A Minion Players concern. Humbly request a red response

[Scottl1]

It's fine to suggest to a gator player with upkeep problems , oh you could use a thrullg to handle upkeeps. Its still within the same contract to which the player plays. To say, oh you should just use pigs because you can't break high armor is somewhat rude. The same can hold true for mercs, although they are a little bit more forgiving in the model choices.

Again, the point is to address the problem within a certain element of the faction. Yes pigs can handle higher armor, that is not the issue and always the fixer to the problem.

Again that is the same thing unless a person owns a limited amount of a faction. The majority of players may own a 35 pt list maybe.. Telling them to buy a new caster and 3-5 things for a new list is the same thing. When every squad I buy for cryx is 50 plus with UA it really becomes the same thing if you told me to buy 2-3 new units to play something different. It's a lot of money either way you slice it. It's not just a minion issue.

Sure the person could use the stuff they already had to make a subpar list but what then have I solved? I'll still have to fork out more money for the squad, uas, solos, and extras. Yes I have extra mcthralls, banes etc since solos can make more. That's the burden you bear when you pick a faction. You don't pick something then get upset. My main gripe with this thread isn't thornfall/gator deficiencies its with the players complaining about things that were well known facts about the faction before going in and disregarding people's opinions for not playing minions since it's not what they want to hear.

[Scottl1]

Anyone care to talk about the bogus league rules this season? Gators and Pigs ARE separate factions. Are we to play Calaban and only Calaban against anyone who has the option of bringing a colossal to not have a bad match up?
Also the issue of the badges, we can only get one of the three...

That however I can agree sucks hard.

[PG_machine007]

Again that is the same thing unless a person owns a limited amount of a faction. The majority of players may own a 35 pt list maybe.. Telling them to buy a new caster and 3-5 things for a new list is the same thing. When every squad I buy for cryx is 50 plus with UA it really becomes the same thing if you told me to buy 2-3 new units to play something different. It's a lot of money either way you slice it. It's not just a minion issue.

Sure the person could use the stuff they already had to make a subpar list but what then have I solved? I'll still have to fork out more money for the squad, uas, solos, and extras. Yes I have extra mcthralls, banes etc since solos can make more. That's the burden you bear when you pick a faction. You don't pick something then get upset. My main gripe with this thread isn't thornfall/gator deficiencies its with the players complaining about things that were well known facts about the faction before going in and disregarding people's opinions for not playing minions since it's not what they want to hear.

Good point, but the difference is that when the OP started his faction, Colossals weren't around. Gators were able to much more easily able to go around jacks and heavy targets. A 2-hand throw, slam etc. could provide a lot more win solutions. However, a lot of the tactics are null and void with the release of huge based models, just as the OP said. It can be difficult to take out a heavy target with a crapton of support without being able to knock it down, move it, etc, especially when they just can't move it out of the way.

[LichLordVexing]

I have owned Farrow, but I don't like Gators so I never bought them. I'm with the OP on this one, though. If Minions players HAD to pick both factions, PP should have put a disclaimer on every single Minions package saying "You must purchase both Farrow and Gator armies if you want to play Minions. You are not allowed to play only one". To those of you that have actually played either Minions force, please ignore the following comment because you probably know what is going on in this thread. To the rest of you, I ask:

Are you people that dense?

Players can play just Farrow or just Gators. Mercs players don't need to buy EVERY contract to be competitive, so why should Minions players have to buy full lists for both pacts? Please use your head.

[Ssilmath]

The problem with using other factions as an example is that other factions have access to every tool in the box. Why is this so hard to get across?

Any other faction, if they have a weakness in their 35 point list, can buy one model/unit and shore up that weakness or change their playstyle. Every jack/beast/unit/solo is available to every caster.

With Minions, one side has the heavy hitting beasts and damage buffs coupled with versatile infantry. The other side has the movement shenanigan/lots of attacks beasts and infantry clearing infantry. There is no option to take a really heavy hitter like a War Hog with Gators, there is no opportunity to harness the raw infantry clearing power of a Gatorman Posse with Farrows. If you want a armor clearing list, you don't buy one model, you have to buy 35 points of caster, beasts and infantry to get that. There is no comparison to how a 'real faction' can modify their lists.

