Colossals: End of Days?

[DrakkenBlut]

Forgot about the Soldier... yes, we can charge for free.

[Seferon]

There is something else no one has really put forth. What about just outright ways to deal with Colossals. Not really killing them, but just making them not do anything to entire game. I mean, Saeryn again comes to mind in the sense of just putting Breath Stealer on the Colossal every turn and laughing at it as it can only move 2 to 3 inches a turn. Abby just drops a blight field on it every turn and then it doesn't do anything for the rest of the game. There is also the fact that we are legion, we are a lot more maneuverable then a lot of other factions. We have the ability to just ignore the Colossals until after we have dealt with other key threats. Deal with it whenever we know that we wont have to much retaliation after we put it into the dirt. Then there is the fact that we don't know what are Colossal does. As far as we know it could be able to kill other Colossals itself, or it could have a damage buff for a animus. We just don't know right now without seeing what it does.

[Lalnuir]

There is something else no one has really put forth. What about just outright ways to deal with Colossals. Not really killing them, but just making them not do anything to entire game. I mean, Saeryn again comes to mind in the sense of just putting Breath Stealer on the Colossal every turn and laughing at it as it can only move 2 to 3 inches a turn. Abby just drops a blight field on it every turn and then it doesn't do anything for the rest of the game. There is also the fact that we are legion, we are a lot more maneuverable then a lot of other factions. We have the ability to just ignore the Colossals until after we have dealt with other key threats. Deal with it whenever we know that we wont have to much retaliation after we put it into the dirt. Then there is the fact that we don't know what are Colossal does. As far as we know it could be able to kill other Colossals itself, or it could have a damage buff for a animus. We just don't know right now without seeing what it does.

Neut has already mentioned using a raek to weapon lock a collasal and then blight field it.
The issue with breath stealer is the -defense isn't much help and all the colossal have decent ranged fire power so even when they move 2-3" a turn they can still hurt.
Breath stealer also isn't an upkeep.

[DrakkenBlut]

Next Hordes book will be a full edition. So not only could the Archangel have a buffing animus, but other warbeasts/solos/units may provide such an effect.

It just hit me... The Throne is worthless now. You cannot stand up to a Collossal with the Throne eating up pts in an army. The only exception may be a Rhyas list, where on the feat turn the Throne could attack the Collossal and get slingshot a whole lot more.

I wonder if it's the same with other BEs?

[Sir Bacon]

You can't really weapon lock a collasal with a reak there strength is already to high they will get dice plus 5 before rolling or 6

[Archnomad]

You can't really weapon lock a collasal with a reak there strength is already to high they will get dice plus 5 before rolling or 6

That's not the point. The colossal has to spend it's next activation shaking the weapon lock.

In fact, wouldn't this only work with Abby? Pretty sure you need to have an Open Fist. But the trick is advance 7", leap behind it and Weapon Lock.

[Defenstrator]

Yes it only work with Abby because locks require an open fist. The Legion beasts that can do it without Playing God are the Carnivean and Ravagore. Note that it can still be worth doing with them. If you have destroyed one side of a colossal the lock will prevent your opponent from turning the colossal so the undamaged arc can make attacks.


And again, the point of the lock generally isn't to hold it, but to prevent movement and initial attacks for a turn.

[ikbuh]

Abby shouldn't have a problem with Colassals. Blight Field neuters them, especially with a Raek humping it. If they have two, that's fine because it pretty much leaves them wide open for an Angel to run in there and do it's job.

[Defenstrator]

One thing to note is it seems to be possible for a Colossal to shoot even after breaking a lock. While it loses its initial attacks, as long as it doesn't make a melee attack and has focus to spend it can still buy ranged attacks with its guns since they haven't fired. This is based off the ruling of Zerkovas feat. I haven't looked up all the rulings, but it's part of an an ongoing thread in the Cygnar forum.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...tica-Stormwall

[Seferon]

Neut has already mentioned using a raek to weapon lock a collasal and then blight field it.
The issue with breath stealer is the -defense isn't much help and all the colossal have decent ranged fire power so even when they move 2-3" a turn they can still hurt.
Breath stealer also isn't an upkeep.

Because Breath Stealer isn't a upkeep it tends to be a good thing at times. Your opponent can't get rid of it with the traditional debuff removal. Besides, what would you rather have? A colossal charging into something and wrecking face, or a colossal just sitting there shooting once or twice a turn. I'd rather have my opponents colossals shooting rather then trumping up to one of my heavies swinging at pow 20 ish.

