Colossals: End of Days?

[ikbuh]

Sounds like a great idea for a set up. Lock it with the juicy Raek Target and float a pair of Angels on either flank. Hell, Abby can potentially do a fair amount of damage herself. It would be a fun little gambit depending on the whole of the circumstance. Her feat heals her first, which should never be forgotten. One of my first games with Abby (ever, actually) ended with a similar situation. Long story short, I ate an attack, feated and activated blender mode.

[Blaque]

I don't think it will be as big of a deal as you would think. The same thing was said about Battle Engines when they first came out. People are just gonna make them insanely high armor and then you have to put a ton of resources into it to deal with it. It didn't turn out to be nearly as big of a deal as several people had thought.

Not quite. This is what people thought battle engines were going to be before we had the rules on them. The worry was they would require battle engines to kill them. The issue with colossals appears, for a lot of folks, to be that with the rules we do know they might be too hard to kill and too good at slaughtering infantry for some. I feel the Stormwall's main issue is that Haley exists more than the Stormwall itself, personally.

Sure, this is a much more extreme degree because of the amount of damage boxes but think about it. Ok, my opponent buffs the hell out of a Colossal and makes it armor 24 to 27. Alright, thats cool. Now look at every faction in that game and see how many of them have access to spell debuffs/ways to get rid of spells. Just about every faction in the game has the ability to get rid of buffs and the ones that don't typically have a way to make they're models hit so hard that 2 heavies could take them out fairly easily. The best thing about this is that a majority of list being played in tournaments are these lists that have ways to get rid of buffs.

Circle and Legion actually don't have a lot. Besides Thrullgs, which don't live to get to most htings, Circle has Bloodweavers (who don't live to get there either) and Legion has Vayl2 (who is great against them). Caster-independent damage buffs tendt o also cripple the army in Circle or be character-restricted for Legion.

Legion: Naga ((when it comes out)), eVayl, pVayl ((feat + Incite + 2 Heavies should bring a clossal down enough that you can just back up and kill it next turn with one heavy.))
Circle: Pureblood + Whatever else i don't know of off the top of my head.
Trolls: They have the ability to buff they're heavies to huge pow and have access to Purification on one warlock, and then i think one of their warlocks has a mini one on their weapon or something. Maybe its a animus.
Skorne: Ummm i don't remember anything off the top of my head, but i think they have the ability to get pow 22 or 23 Bronzebacks.
Menoth: Purification on two warcasters, Choir, A jack that can get rid of Buffs, Access to Eryiss ((spelling?))
Khador: Access to Eryiss if i remember correctly.
Crygnar: Again, access to Eryiss.
Cygnar: If stormwall is armor 23 pDenny can bring it down to armor 16 with Parasite, Feat, and Banethrall. Dice minus 5 on a charge. Yeah, a couple of Banes and a Nightmare or some other heavy can deal with a buffed colossal.

Should be noted that the Circle and Legion sources of Wraithbane themselves don't kill colossals. The Circle one is actually hard to kill heavies without other tools like Kaya2 or Mohsar helping. Not saying impossible, but I do feel you underestimate the durability of these things sometimes and what you trade to just negate Arcane Shields.

Left out Minions and Mercs just because they really don't have anything that can do to much to a buff colossal.

Legions more or less are hosed v. colossals, I feel. They can't kill them reliably and have issues living to get them killed.

Something else to point out, who is to say that 50 points is going to be the normal point level to play when Colossals are all out for both sides. Maybe we will end up going to 75 points which in that case gives all factions access to more resources to deal with these Colossals.

Because nothing seems to imply there's any reason to go to 75pts. They run in 50, events tend to be 50, and you can build lists to take them out at 50. And playing larger games doens't fix anything anyhow, since it allows for more of the things to make colossals harder to kill.

And stuff.

[DrakkenBlut]

I'd say Legion is a bit lacking in the sense we have a bit less tools to kill a collossal. However, Legion with its speed and ranged options is the best faction to go AROUND the collossal, killing off support and getting to the caster. When you look at the big picture, we still have the best deal, even before our own Gargantuan comes out.

It's still a little fuzzy, I mean, no definitive lists with Collossi are established.

[Indy]

Lylyth1 certainly looks to be a good counter to the colossals. Parasit is great for killing, Eruption of Spines off thwt huge base inot the support stuff hiding behind it will be fun, and Bad Blood makes the Mountain King at the very least cry rivers of sweet, salty tears....

[DrakkenBlut]

Oh, yes. Bad Blood finally has a use! It took only since the beginning of the game... well, of Hordes.