[Scottl1]

I have owned Farrow, but I don't like Gators so I never bought them. I'm with the OP on this one, though. If Minions players HAD to pick both factions, PP should have put a disclaimer on every single Minions package saying "You must purchase both Farrow and Gator armies if you want to play Minions. You are not allowed to play only one". To those of you that have actually played either Minions force, please ignore the following comment because you probably know what is going on in this thread. To the rest of you, I ask:

Are you people that dense?

Players can play just Farrow or just Gators. Mercs players don't need to buy EVERY contract to be competitive, so why should Minions players have to buy full lists for both pacts? Please use your head.

LOL Ok first off hordes is not as old as warmachine so seriously stop comparing it to mercs. The only wm faction even close to hordes is ret. Stop being daft and ignoring the other half your book just cause.. That is a self imposed limitation. I already presented how you buying models or me buying models is the same thing. The rest is in your head. Cygnar sometimes has that issue with mercs since they want to win with just forces of cygnar book.

[MetaphoricDragon]

I don't think anyone has pointed this out yet, but I believe the powers at be said that Minions wasn't getting a colossal because they thoguth that they could spend time otherwise buffing the faction, who knows what goodies your next book will have for you.

[Satyrwyld]

LOL Ok first off hordes is not as old as warmachine so seriously stop comparing it to mercs. The only wm faction even close to hordes is ret. Stop being daft and ignoring the other half your book just cause.. That is a self imposed limitation. I already presented how you buying models or me buying models is the same thing. The rest is in your head. Cygnar sometimes has that issue with mercs since they want to win with just forces of cygnar book.

If it is just in my head, and the limitations are self imposed, then you won't mind if I play Barnabas with a war hog and a unit of slaughterhousers backing up the gator posse and the swamp horror?

[Scottl1]

If it is just in my head, and the limitations are self imposed, then you won't mind if I play Barnabas with a war hog and a unit of slaughterhousers backing up the gator posse and the swamp horror?

You apparently are missing the point. You are playing minions NOT a pact. You are limiting yourself by not buying pigs. That is your limitation. Outside of this new league thing that was posted earlier has anyone else said you have to play one or the other. You will say but I don't want to to. Well guess what even if a normal faction we have to buy models to handle other stuff same as you even if they don't fit our taste.

Trolls are thrilled their best ranged unit is nyss. Cygnar isnt thrilled that trolls are their best tarpit and mercs are better in many of their army slots. Cryx best ranged list is denny with pirates you think thats just thrilling for us? I mean get over it. Getting old hearing these wet paper arguments. You want special treatment we get it. Between pigs and gators you will have more casters then ret does after gargantuans. You think thats fair?

We all have to buy models to build optimal lists to face our weakness. Sometimes even an entire new force to the point where we can almost run mercs. Most the arguements from minions players act like every player own EVERY model in their forces book to deal with EVERY possible scenario. That is not the case and they have to fork out money too not just minion players.

[Tyrfigr]

Ok from what I have read so far is that there are two issues being discussed in this thread. One is that gators have a hard time dealing with Colossals. The other is that people should play both pacts. Since I am still trying to get a decent 35pt Gator army assembled, I don't have the experience to talk about the first issue. I will, however, offer my view on buying both pacts.

As I have mentioned earlier, I am still getting the models for my single list gator army. When that is done and I feel comfortable enough to go to a tournament, I only have to buy a couple of more models to make a second list. Ok, that is not too much more money, I can do that. But wait, now you say that I wont be as competive unless I bring pigs as my second list. Hold on a sec, I just saved my hard earned money to finally build two 50 point armies and you are telling that it isn't good enough? I now have to drop another $500 minimum to build another 50 point list? Ok lets make this fair. For everyone who says bring both here is an exercise I would like for you to think about. Please bear in mind this is only an exercise and I am only trying to illustrate my point.

First give away ALL your models (this is so you dont have an extra source of income). Next I want you to come up with two competive 50 point lists. However, if there is one model that is one list, it cannot be included in the other. That should be fairly easy since Warmachine has been out for 10 years and has lots of options. The final step in this exercise is to now go out and buy all those model. This is basically what you are telling Minion players to do.

