attack doing 8.5 damage and you end up with 65.5 damage

The problem is getting the BB into melee range with the stormwall xD

[Seferon]

BB is POW 17 on it's fists and 16 on the tusks, base.
beast handlers give +2 str and Xeris adds +3 damage from fury amd am additional dice on his feat.
So dice minus 1 on fists and -2 on tusks and if we say the average is 3.5 per dice you'd end up with
6 fists doing 9.5 damage each and 1 tusk attack doing 8.5 damage and you end up with 65.5 damage

The problem is getting the BB into melee range with the stormwall xD

Yeah, thats why i said that i'm not gonna say that no warbeast can do it in one activation. In any case its maybe 1 warbeast in the entire game that can actually go out and scrap a colossal in one activation on decent dice rolls.

I think i might have run my numbers wrong now that i go back and think about it. Let me look again.

Pow 23 Carnivean bite
Pow 21 fists
pow 19 Assualt

11
6
6
4
8
8
8
8

59 damage

So, a Carnivean with pLylyth under Parasite and Kiss buff/debuffs can kill it in one activation on completely average dice rolls. So yeah, i guess Legion does have the ability to scrap a Colossal in one activation.

[DrakkenBlut]

I was counting ARM 19 as base, since everybody is brainstorming about removing buffs from the Collossal. At that point, you need only POW 20 applied seven times. All other factions can do it in one beast, we cannot, our best bet is the Carnivean, and it falls short. One of the points is that other factions have layered buffs, 2-3 of them, while we have only one, or none (only locks can buff, none of our animi/other effects do that.) Yes, we can debuff, but I've already addressed that.

Lalnuir: BB gets one more tusk attack (chain attack headbutt) and one more fist(doesn't have to force to charge, another thing Legion is lacking).

Edit: Seferon, that is a corner case, only with pLyl. Actually, I do plan to test out such an army (pLyl, BFS, Carni and a couple of Seraphs to move things around). Point is that even in this scenario, your warlock and debuff unit needs to be close to the target. All other factions can do that while the warlock stays safe. So still, onebeastattackkillingacollossal is less Legions domain, more other factions.

Oh, and the Stormwall in that scenario had Arcane shield up, right? A naga would have given the Carni another +3 to dmg. But it wouldn't do a lot against Khador or other Collossals, so...

[katadder]

pLylth, shoots, parasites and carni then gets to charge for free before biting lots.

[Seferon]

I was counting ARM 19 as base, since everybody is brainstorming about removing buffs from the Collossal. At that point, you need only POW 20 applied seven times. All other factions can do it in one beast, we cannot, our best bet is the Carnivean, and it falls short. One of the points is that other factions have layered buffs, 2-3 of them, while we have only one, or none (only locks can buff, none of our animi/other effects do that.) Yes, we can debuff, but I've already addressed that.

Lalnuir: BB gets one more tusk attack (chain attack headbutt) and one more fist(doesn't have to force to charge, another thing Legion is lacking).

Legion can charge for free with pLylyth and nephlim soldier animus. Also, the Carnivean doesn't fall short if you take with plylyth. I did the above math earlier with a buffed armor 22 Stormwall. It actually comes out 2 points over. Legion as the ability to kill a Colossal in one activation. I didn't think so but apparently we can.

[Lalnuir]

Also it's only Cygnar who can bring a +ARM buff regardless of caster
Khador has only has Harkevichs feat.
Menoth has 4 casters with a +ARM buff
Cryx have 3 casters with a +ARM buff and then pSkarres feat.
Ret has 1 caster with a +ARM buff
I don't remember which mercs have a +ARM buff and don't have the book on me.

So while most people will take a colossal when they can buff it, not everyone will (except for Cygnar).
eFeroa likes the Judicator for example but she can't buff it's armor.

Lalnuir: BB gets one more tusk attack (chain attack headbutt) and one more fist(doesn't have to force to charge, another thing Legion is lacking).

Can't head butt a model with a larger base than you. I thought you could and the knockdown just wouldn't have an effect so I checked before posting.
I also didn't force to charge because we were talking about pHaley, I just thought the BB was 4 fury not 5.

[Lalnuir]

Oops double post.