[Episkopos]

Do we have any Caster's that can't easily deal with a colossal?

pLylyth can debuff and focus her entire army on it very efficiently.
elylyth can Nickel and Dime it over the course of several turns.
pVayl has Incite and scrap it.
EVayl can take off its buffs and scrap it or assassinate the enemy caster through it.
pThagrosh can Throw Carnivean at it and revover his losses after its dead.
eThagrosh should be able to swarm it to death.
Ryhas can at least jump over it and take a stealthed Sorceress on Hellion to shut down its guns.
Saeryn can personally ignore the majority of the guns, base it with her army and recover some of the losses incurred.
Absylonia can use the weapon lock trick and Blight Field to lock it down and kill it at her leisure and hopefully recover all her losses incurred while doing so.
Bethayne can take 3 Sorceresses on Hellions for 3 points in her tier list if you have at least 1 unit of Hex Hunters. That's just a theory though, I haven't used her yet.

I don't know about Kallus, I've never had any interest in him or in Incubi.

[Lanz]

You're going to have to bring at least one list capable of dropping a Colossal.

This, in absolutely no way, breaks the game. It shakes up the meta. Which should happen every once in a while. What's the point in a game where the tactics stagnate and are never challenged?

Yes, you will need to consider facing a colossal when you build a list now. Yes, you'll have to bring models and combos that can crack one. There's nothing bad about this.

Also, losses to colossals/gargantuans on Vassal or any other environment means very little in the short term. Of course people are going to struggle against a new obstacle. It could be a few months before we start seeing 'colossal-killer' lists.

[Crate123]

While yes Stormwall will kick infantry butt, the others are not that bad tbh.
Conquest is NOT gonna stop a unit of banethralls or bane knights, it would need to roll 10's on the thralls and 11's on the knights.
None of the colossals will stop heavy infantry, ofcourse the question is whether they can do enough damage to it (I know ours cant but the troll champions with blood fury and maybe a few strength buffs will chew through them).
So yes the stormwall will kick *** (easily the best one so far IMO) but the others are not as bad and heavies will still do decent damage to them. Just remember to pack a naga nightlurker so you're attacking arm 19 and not 22.

Honestly I dont foresee a huge issue with these once people get some games against them.

[ikbuh]

One thing to note is it seems to be possible for a Colossal to shoot even after breaking a lock. While it loses its initial attacks, as long as it doesn't make a melee attack and has focus to spend it can still buy ranged attacks with its guns since they haven't fired. This is based off the ruling of Zerkovas feat. I haven't looked up all the rulings, but it's part of an an ongoing thread in the Cygnar forum.

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...tica-Stormwall

That would be true, except Abby has Blight Field, so it doesn't have an Focus.

[Lanz]

At the end of the day, if colossals cause a meta shift and something happens like pLylyth becoming a bigger deal due to Parasite, I would be glad that she'd have a niche in competitive play.

Do we have no answers for huge 'jacks and beasts? Not even remotely. Blackfrost Shard alone will make most of our beasts dole out scary damage on a colossal or gargantuan. Our warlocks who can buff damage can also get the job done, and any other models that enable increased offense become more valuable. Free charges from Hellions and Soldiers could see more prevalent use if that extra attack can mean the difference between a damaged colossal and a wreck marker.

[Archnomad]

At the end of the day, if colossals cause a meta shift and something happens like pLylyth becoming a bigger deal due to Parasite, I would that she'd have a niche in competitive play.

Do we have no answers for huge 'jacks and beasts? Not even remotely. Blackfrost Shard alone will make most of our beasts dole out scary damage on a colossal or gargantuan. Our warlocks who can buff damage can also get the job done, and any other models that enable increased offense become more valuable. Free charges from Hellions and Soldiers could see more prevalent use if that extra attack can mean the difference between a damaged colossal and a wreck marker.

My pThags has the BFS in it. I mean, they're there to make up for his lack of a MAT buff, but Harm and Draconic Blessing on a Scythean should go down a treat.

I don't think we can expect to one round them. I think we should be looking to kill them reliably with 2 heavies. They'd be kinda sucky if you could kill them easily with one.

[Seferon]

My pThags has the BFS in it. I mean, they're there to make up for his lack of a MAT buff, but Harm and Draconic Blessing on a Scythean should go down a treat.