Please remember that this is just me trying to get my point across. I play gators because I think they look cool. Go to the new members section and read any post about some one new who is asking what faction they should play. The number one response is always "play with the models that you think look good. I really dont have any issues with pigs, I just like gators better. I like the power that pigs bring to the table and maybe one day, in a couple of years, I will own a Carver list.

[Scottl1]

Ok from what I have read so far is that there are two issues being discussed in this thread. One is that gators have a hard time dealing with Colossals. The other is that people should play both pacts. Since I am still trying to get a decent 35pt Gator army assembled, I don't have the experience to talk about the first issue. I will, however, offer my view on buying both pacts.

As I have mentioned earlier, I am still getting the models for my single list gator army. When that is done and I feel comfortable enough to go to a tournament, I only have to buy a couple of more models to make a second list. Ok, that is not too much more money, I can do that. But wait, now you say that I wont be as competive unless I bring pigs as my second list. Hold on a sec, I just saved my hard earned money to finally build two 50 point armies and you are telling that it isn't good enough? I now have to drop another $500 minimum to build another 50 point list? Ok lets make this fair. For everyone who says bring both here is an exercise I would like for you to think about. Please bear in mind this is only an exercise and I am only trying to illustrate my point.

First give away ALL your models (this is so you dont have an extra source of income). Next I want you to come up with two competive 50 point lists. However, if there is one model that is one list, it cannot be included in the other. That should be fairly easy since Warmachine has been out for 10 years and has lots of options. The final step in this exercise is to now go out and buy all those model. This is basically what you are telling Minion players to do.

Please remember that this is just me trying to get my point across. I play gators because I think they look cool. Go to the new members section and read any post about some one new who is asking what faction they should play. The number one response is always "play with the models that you think look good. I really dont have any issues with pigs, I just like gators better. I like the power that pigs bring to the table and maybe one day, in a couple of years, I will own a Carver list.

As to your exercise people are already doing that due to character restrictions. Those that don't are playing not competitive and can just ask their opponent to not use it vs them. I just posted my 2 35 pts for a local tourney and neither has the same models. I'm seriously done in this thread.

[Ssilmath]

Scottl1, why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around the idea that minions are two factions in one book? There is no interchange between them. Any upgrade for any faction can consist of a single model or unit that any caster can use to shore up weaknesses or enhance strengths. Gators and pigs cannot do that, they have one or the other. Gators cannot use the awesome armor busting power of a Warhog, Farrow cannot harness the infantry removal of a Posse. In a tournament, you have to choose one or the other and hope that you chose correctly. That was fine up until Colossals took away the main way for Gators to deal with heavy armor that cannot be moved.

It's as if Cygnar could choose to only shoot, or only melee. They were good at either, but there was no overlap between shooty and melee. Suddenly a model type comes out that can only be damaged in melee. Wouldn't the shooty Cygnar want to have a way of dealing with it? So people tell them to buy a melee Cygnar list, and hope that they are fighting this new model when they pick their tournament list. Since this new model type is going to be relatively common, they find themselves having to always choose the melee list over the shooty list, and the shooty list is no longer worth having anymore.

[Scottl1]

Scottl1, why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around the idea that minions are two factions in one book? There is no interchange between them. Any upgrade for any faction can consist of a single model or unit that any caster can use to shore up weaknesses or enhance strengths. Gators and pigs cannot do that, they have one or the other. Gators cannot use the awesome armor busting power of a Warhog, Farrow cannot harness the infantry removal of a Posse. In a tournament, you have to choose one or the other and hope that you chose correctly. That was fine up until Colossals took away the main way for Gators to deal with heavy armor that cannot be moved.

It's as if Cygnar could choose to only shoot, or only melee. They were good at either, but there was no overlap between shooty and melee. Suddenly a model type comes out that can only be damaged in melee. Wouldn't the shooty Cygnar want to have a way of dealing with it? So people tell them to buy a melee Cygnar list, and hope that they are fighting this new model when they pick their tournament list. Since this new model type is going to be relatively common, they find themselves having to always choose the melee list over the shooty list, and the shooty list is no longer worth having anymore.

Prob why its so hard for you to wrap your head around the fact that having the right thing, bought models, etc is NOT just a minion issue. Plus the fact that you completely ignore that 2 wrastlers can kill a colossal. Barnabus can keep in water till they get a charge. Calaban can parasite it and let your guys go to town. If they hit you back you can spiny growth your stuff. I already mentioned problems other factions have but again was ignored becuse it didnt apply to gators. It's clear you guys just want special treatment. I am done responding on this thread because not one new argument has come out of you guys.