[Beckman]

It just hit me... The Throne is worthless now. You cannot stand up to a Collossal with the Throne eating up pts in an army. The only exception may be a Rhyas list, where on the feat turn the Throne could attack the Collossal and get slingshot a whole lot more.

I wonder if it's the same with other BEs?

The Throne is totally fine.. every model in your list doesn't have to be a Colossal Killer... Now it might be that when the Colossals come out that it's better to take an Archangel than 2x Thrones... But I hardly think that's a problem with the Throne.

[Cromusz]

Haha, that would be hilarious to drop your army in behind the Colossus if the caster is hiding back there. It should be easier to place the throne B2B with the Colossus as well.

[Lanz]

Now that I think about about it, it will be glorious to have the BFS put kiss on a colossal then scrap it with eThagrosh and turn it into an ash cloud.

[DrakkenBlut]

The Throne is not completely fine. It eats up 9 pts that are better spent on a Scythean if there's a Collossal on the other side of the board, and at 35 pts you need every heavy hitter. At 50 you still cannot relax, because there is room for 2 Collossi on the other side. You could take a Throne at 75 pts, perhaps not even then.

Cavalry BEs cannot hurt a Collossal, that goes for Striders, Fulcrum and the Menoth engine too, Skorne sucks anyway... our BE is useless agains a Collossal, all that is left is Wraith Engine, well, it can reach a Collossal first, lower its ARM so it does help, and if it ate a soul or two, it may take just another heavy to take the big thing down. Funny, Wraith Engines used to suck.

What list with a Throne AND at least two heavy hitters AND support can you come up with at 35? I cannot. Throne isn't worth it anymore, except maybe with Rhyas.

Edit: Actually, Striders and Fulcrum could be useful to get rid of support around the Collosal, thanks to Electro Leap. Are they worth 9pts? I don't know.

Another edit: the Vessel is even better since it can boost a lot better than those two, and has a better reach. I still don't think it's worth 9pta against a Collossal.

[rivenwyrm]

Honestly, the mere threat of crippling grasp on a colossal is pretty likely to keep them from seeing competitive play in most factions unless they're coming with a caster/unit who can drop enemy upkeeps. At least, that's my expectation.

[Roadhouse]

Honestly, the mere threat of crippling grasp on a colossal is pretty likely to keep them from seeing competitive play in most factions unless they're coming with a caster/unit who can drop enemy upkeeps. At least, that's my expectation.

This would be true, if they didn't all have such great shooting "Oh no, my Storm Wall can only walk 3 inches and shoot all its guns". If the MK, which is totally hosed by Crippling Grasp, is the norm and not the exception for Gargantuans, then we won't see them anyway.

Legion is far from hosed in the colossal killing department. You shouldn't expect to kill one with a single heavy, they would suck if you could. Most Legion lists feature at least 3 heavies and as many as 5 is not unheard of. We also have several selections which excel at killing models that like to hide in the back field, like Mekaniks and Jr: Striders, Deathstalkers, Raptors, Annyssa, and Totem Hunter. The vast majority of my lists and the lists I've seen on here include the models necessary to deal with colossals and their support, there is no reason for anyone who plays Legion to sing doom at the sight of a colossal.

[SageofLodoss]

The Throne is not completely fine.

It is completely fine. The Throne is an anti-infantry toolbox than can occasionally assist a heavy in taking down enemy lights and heavies. Introduction of Colossals/Gargantuans doesn't change its intended role in the slightest.

It eats up 9 pts that are better spent on a Scythean if there's a Collossal on the other side of the board

But not if there are a bunch of single wound infantry that can spread out on the other side of the board. And you'll already have Scytheans or Angelius or whatever in your list *with* the Throne if you use it, it doesn't exist ina vacuum.

and at 35 pts you need every heavy hitter. At 50 you still cannot relax, because there is room for 2 Collossi on the other side. You could take a Throne at 75 pts, perhaps not even then.

How many times do we have to point out that all you need to scrap a colossal are two heavies. Unbuffed. They're buffing their colossal? Buff your beasts. If it took 18-19 points worth of your beasts to take it down, well, guess what, you took down the same number of points of your opponent's army.

You do NOT have to prepare to take down colossals. You need to be able to damage armor. That is it! Take all of your previous plans for taking on Khador, alter your battle approach to accomodate the fact that you might be taking shots on the way up and that you need to bring two heavies to bear on one target instead of spreading them out after multiple ones, and you're already on the right track.

our BE is useless agains a Collossal

Holy crap! It's not the ******* point of our BE!

What list with a Throne AND at least two heavy hitters AND support can you come up with at 35? I cannot. Throne isn't worth it anymore, except maybe with Rhyas.

