A Minion Players concern. Humbly request a red response

[Taslon]

I used them as an example for limited list structure and zero model overlap not for whatever power layed therin. However if you feel that is a bad example i will work on one that better gets my point across. As for the people talking about pigs that is not the problem here at all.

Normally when we discuss matchups we speak about things such as caster vs caster or Faction vs Faction correct? Well for the most part its the same for minions. Vs things like ELylyth we would reach for gators over pigs or vs things like most khador we would whip out pigs. Pretty standard fair for every faction to use your steamroller to your advantage vs a caster or a faction.

This however is not the case. Its a modeltype available across all the factions that is causing the disparity so the answer "use pigs" becomes invalid as by following that logic i should just sell my gators and always use pigs due to everyone having access to colossals.

Minions are such an oddity within the game i feel the need to try and convey my meaning thru the use of other factions but so far it has proven ineffective more then likely due to my own failings. Its such a unique problem that i'm not exactly sure how to explain it other then Play minions yourself for a year in the new enviroment and tell me how your gators fare against cygnar with a stormwall (quite possibly pigs worst matchup so reaching for them is a no go). However the stormwall in this same list makes gators a no go since the stormwall can not be handled. Now some people are going to say herp derp use calaban. This also does not solve the problem for quite a few reasons.

1. Calaban is pretty bad at what he does.
2. Calaban does not do ANYTHING for gators to facilitate their good matchups vs the shooting armies that eviscerate pigs so horribly. Calabans bad matchups are the same as the pigs. This requires Maelok or Barnabus to alleviate

To reiterate we take gators in our steamroller to cover a weakness that pigs do not (This is just good list building i think we can agree). Unfortunatly every faction now has a model that invalidates the gator side of the steamroller oft enough to cause us extreme worry.

Except that collosals and gargantuans outside of cygnar from what weve seen the stats for, arent dangerous. well mayeb galleon with Broadsides bart. other than that your gator list if you use barnabus, nullifies collosals as there are mobile ranged weapons platforms, and if they cannot make ranged attacks, and at mat 6, will spend all there focus boosting to hit your def 16 gatormen. Gators dont auto lose to Collosals. I encourage you, to borrow a friends book, and either tabletop or vassal and use collosals and try them, learn there weaknesses and strengths. Youll find that there not that good in melee, instead focusing on ranged combat so they can go in for the kill, as even 4 pow 20's one boosted, wont wipe everything off the board.

And to your earlier post, yes ive played both pacts since they were launched. I play them as a fun faction, not as my main, I grant, but I have in excess of 40 ish games with each pact. Playing this, I see why they went the way they did. at least in my opinion. With overlap, you have to balance models for every option available. so they would have had to balance pigs with aggression dial, untargettable by ranged attacks, warpath, all different sources of spells and effects from each side of the coin, whether pigs or gators. What this would have done, was make it so gators would be the dominant pact use, as its locks have all the tricks, and the warhog with maybe one animus bot wrastler would be brought. They split it, so they could tune each group individually, maintaining Identity, while being able to balance the uniqueness they want in each. I mean honestly, if gators could reliably and easily take out heavy targets, why play pigs, with all there bad matchups? while fluff or aesthetics might me a good reason for you, they want to appeal to the masses as well.

But again this is neither here nor there. even stuck in a divide and conquer format, using your 20 person example, if you play till undefeated, it should be a 5 round event. which means you could use pigs 3 times if needed, and gators twice. add in that gators can deal with collosals, its just a harder match up, as has been proven in here many times, and im sure youll be fine.

Finally to the personal attacks on my meta's skill, and to the comments about how uncivilized general chat is, both made here and in the minions forum ( yes as I play both, I read both) I have no interest to discuss further, as there appears to be no consensus to be reached. We have given you example after example of ideas on how to beat colossals, whether it be Play pigs, Use calaban, swarm with troops, make yourself untargetable to the one good offense Collosals have, and yet you keep dismissing us about theorymachine. Gators are not the worst off when it comes to colossal, they have tools to work through and beat them. In truth I more worry about your lack of interest in finding a way to get through it, instead relying on privateer to give you weapons geared towards them, instead of using what you have to defeat them

[absent]