You say others have options but NOT everyone does because they have to have the money to buy em just like people need moeny to buy colossals but of course in your argument is EVERyone posses them and brings them.

[Tyrfigr]

As to your exercise people are already doing that due to character restrictions. Those that don't are playing not competitive and can just ask their opponent to not use it vs them. I just posted my 2 35 pts for a local tourney and neither has the same models. I'm seriously done in this thread.

Ok so I can't have Wrong Eye and Snapjaw in both of my lists, I can handle that, but I am not just talking about character restrictions. I am talking about model restrictions on top of that. With the two 35 pt lists I am going to try and throw another quick example out there.

Ok lets say I build two 35 point lists. I have Carver and I have Calaban. I have a War Hog with Carver and a Wrassler with Calaban. Now lets say the two casters you have are pDenny and pSkarre. In one list you have a Seether and the other list you have a Slayer. If one day you want to change up your lists and put the Slayer in the other list, you can. I however can never mix up my lists.

Asking someone to bring a pig list and a gator list is like asking someone to bring a Cygnar list and a Khador list.

I am sorry if you are getting upset, please do not take this is a personal attack against you as this is not my intent. I am just trying to discuss the other side of the coin. Like I said I would LIKE to bring the pigs, but I shouldn't HAVE to.

[Ssilmath]

Dude...Every faction has problems, but they also have ways of dealing with those problems with models that fit easily into their current armies. Neither gators nor pigs have that option. It is either/or. In the current league, they don't even have the options you are throwing at them.

But let's use your example further. Let's use Cryx this time. Let's say, Asphyxious with Banes and all melee jacks. It's not optimum, and feel free to strawman that point, but let's continue. You decide you want to add solo that supports jacks and kills things. Warwitch Siren is all it takes, and if you decide to get a new caster then she can be used by them as well.

Now, let's say you play Farrow, and want a solo that can take out designated targets and remove support. Well, Gudrun could work, but he is more of an infantry clearer. But the Totem hunter, he would be awesome for the job. Except nope, he only works for Gators. Sorry, guess you don't get an option that is in your book. But if you want to shell out a few hundred dollars, you can get a completely different type of army and use the Totem Hunter in it! It's like starting a new faction! The only difference is, you can take both lists to a tournament. Hope you pick the right list, cause if they bring out that shiny, new and powerful model one of your lists is almost useless! Fun times to be had by all.

[Zombied00d]

Gators won't get the Rage animus any time soon. Which makes it a bit rough fighting colossals, but them's the brakes.

Any fix for gators that makes them good/viable against colossal models will, strangely enough, make them AMAZING against non-colossal models.

But hey pigs fold up against shooting and incorporeal, so yeah.

Folks the truth is Minions ain't competitive. And they're unlikely to be competitive any time soon. Sure they've got their moments in microcosms, but compared to the whole, they cannot consistently get it done. And you can say "oh well, they're the new army on the block" but in order to catch up they need to effectively double the releases of every other faction in Hordes (for parity with new releases,) and then exceed that even further just to catch up. Which, quite frankly, is unlikely to happen.

[FearLord]

Your kind of straw manning me at this point. Your latching on to any part of my post you feel will invalidate my concerns. Not sure what i can say that will make you see things at least partially from our point of view . In fact I'm not sure why everyone is so vehemently against minions getting a bit of a boost. Are they really tearing up everyones meta so bad that you must insist on us not getting more tools? Not trying to be snarky or anything but I'm confused as to what this issue is here.

Here's the real kicker, Chum - I play Minions as well.

I can only go on the contents of your posts as to the validity of your argument, because a) I can't read minds, and b) There is not proof beyond theory machine that there is a problem here in the first place.

As a Minions player, you will know doubt remember the theory machine to led to such wild claims as "Flying Gators will eat your casters and there's nothing that can be done to stop it"... when actually, as you've pointed out Minions aren't exactly tearing up the scene. I certainly don't object to Minions getting new things, but I reject the notion that both pacts or every caster should be able to take on everything in the game with equal success - new models mean a change of tactics. This includes casters going up or down in usefulness...