Scythean and Angelius + Throne = 21-22 points with most casters. You can either fill the other 13-14 points with Lessers/Infantry/Solos, or fit another Scythean/Angelius in there to hover around 30-31 points and take 4-5 points of lessers/solos, or even something like an min unit of Hex Hunters if you have 5 points left and want a group to flank of scenario areas. The former (2 heavies + throne) achieves what you're asking. The latter gives you *three* heavy hitters and allows the Throne the luxury of *being* part of the support along with your lessers/solos.

Edit: Actually, Striders and Fulcrum could be useful to get rid of support around the Collosal, thanks to Electro Leap. Are they worth 9pts? I don't know.

Personally don't think anyone should ever doubt the usefulness of the Strider. It's a rather effective model.

Another edit: the Vessel is even better since it can boost a lot better than those two, and has a better reach. I still don't think it's worth 9pta against a Collossal.

Let's spin this another way. What if you build lists with plenty of heavy hitters to take on colossals. You go to a Steamroller and you see a Khador player with Conquest and Beast 09 or whatever ready to go, so you drop your anti-Colossal list. Instead, he drops a list of Kayazy Assassins and Eliminators, throws out Iron Flesh and just coasts through scenario points.

You still need to build lists to take on multiple types of challenges you may encounter. Saying that something won't be worth 9 points against X isn't something you shouldn't worry about when A) You don't know when or if you'll face X and B) You have another list capable of taking on X ifyou do.

All you need to do against Colossals is take your previous existing anti-armor lists and tailor their playstyle with shooting survival, anti-AOE, and crowding up on one model instead of 2-3 in mind.

[rivenwyrm]

This would be true, if they didn't all have such great shooting "Oh no, my Storm Wall can only walk 3 inches and shoot all its guns". If the MK, which is totally hosed by Crippling Grasp, is the norm and not the exception for Gargantuans, then we won't see them anyway.

Yes, they have great guns, for sure. It is pretty evident that their guns are really their biggest selling point. However having that much of your armor lag that far behind puts huge pressure on the scenario. Coming primarily from a Khador background I know how hard it is to compete on scenario when 1 of my two jacks cannot really help hold them. It's definitely possible, but depending on the scenario it can be hideously difficult and requires you really get your opponent on their back foot quick. At 19pts it'll be even harder. pDenny doesn't necessarily see a ton of competitive play, but there are other debuffs which are pretty brutal. There are ways to get around these kinds of issues, definitely, but I think aside from Stormwall it's gonna take the community some time to come to grips with the capabilities and problems of Colossals.

[Havock]

Absolynia can simply blight field it and put the trollface on. Shove an Angel with Forced Evo into its face and laugh.

[rivenwyrm]

Personally I'm more afraid that Colossals and Gargantuans will be a bit too low on the power scale, than that they'll be impossible to deal with.

[Lanz]

The Throne is not completely fine. It eats up 9 pts that are better spent on a Scythean if there's a Collossal on the other side of the board, and at 35 pts you need every heavy hitter. At 50 you still cannot relax, because there is room for 2 Collossi on the other side. You could take a Throne at 75 pts, perhaps not even then.

Cavalry BEs cannot hurt a Collossal, that goes for Striders, Fulcrum and the Menoth engine too, Skorne sucks anyway... our BE is useless agains a Collossal, all that is left is Wraith Engine, well, it can reach a Collossal first, lower its ARM so it does help, and if it ate a soul or two, it may take just another heavy to take the big thing down. Funny, Wraith Engines used to suck.

What list with a Throne AND at least two heavy hitters AND support can you come up with at 35? I cannot. Throne isn't worth it anymore, except maybe with Rhyas.

Edit: Actually, Striders and Fulcrum could be useful to get rid of support around the Collosal, thanks to Electro Leap. Are they worth 9pts? I don't know.

Another edit: the Vessel is even better since it can boost a lot better than those two, and has a better reach. I still don't think it's worth 9pta against a Collossal.

Contrary to raving panic, you do not need to dedicate every single model in your entire list at every point range to killing colossals in order to kill colossals. So yes, there will be plenty of points left to take other things. The Throne included.

Rest assured, the arrival of colossals isn't going to make infantry-heavy factions suddenly cease to exist.

[DrakkenBlut]

Well, my message isn't getting through, I'll try one more time, then drop the subject.

Throne IS very good at what it does. Only uselless agains a Collossal. Two heavies+Throne is at least 27 pts, not 22 Proof: 9+9+9=27.(where did you learn math, SageofLodoss?) Support should consist of a mix from Seraph, Naga, BFS, Fury management solos,Succubus, Spell martyrs and some lessers for transfer and stuff. No way that fits in 35 pts.