I don't think we can expect to one round them. I think we should be looking to kill them reliably with 2 heavies. They'd be kinda sucky if you could kill them easily with one.

We have only 1 warlock that allows us to one activation a Stormwall and thats on completely average dice rolls with Parasite and Kiss on the target that the Carnivean. Even with the ability to one activation a Colossal, i'd still rather take two activations to do it. I personally don't like to taking the chance on one heavy doing the job and then sending my other heavy into a different target that isn't as important.

[SteakAndSpirits]

I've often overlooked the Carnivean as a secondary choice to include, based on its expensive 11 point cost -- Frequently, I feel like an Angel or a Scythean is a better choice, at two points cheaper, and a longer threat range. I think that the inclusion of Colossals may help justify more frequent inclusion of a Carnivean, for two reasons: First, Carniveans have the highest native P+S of all of our WBs. Secondly, spreading around Spiny Growth will do a lot to soften the ranged bombardment that most Colossals seem to be equipped to deliver.

A number of our WLs can bump its P+S into the 22+ range after factoring in the BFS, which should be sufficient to heavily damage if not destroy a Colossal.

Also, while I don't think that Colossals will end the world as we know it, I do feel like the deck is going to be shuffled. The dominance of high model count, weapon master spam is going to get checked. In Legion, I think that could steer things a bit in our favor, as overwhelming hordes of weapon masters (Especially high MAT weapon masters) has always been the match-up I'm the most concerned about.

-s&s

[griffon77]

I see colossals being and interesting change and making some units previously over looked more useful.

I always loved my archers but now this will make those combined range attacks play differently. Two power 21 combined range attacks may not kill the thing but it will allow me to put a few dings on it and catch its attention. multiple units could do quite a bit to one.. add in a sorceress on a Hellion to the mix and you could deal a lot of damage with little arrows.

[Juggernautie]

Interesting discussion. I'm a traitor. Left Legion in Mk1. Couple of items seems to be missing. The Stormwall is basically 2 Defenders and a Cyclone for Ranged. I don't think 1 Heavy will do it. The Stormwall will hurt the heavy on the way in. Cygnar will most likely take another Heavy, probably a Stormclad. So the Stormclad will then jump into the fight. The Stormwall or the Stormclad can scrap most any heavy, after 1 round of Stormwall shooting. The Stormwall can also put out pods to block charge lanes. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out now.

[Venom321]

I think your being a little paranoid. They're gonna be popular at first of course. But i don't see them stopping infantry machine. I think the reason privateer kept their armor average with their faction is to make it so where troops can still kill them. granted they have high potential to kill low arm infantry so does any random heavy with an aoe. Theyre still mass points and remember they have to be in their field of fire. so if you troop heavy one side its gonna have to turn to get both guns able to fire in that direction leaving its backside open to the other and your jacks presumably. any decent heavy will be able to do significant damage enough to slow/stop a colossal.

[KhisanthMagus]

I don't see Legion really having a problem with Colossals. We have enough hard hitting heavies that we can tear them down with effort. Its factions like Ret who are hosed, as they mostly rely on things like Sentinels to deal with the truly heavy targets, and the stormwall is going to make that almost impossible.

[Kalaris]

Eh I feel like in this equation, we're paper, and they've just buffed rock so it beats scissors much more squarely now. (meaning less people will take Scissors, and take moar rock)

I LOVE when I see low model count across the table when I'm playing legion, cause unless Its cryx or Circle, guess what, I'm probably faster and have larger threat ranges, so your big super model ? yeah.... let me go around it and rip its support out from underneath it.

not looking forward to the New environment with Khador though =/

[SageofLodoss]

I played against Conquest twice this weekend.

First game I didn't even know it was coming out, so my list was hardly built with Colossals in mind. eVayl tier 4 with Angelius, Scythean, and Seraph + other stuff. One Scythean, unbuffed, took down the right side of Conquest, and I rolled pretty average on both initials, Chain Attack, and 3 bought attacks. I feel like if the Angelius and Blackfrost Shard had joined in on the fun, I could have scrapped Conquest in one turn. As it was, I ended up with an opportunity to have Vayl feat through an Arc Noded Helion on Butcher, hitting him with Icy Grip, two boosted Oblits, ice cages him twice, Kissed him, then Angelius murdered him.