[Satyrwyld]

A little perspective here: I play all of Cryx. I play all of Legion. These factions as a whole appeal to me aesthetically, and I enjoy the general playstyle. As such, they are my competitive factions. I like the voodoo gator aesthetic, but I'm keenly aware it's not a competitive subfaction, so I play it for fun, and to put on a bad cajun accent and call people "soft, pink appetizer." I also enjoy the Baldurs, and so I have a bunch of rocks for Circle, but minimal interest in the rest of the faction. Despite this, I would argue that eBaldur's *tier list* is a more versatile subfaction than any single warlock in Blindwater armed with a general pact list.

To compare Minions to any other faction, you'd almost have to restrict yourself to commenting only on a "real" faction's tier lists, because that's functionally what minion casters get as their regular list building choices. At most, choose from between 3 heavies, 2 lights, 4 units, and a handful of solos, half of them characters. Furthermore, combos are limited, because half your choices only appear in one tier list. Oh, and there are no additional benefits for building tier unless you want to restrict yourself even further.

Now, considering (to pick an example I've already been thinking about using) eLylyth can take a gunline (bowline?) with an archangel front and center... pigs will get shot to pieces by striders and raptors before they can seriously threaten it, and assuming gators don't become a pincushion, they'll never catch Lylyth, doubly so if she's dancing around a huge base of doom. They have little hope of evicting the gargantuan from a control point before weaponmaster raptors and strider CRAs ensure a scenario win. If you think any gator caster can support his troops in this scenario without a decent player making him pay for facing raptors, I'll be happy to explain how I'd do it.

Now yes, this is a bad matchup, but that's the point. This is supposed to be one of the BEST matchups for gators, and they're now knocked down to the level of pigs, who are supposed to be struggling. All the Minion players are asking for in this thread is some reassurance that they'll get something to help them compensate when the addition of colossals / gargantuans hits.

[Kenlen]

For Minions to work like a faction, you need a new inclusive contract, one that straddles the middle ground between gators and farrow and allows you to take the majority of minion models. Right now, there are a number of minions that you cannot take in either pact. A minion player can't even use all his options, even if he plays both pacts.

Of course, minions are very new and probably not meant to be fully competetive yet. Mercs weren't for a long time, although we're getting there.

[Halfhoot]

Most of them won't be their card written armor... because if you put that many points into a model you want to protect it. The best way on something with that many boxes and that low defense is to beef up the armor. Thrullg really can't deal because any one of them will shoot him to pieces before he gets close.

I'm hoping undead bogtrogs will dish out some good hurting. Hopefully that'll do the trick. Maybe the Trog warlock will have some sort of damage buff as well.

I can't afford to buy an entire new set of warbeasts, units, and solos to play Pigs even if I did have much interest in them. Maybe baring Circle, at least in the real factions everything is at least a similar look and feel. Also even in a single faction I trend my two lists toward armor or defense, but I make sure to include a bit of both in case I choose poorly in my matchups... I don't bring a list that can't have at least something of an answer for what might be out there. Also don't forget divide and conquer. Praying you draw opponents that don't have a model type sounds like kinda crappy.

But again I think PP thought of this and the new Trog stuff will make us good to go so I'm not overly worried.

[Wishing]

In fact I'm not sure why everyone is so vehemently against minions getting a bit of a boost. Are they really tearing up everyones meta so bad that you must insist on us not getting more tools?

I personally don't see anyone here specifically being against gators getting a boost, and saying that would be a bad thing. The message of the OP was that playing gators (competitively) will be difficult to impossible from now on due to the arrival of colossals, and that gators therefore need to get new tools to mitigate this problem. The responses here haven't been insisting that gators must not get such tools - the responses have just been disagreeing that this is a necessity. The message I'm getting from the responses is "stop being so concerned about this, there is no big problem like you are saying there is". Which is of course easy to say for people that didn't have those concerns in the first place.

Personally I'm sympathetic to the fact that the game has changed and playing gators is now more difficult than it was before due to the presence of new problematic models. However, the game changes all the time, which is something all factions have to deal with to some extent. It is obvious to all that the minion pacts are always going to have vastly fewer options than any of the Hordes factions, so minion players should understand and accept that they are going to have less flexibility to deal with an evolving game than everyone else. However, new books will keep coming out with new minion options, so let's keep our fingers crossed that the next book will make life slightly easier for the small and limited armies out there.