We already have army builds that can deal with a Collossal (Absy- 'nuff said, eThag shredder spam- should run circles around it, eVayl, pLylyth idea, etc). It's just that none of those have room for a Throne.

And the alternative army comment is really spreading the discussion away from the main point. Yes, there are two armies you bring to a tourny. My point is that in an army that can deal with a Collossal there will be no Throne. Your backup army may contain a Throne, but that's not my point.

Throne does nothing against an army with a Collossal. all the targets the Throne does well against are behind the Collosal, and with its low SPD, it will go nowhere. Rhyas idea might help, but I really need to look deeper into that one to claim that it would work.

That's all.

[katadder]

he was doing the adding up including the warbeast points so take 6 or 5 off and you have his 21-22pts. as I never take a seraph thats 8pts saved for me out the 14 I probably have left. so I can add the BFS, a naga and both a forsaken and shepherd (or lose the shep if a 5pt caster)

so a sample list:
eVayl
-Angelius
-Angelius
-Naga
Throne
BFS
Forsaken
Shepherd

35pts, 2 heavies, 1 light, 1 Battle Engine, should do ok against infantry and colossals (bit of bouncing angelius with cycled refuge)

[Deacis]

Since the throne can operate outside a warlocks control, why not deploy him to the sides and let him flank to kill flanking infantry or support and not seek a direct confrontation with a colossal. After collecting some corpse tokens, damage buff and/or kiss from bfs, it should be warmed-up enough to contribute in help killing the big guy. Just theory, but it's a start.

[Crate123]

Throne + naga animus still does decent damage to a colossal especially if its lucky enough to already have a token or two.
Boosted 15 vs 19 is still 6-7 damage on average and you obviously dont use the throne on its own to kill a colllosal.
I think you are missing the point of the throne myself.
Im not afraid of the colossals (once the naga is out).

[SageofLodoss]

Throne IS very good at what it does. Only uselless agains a Collossal.

Which doesn't really mean much in a 2 list environment or an environment where Collosals are not going to be the standard.

Two heavies+Throne is at least 27 pts, not 22 Proof: 9+9+9=27.(where did you learn math, SageofLodoss?) Support should consist of a mix from Seraph, Naga, BFS, Fury management solos,Succubus, Spell martyrs and some lessers for transfer and stuff. No way that fits in 35 pts.

As Katadder said, I was including warbeast points from your prospective warlock. You arrived at the same pre-points destination as me (27), but not seeing how the warbeast points take you to 21-22 (aside from eThags and Beth) leads me to believe that you had forgotten about them for some reason. That gives you plenty of room.

We already have army builds that can deal with a Collossal (Absy- 'nuff said, eThag shredder spam- should run circles around it, eVayl, pLylyth idea, etc). It's just that none of those have room for a Throne.
And the alternative army comment is really spreading the discussion away from the main point. Yes, there are two armies you bring to a tourny. My point is that in an army that can deal with a Collossal there will be no Throne. Your backup army may contain a Throne, but that's not my point.

If this was the main point of your argument, your should have said so clearly instead of "It just hit me... The Throne is worthless now. You cannot stand up to a Collossal with the Throne eating up pts in an army." Saying this without any clarification makes it read: The Throne, as a model, is worthless after the Collosals release, because it can't stand up to a Collosal and you won't have the points to deal with one if you spent it on a Throne.

You made it sound like universal application of the model's worth based on its performance against Collosals.

Throne does nothing against an army with a Collossal. all the targets the Throne does well against are behind the Collosal

This has not been the practice. The theory of keeping a bunch of your stuff other than the caster and mechanics behind the Collosal, as opposed to in front, is what has allowed people to so easily wreck Collosals with little to no loss in return, as it allows the opponent to freely march heavies directly into combat with the colossal. Standard practice, IMO, will soon become to include some form of expendible infantry to block lanes to the Colossal in order to maximize the number of turns in which it gets to freely shoot and stay at full health. As a Colossal player, you have to play with the cautionary idea that if your opponent gets two heavies on it, it's probably gone.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Standard practice, IMO, will soon become to include some form of expendible infantry to block lanes to the Colossal in order to maximize the number of turns in which it gets to freely shoot and stay at full health. As a Colossal player, you have to play with the cautionary idea that if your opponent gets two heavies on it, it's probably gone.

I concur.

Each Colossal is first and foremost a ranged weapon platform, and only secondarily a melee beatstick. The incentive to place the Colossal up front and square in the center is minimal, when it can effectively blast away targets of opportunity at a distance, screened by less valuable models -- Ideally coordinating to scrap the only types of models that can threaten it.