Second game was my and a Cryx player vs. Two Khador lists, with a Conquest in each. This one went more sour, but there were clear reasons not related to the Colossals performance. First, while he was able to block infantry (eGoreshade Banes list and I had some Swordsmen with pThags) with 6-8 covering fire templates per turn, my partner was actually under the mistaken impression that the covering fires were POW 10-12, and was too cautious with his Banes. Once he realized they were only POW 6's when even my Swordsmen started making it through with just a few losses, he pushed forward, but it was a little too late to make a huge difference. Second, the Khador player was rolling like a demon. I had a Carnivean with Spiny Growth take 5 damage from *blast damage* from one of the Conquest's main gun shots that drifted to him. He made the 'mistake' of forgetting to put focus on a Juggernaut during one of his assassination runs against eGoreshade (in which only the Juggernaut could get to Goreshade), but a good Ice Axe roll followed by Double 6's on his punch will still do the trick.

If the Cryx Player had been aware that his opponent actually needed 10's to kill his Thralls with the covering fire, and if the dice were more friendly to us (can't roll 7 on three dice to hit was the norm that game) and less friendly to him, I feel like we would have been right in there.

Battle Mechanics work well with it though; you definitely want a way to get around and kill those little buggers if you can't take out the colossal in one turn.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Eh I feel like in this equation, we're paper, and they've just buffed rock so it beats scissors much more squarely now. (meaning less people will take Scissors, and take moar rock)

Great analogy. Seems like the meta will shift away from the difficult, infantry spam lists and give us fewer, more expensive opposing models to concentrate fire into. Just so happens that concentration of force is a Legion specialty.

-s&s

[notsoevil]

Heh, the game is changing to Kill the Colossal instead of Kill the Caster.

[Defenstrator]

That would be true, except Abby has Blight Field, so it doesn't have an Focus.

We aren't talking about just Abby, we're talking about countering Colossals in general. So if a Ravagore with eLylyth locked the busted side of a Stormwall it's important to remember that once it shook you off it could still buy attacks with its guns. There are many Cygnar casters with which this is a very bad thing.

I do think that Abby looks very strong against Colossals. Blight afield is just brutal on a model about concentrating force.

[JosephKerr]

One nice thing about locking is that it removes covering fire from half the Colossal and it's secondary gun loses the D3 shots, meaning it gets the one (admittedly) huge shot but loses half of it's utility. Since they can't move and have fields of fire, taking one boosted POW 15 is certainly doable and does a lot to keep the Colossal from being a threat. Not a bad tactic to have. And I'd probably think a Carnivean is a better locker, given those POW 18 bites and (up to) ARM 20.

[PG_Saturated Phat]

This, in absolutely no way, breaks the game. It shakes up the meta. Which should happen every once in a while. What's the point in a game where the tactics stagnate and are never challenged?

one of the reasons why I enjoy the game Magic the Gathering is because they have perfected the art of shaking up the meta. granted that it is more difficult in WMH as none of the models cycle out, but if PP thinks these things through (which i'm sure they do) then the game will only get more varied and interesting. and if eventually PP makes a mistake (which it doesnt look like the colossi are) then they will have lots of feedback to rebalance in MKIII. and I am assuming they dont want to have to do that for a long while.

The long and short, colossi breed ingenuity in list crafting.

[Obeisance]

Can you imagine the outrage if sets/books/models cycled in and out with the same frequency as M:TG?

[lastspartacus]

Hordes can handle colossals much better than WM due to the fury mechanic, so I wouldn't be too worried. My arm24 Galleon has been killed almost half of the games I have played, and infantry have contributed to those deaths, certainly buff stripping tactics. I've come to the conclusion that colossals are a balanced and welcome addition to the game.

Note that here and from here on out, whenever I say 'colossals', that excludes stormwall. Hes an entirely different freak. I think when people say 'we can't field infantry vs colossals', what they really mean is 'we can't field infantry vs stormwall'.

[Kalaris]

I do think that Abby looks very strong against Colossals. Blight afield is just brutal on a model about concentrating force.

Completely agree!

I've done the blight field, raek, and playing god, trick to any big important jack I don't feel like dealing with, Ol' Rowdy, for example, locking it down with 4 points of models, and 2points of fury (blight field) and it can stay there for the rest of the game as far as I'm concerned.

The BONUS is that when it comes to colossals, you're not tying up 9-11 points, with 4(and some fury) you're tying up 19+ with 4, and that makes abby a strong contender out of the gate for colossals, (with the noteable exception of purification casters, who can dispel playing god.