[TheLoki]

I personally don't see anyone here specifically being against gators getting a boost, and saying that would be a bad thing. The message of the OP was that playing gators (competitively) will be difficult to impossible from now on due to the arrival of colossals, and that gators therefore need to get new tools to mitigate this problem. The responses here haven't been insisting that gators must not get such tools - the responses have just been disagreeing that this is a necessity. The message I'm getting from the responses is "stop being so concerned about this, there is no big problem like you are saying there is". Which is of course easy to say for people that didn't have those concerns in the first place.

Personally I'm sympathetic to the fact that the game has changed and playing gators is now more difficult than it was before due to the presence of new problematic models. However, the game changes all the time, which is something all factions have to deal with to some extent. It is obvious to all that the minion pacts are always going to have vastly fewer options than any of the Hordes factions, so minion players should understand and accept that they are going to have less flexibility to deal with an evolving game than everyone else. However, new books will keep coming out with new minion options, so let's keep our fingers crossed that the next book will make life slightly easier for the small and limited armies out there.

All very good points. This post people is the one of someone who took the time to read and understand what we are trying to say. He posted an opinion as a counterpoint to mine in a well thought out and constructive manner. I applaud you for this very well done post mate. You obviously understand the tone and idea of what I'm trying to get across whether or not you agree with it. What youve said are indeed my concerns, and my OP was a simple "anything in the pipeline to help out eventualy?"

[Charming]

A note on Calabans gun: as a blindwater player, make sure your opponent always faces his target directly after a charge. This can give you a much better chance for getting nice arc node/s. It's a very important rule many players get sloppy with, and if you don't enforce it you may well be lacking opportunities to arc parasite onto the Stormwall.

[Wishing]

All very good points. This post people is the one of someone who took the time to read and understand what we are trying to say. He posted an opinion as a counterpoint to mine in a well thought out and constructive manner. I applaud you for this very well done post mate. You obviously understand the tone and idea of what I'm trying to get across whether or not you agree with it. What youve said are indeed my concerns, and my OP was a simple "anything in the pipeline to help out eventualy?"

You're very kind, thanks! Regarding your thread intention, I wouldn't count on getting any hints about future releases from PP by asking for them. In all the time I've been reading this forum, I don't think I've ever seen a PP staffer reply with anything but cute evasion to a thread asking about what is going to happen in the future (and I've read a lot of threads like that). Best you can hope for is that the thread lets PP know that you would really like some gator help with unmoveable enemies, since they do often get credited with listening to their customer base.

[SillySod]

Hope you pick the right list, cause if they bring out that shiny, new and powerful model one of your lists is almost useless! Fun times to be had by all.

This sentiment keeps on being touted as if:
a) its true (honestly, too early to tell)
b) its a minion only problem

Most factions have a fairly limited range of options to help them deal with colossals and consequently alot of casters have just acquired some fairly chunky issues that arent trivial to resolve. For example two of the top three circle theme forces only allow constructs. Those lists are in trouble and potentially circle could lose a large chunk of power if immovable models become popular.... but most factions could probably cite similar examples, its not just a circle thing and its not just a minion thing.

[Taslon]

Scottl1, why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around the idea that minions are two factions in one book? There is no interchange between them. Any upgrade for any faction can consist of a single model or unit that any caster can use to shore up weaknesses or enhance strengths. Gators and pigs cannot do that, they have one or the other. Gators cannot use the awesome armor busting power of a Warhog, Farrow cannot harness the infantry removal of a Posse. In a tournament, you have to choose one or the other and hope that you chose correctly. That was fine up until Colossals took away the main way for Gators to deal with heavy armor that cannot be moved.