-s&s

[ikbuh]

The more thoughts that go into a Colossal, the more I fail to see where Legion has any sort of problem. Colossal stays in front? Great, kill it with heavies. Colossal stands in the back? Great, ignore it and slam into the warcaster because they lack much to get in the way.

[Lanz]

Honestly, thrones are fine against colosals, they actually can play a significant role in taking one down. Spine burst off a colossal covers a huge area, and easily catches models behind one. What sort of models will be hanging out behind a colossal in close proximity? Anything trying to hide behind it and mechanics in particular.

[Neutralyze]

The more thoughts that go into a Colossal, the more I fail to see where Legion has any sort of problem. Colossal stays in front? Great, kill it with heavies. Colossal stands in the back? Great, ignore it and slam into the warcaster because they lack much to get in the way.

thats why they stand behind the colossals. have you played against one yet?

[repentia]

Fun thought, I know Colossasls are Warjacks, So I assume Gargantuans are beasts. Does that mean Vayl can rampager one and smack it with them beefy fists? :P Coz if u can boost hit to crit hoarfrost on a caster hiding behind 1 then rampager it that’s going to hurt (this is where people step in an tell me they have a magic rule of "NO, u cant effect me, don’t try."

Obviously 7 fury for 1 p+s 20ish is inefficient, but spite is beautiful thing. humour me.

[Roadhouse]

Fun thought, I know Colossasls are Warjacks, So I assume Gargantuans are beasts. Does that mean Vayl can rampager one and smack it with them beefy fists? :P Coz if u can boost hit to crit hoarfrost on a caster hiding behind 1 then rampager it that’s going to hurt (this is where people step in an tell me they have a magic rule of "NO, u cant effect me, don’t try."

Obviously 7 fury for 1 p+s 20ish is inefficient, but spite is beautiful thing. humour me.

No movement outside of its ordinary advance.

[Crate123]

You also cant take control of them at all so no rampager.

[Roadhouse]

You also cant take control of them at all so no rampager.

Double true

[repentia]

magic rule, i knew it ah well, debuff it an hit it with 2 blessed pumped scytheans call it quits

[SteakAndSpirits]

People would be rage quitting in droves if Vayl could Rampager people's Gargantuans. The thought of a heavy warbeast wandering off to a far corner of the map is petrifying enough. Executing the same on an 18+ point model would be broken.

-s&s

[DrakkenBlut]

Anti Collossal tactica idea:

Take Raptors, deploy your main force on one side of the table, Raptors on the other. Collossal naturally goes against the main force. Raptors therefore end up in its back arc and plink away at support/caster. With Anyssa, they pose a credible assassination threat.

Can other armies do this? Not really, we have the only ranged cavalry so far. Maybe Circle.

Can you substitute Striders for Raptors? Striders have more shots, but die easily, are not a CC threat, and aren't as fast. Depends on the army.

[katadder]

also raptors are good to go against gargantuans. poisoned bows ftw

[Defenstrator]

Only with Lylyth. Parasite can pull their armour into damagable range, but other wise POW 10 with an additional die is just going to do a couple of points on average.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Black Frost Shard will be able to provide +2 damage pretty consistently. If all 5 shots are hitting and damaging, that's 10 extra points of damage. Still, that's only like... 20% of the damage track.

Ice Cage + Blight Field might be a nice way to handle them.

-s&s

[Earthcrosser599]

What will Ice Cages do to them? They're already very low DEF.

[DrakkenBlut]

Point was, the Raptors are a threat to the army behind the Collossal. Yes, they can hurt the Collossal itself, but that's secondary.

[DrakkenBlut]

On the "2 heavies kill a Collossal" tactics: Both of them must be able to charge the Collossal in the same turn. This requires some movement assistance to at least one of those two. While Circle has some of that in their Warlocks, Legion simply must take a Seraph.

Skorne and Trollbloods seem boned in that regard, but they have access to heavies that can kill a collossal in one activation.

Edit: Maybe Cavalry+Heavy is a more rational approach? Can anybody here spit out some numbers in that regard?

[SteakAndSpirits]

What will Ice Cages do to them? They're already very low DEF.

Exactly. So the liklihood of landing all three cages on them is very high. They'd need to be forced to shake that stationary effect. Which is the cue for Blightfield, which denies them the ability to be forced.

Or did I overlook a Collossal quality that makes them immune to Stationary effects?

-s&s

[blackleagionair]

i played just a game the other day and with my khador i killed a colossal and didnt have one to take it out .