[Crate123]

Completely agree!

I've done the blight field, raek, and playing god, trick to any big important jack I don't feel like dealing with, Ol' Rowdy, for example, locking it down with 4 points of models, and 2points of fury (blight field) and it can stay there for the rest of the game as far as I'm concerned.

The BONUS is that when it comes to colossals, you're not tying up 9-11 points, with 4(and some fury) you're tying up 19+ with 4, and that makes abby a strong contender out of the gate for colossals, (with the noteable exception of purification casters, who can dispel playing god.

Purification doesnt help. An open fist is not a requirement of maintaining a weapon lock, its the requirement of starting one.
I can not find a ruling on it atm though.

[Lanz]

Can you imagine the outrage if sets/books/models cycled in and out with the same frequency as M:TG?

It would be super-lame. At the same time, though, M:TG has never had an edition change, and while older cards are cycled out of official events, they can still be used and still be mostly balanced (outside of the netdecking level anyways). An edition change, like Mk1 to Mk2 fills the role of what cycling does in M:TG

[Kalaris]

Purification doesnt help. An open fist is not a requirement of maintaining a weapon lock, its the requirement of starting one.
I can not find a ruling on it atm though.

well the colossal will easily break the lock each turn, which means you need to rengage it.

[ikbuh]

well the colossal will easily break the lock each turn, which means you need to rengage it.

I think 4 fury and a 4 point model is a fair trade to shut off a 19+ point model. The best part is that you're eating even more of their resources! You blight field, playing god, Raek lock the Colossal. The Colossal easily breaks out as it's only action, then their Caster dispels playing god. Your turn rolls around. You cast Blight Field and Playing god. Raek Locks Colossal. Repeat. Yes, you only lock one side of the Colossal, but I'm fairly certain you come out on top there. =P

MTG had a Psuedo Edition change when M10 first came out. Certain rules straight up changed or were removed. The biggest ones being no more Mana Burn and Combat Damage not using the stack. Regardless, if models cycled out, that would be stupid xD

[PG_Saturated Phat]

It would be super-lame. At the same time, though, M:TG has never had an edition change, and while older cards are cycled out of official events, they can still be used and still be mostly balanced (outside of the netdecking level anyways). An edition change, like Mk1 to Mk2 fills the role of what cycling does in M:TG

thats exactly what i'm saying. Of course i'm not suggesting to cycle books like blocks in MTG T2, but the way MTG handles shaking up their meta frequently is (usually) very well done. and I personally want each cycle of WMH expansions to brush free the fuzzy teeth of the current meta. I think that this can be done without making any of the older tactics useless, its just adding more strategies into the bag of tricks available for deck building. It would be disappointing if the meta did not have an ebb and flow to it. and I think the option of having the MK cycle is an excellent contingency plan for models that were nerfed from fear, or if PP somehow stuffed up the balance something fierce. MKIII, shouldent come out until it needs to.

EDIT: I found this quote in an article relating to the filters on the internet steering us away from sites tagged contrary to what we have been identified as affiliating with. "Unanticipated encounters, involving unfamiliar and even irritating topics and points of view, are central to democracy and to freedom itself." - Cass Sunstein, Head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs for the US senate.

now apply this to our game. If there were no dramatic changes to the meta, if every change were tiny and incremental then, given time, this game would stagnate.

[lastspartacus]

Did Absylonia just become a top tourny caster? I guess her beast tier discount wont work on archangel, but barring an edit to her feat she is the ruling champ when it comes to running and combating huge based monsters.

[Kalaris]

I think 4 fury and a 4 point model is a fair trade to shut off a 19+ point model. The best part is that you're eating even more of their resources! You blight field, playing god, Raek lock the Colossal. The Colossal easily breaks out as it's only action, then their Caster dispels playing god. Your turn rolls around. You cast Blight Field and Playing god. Raek Locks Colossal. Repeat. Yes, you only lock one side of the Colossal, but I'm fairly certain you come out on top there. =P

Most notebly the RNG on playing god is very short, so you'd have to keep abby closer to the action. it CAN be done, its just not the automatic I win button.

[katadder]

well as I said before if the Raek is behind the colossal then its probably in for a whole lot of hurt from the caster who's hiding behind the colossal plus any jack kept nearby for that purpose. kill the raek, no longer a need to break a lock.