It's as if Cygnar could choose to only shoot, or only melee. They were good at either, but there was no overlap between shooty and melee. Suddenly a model type comes out that can only be damaged in melee. Wouldn't the shooty Cygnar want to have a way of dealing with it? So people tell them to buy a melee Cygnar list, and hope that they are fighting this new model when they pick their tournament list. Since this new model type is going to be relatively common, they find themselves having to always choose the melee list over the shooty list, and the shooty list is no longer worth having anymore.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that no one set of ten ish models can deal with everything in the game. What do you tell an Elylyth player when they lolbounce of your barnabas list? Your opponent spent 135$+ on his collosal. If you only have one 35pt list that cant deal with that is it there fault, or yours? I mean, gators as a faction can deal with collosal, if your choosing to divide the faction in two, but Minions are a faction, Not gators and pigs. Minions. You should have done your homework on your faction before investing in it.

I mean heck, if I invested into Dwarves, which by your terms is a "Faction" and Couldnt get through issues, Id have to invest into more Models for other contracts, or quit. Be happy that your to sub groups of models Pigs and Gators, are diverse enough to provide dramatic different playstyles, not complain that gators cant handle every problem on there lonesome

[PG_Devilsquid]

Something to also remember is that minions are 1) just over a year old in their current incarnation and 2) not a faction.

1) For coming out of the gate, the minions are very strong in their basic choices. Far better than mercs ever were when they started. While they don't have a lot of options, they do have solid ones. Would I love to see more options for my Farrow? Of course, but I know it'll take time.

2) Minions are not a faction, same with Mercs. While this means we get nifty things not constrained by 'faction' concept, it also means that we're the underdog. It doesn't mean that we're not competitive, just means that as Merc/Minions players, we have to play harder and smarter to make the tools we do have work in many many different situations. It's not a matter of "I don't have a unit to kill a colossal", but more a matter of "How do I use what I have to deal with colossals?"

I expect it to take some games in to wrap my head around dealing with colossals...just like dealing with the Avatar, the Behemoth, cavalry and battle engines took me some time to learn to play against with my Farrow.

[Ssilmath]

You bring up a very good point, SillySod. However, each faction does have access to all of the toys in their book. A Circle player with constructs has the option of taking a Warpwolf, or whatever other heavy killer they want in order to counter it. It may weaken the overall list, but they have access to that tool. Minions do not have that option. If another type of model were introduced that can only be charged by models with Pathfinder or Amphibious, Pigs would be the ones having difficulties that they could not overcome because they would lose half their list, while every other faction could find something in their book to include in a take all comers list that has pathfinder. Most do anyways.

[HoodooDoll]

Anyone else getting tired of the "Shoulda researched your faction" "Play a different faction" responses? If you don't have something constructive to add just keep lurking. The problem as best I can tell is... In a two list tourny environment Minions are pretty much forced to play their Farrow list since just the threat of a colossal is enough to warrant not using Gators as otherwise it will be a horrible match up. So your opponent, knowing you have to go pigs for fear of the colossal, is free to pick his best list to deal with Pigs. Just the threat of a Colossal is enough to shut down half of the Minion faction and that is the major complaint...

[Taslon]

About as tired of the whole " I should be able to minimally invest in my smaller faction and take all comers while you have to buy entire new models to optimize for yours."


This thread revolves around minion, specifically gator players feeling that within there contract try should be able to handle collosals. Which with Callahan they can on average dice using a spitter shot and a wrestler but I digress. Your faction is pigs and gators. You knew what models were out and how pullowfisted gators were to bein with. In truth you can make a gator vmcarver list for about te same amount of money as your friend dropped in his collosal.

[HoodooDoll]

The argument isn't I wanna play gators and only gators, as I said in my post. I play both Pigs and Gators, the problem is that it makes Pigs the only viable option we have because of a fear of colossals. We are pigeon holed into lists that have to deal with a Colossal. Yes there is always Calaban but then both lists would serve basically the same functions, cracking armor. I guess unless you play Minions it's hard to see where we are coming from.

Edit: And the league rules regarding Minions make me want to scream, but that's for another thread I guess.

[Maou_Mint]

Personally, I think Minions have the tools in both Gators and Pigs to deal with Colossals if necessary. What both factions seem to lack is some of the tricks and variety that invariably comes with having more models. So we'll hopefully see both groups branching out from their niches as more releases come out.

If I had to state what I'd personally like to see, it's more models like the Commodore Cannon in Minions, that is stuff that is specific to pacts and not shopping itself out to everyone. Seriously, where are the elite and most loyal troops of each of Thornwall and Blindwater? It seems to me that the non-pacted minions are by and large pickier about who they sell their services to than the troops who have sworn allegiance to certain sides...

On that note, why won't Gators warriors work for pigs and pig warriors for gators if both will work for Skorne, Everblight, etc... doesn't make a lot of sense that a skorne whip is that much scarrier/convincing than the threat of Arkadius' lab or Calaban's sacrificial stone.

As to the league, maybe it's an indication that Thornfall and BLindwater will soon be acknowledged as full factions and each get 7 of their own releases in the next book. ...I can dream.

[HellecticMojo]

About as tired of the whole " I should be able to minimally invest in my smaller faction and take all comers while you have to buy entire new models to optimize for yours."


This thread revolves around minion, specifically gator players feeling that within there contract try should be able to handle collosals. Which with Callahan they can on average dice using a spitter shot and a wrestler but I digress. Your faction is pigs and gators. You knew what models were out and how pullowfisted gators were to bein with. In truth you can make a gator vmcarver list for about te same amount of money as your friend dropped in his collosal.

It's hardly minimal investment. It's not like Mercs where there's a 4 star or highborn that allows us to take majority of the options exists for the Minions. When you choose a gator, you are stuck, I repeat, stuck with the limitations with the blind water. It's a legitimate concern. It's just bad for the game to have such an imbalance. If our faction is indeed Gator + pigs, then there should be a list that incorporates both, or better yet, just allow both pacts to have options they will need.

[embitteredsoul]

I said it elsewhere.. but I think the problems of cracking a colossal would be solved (or, at the very least, made a bit easier) if the minions could keep the Gorax they can currently obtain from the league. Primal is just a great animus that is perfect for either faction (pigs would be scary with it, gators just plain mean).

[PG_relasine]

Most of them won't be their card written armor... because if you put that many points into a model you want to protect it. The best way on something with that many boxes and that low defense is to beef up the armor. Thrullg really can't deal because any one of them will shoot him to pieces before he gets close.

You mean that between screening Gatormen, Swamp Pit, and Spiny Growth you can't get the Thrullg upfield?

[TheLoki]

Swamp pit doesnt work on thrullg. Only amphibious models can claim the no shooting. It has spell ward so you cant spiny growth it.

[PG_relasine]

Swamp pit doesnt work on thrullg. Only amphibious models can claim the no shooting. It has spell ward so you cant spiny growth it.

You can screen the Thrullg with Gatormen in a Swamp Pit. Spiny Growth is an animus and isn't denied by Spell Ward (unless your warlock is casting it).

[Taslon]

I said it elsewhere.. but I think the problems of cracking a colossal would be solved (or, at the very least, made a bit easier) if the minions could keep the Gorax they can currently obtain from the league. Primal is just a great animus that is perfect for either faction (pigs would be scary with it, gators just plain mean).

And again you have a caster with parasite an hex blast. Who against even the mighty conquest puts you at straight dice with a wrestler. Against others it's better, no your solution isnt barnabus but you have options for killing it

[TheLoki]

I know that >_<. Very tired and realized what I posted a few minutes after that. However alot easier said then done. The thrullg is a pretty terrible way to spend 3 points(unfortunately necessary) . That however is another argument completely. So far far from this thread we have been told to Hide our stuff in swamp pits(barnabus) While Calaban Parasites it. It happens in alot of arguments across alot of factions, the assumption that we have access to all our tool at once. Not to mention people are factoring in Blindwater lock spells but not any spells on the warcasters in question. Once things like polarity field get tossed around things get even worse.

[TheNoob]

And again you have a caster with parasite an hex blast. Who against even the mighty conquest puts you at straight dice with a wrestler. Against others it's better, no your solution isnt barnabus but you have options for killing it

ok, ppl need to stop saying that..... Calaban isnt the answer, unless the question you are asking is, which gator caster is gonna get crushed by a colossal the fastest?

Hex Blast and Parasite are RNG 8..... that means i have to get my caster within charge range of the slowest colossal( SPD 4 + 3 for charge plus auto-reach= 9). His ranged weapon Arc-node maker does NOT work unless your opponent if being extremely nice to you (as you cant change the facing your brand new Arc node).

So no, CALABAN is not the answer. It is why Calaban is often said to be the worst gator caster, bc he is an Arc Node and an errata away from being strong.