Also one more before i retire, saying "i guess you just need to play minions to understand" RE: Cracking armor, to a merc player, is really silly. human Mercs have a dreadful time killing a d-warded avatar (or any super high armor target), even worse than minions, because we need to pump our resources off our caster to even attempt it with our jacks, the heaviest of them coming in at the same pow, with less attacks by 2, as your heavy beast. Mercs have gotten some stuff to address the issue, but the issue existed and still exists. Mercs have a lot of tools in the tool box, and i know gators don't have nearly as many, but i've been in that situation where i have no possible way to damage a model due to it's armor stat. Many times. I've still been as succesful as anyone i know at the tournaments i've attended, sometimes by taking my dwarfs to crack armor the same way you'd take Dr A or BMMD to crack armor. Do what you have to do.

I still think gators are cool and it'd be nice if they could occasionally kill an arm 22 warjack or colossal. PP should make that happen =)

[TheLoki]

If i offended you I apologize. I realize now that it came off alot more snarky then i intended. As a counterpoint to you this time around, mercs just got a ps 21 model . Bet that helps with the armor cracking a bit lol.

[Taslon]

I can guarantee I am putting stormwall in every one of my cygnar lists for tourneys. he brings the combination firepower of 2 defenders and a cyclone, plus the melee power of a stormclad for only 18pts. add in the fact he also boosts stormcallers and hes going to be cygnars go to jack in majority of lists.
now add the fact that cygnar are a horrible list for pigs to fight and normally you go to gators then what do you do as gators cant take down stormwall

Then we add in that with barnabus, those guns do nothing all game, and you can protect a thrullg upfield and suddenly it starts feeling like a wasted 19 points. also just for our viewers in the minions forums, lets add in the fun Page five comment they want so badly.

[TheLoki]

Then we add in that with barnabus, those guns do nothing all game, and you can protect a thrullg upfield and suddenly it starts feeling like a wasted 19 points. also just for our viewers in the minions forums, lets add in the fun Page five comment they want so badly.

The problem isnt weathering the firepower. We can do that rather nicely. Its getting the blasted thing off control point so we can actually win the match. Was wondering how long until someone tried to quote page 5 on us lol.

[absent]

Yeah i'm pretty excited for galleon, already have my lists made up for it. I wasn't offended, it wasn't snarky, i was just pointing out that i've been in that same boat and still have a hard time accepting this as a minions issue, not just a gators issue.

I really believe that PP should have done a forces of minions book, farrow of the thornwood, first, and fleshed out one piece of the faction, then done the same for gators next, i think it would have been better than releasing two little mini factions and them having almost no tools available. They did mercs the same way, a couple random human and dwarf releases, all the sudden mercs got broken coast and everything changed, so it would have been nice to see them learn from that, and i understand what you mean with gators vs armor very well, but you may just have to hang on for a while longer.

[TheLoki]

Thats actually a conversation we had in the minion forums. A Splat book like Broken coast would fix pretty much everything. However i highly doubt we will ever see something like that again. I challenge you to prove me wrong pp .

[absent]

The ret book was just like broken coast basicly, so it has already happened again, it just didn't happen again again =) Ok clearly it's time to go to sleep

[x3tsniper]

I view the colossals in the light I view a model like the avatar. Avoid it, ignore it, pit it, and kill the caster. If it gets that bad sure kill it, but I have only needed to kill the avatar twice in all the times I have seen him on the board. I imagine it won't be the same as doing it to the avatar, and since he can still make ranged attacks, it won't be as ignorable, but they certainly aren't mat 10 or 11 and dropping firebombs when they kill something.

[Isante]

I played gators for awhile but got a bit tired of the pillowfisted side of them... so I sold them and got skorne.. Come join the good side where bronzebacks solve all problems

[TheNoob]

I played gators for awhile but got a bit tired of the pillowfisted side of them... so I sold them and got skorne.. Come join the good side where bronzebacks solve all problems

I'm the same way (except i went Circle). I just couldnt stand the lack of options and helplessness i felt in some games. My gf plays Menoth and has an Avatar. With no knockdown book, DW etc i just felt like i started every game at a massive disadvantage, but hell at least i could throw it off an objective. I cant imagine how much harder a Colossal would be......

[PG_relasine]

Yea i understand the problems that Searforge has but a few very real differences exist for minions. You chose to Limit yourselves to a heavily themed contract when you had access to things like 4star and highborn in order to build more well rounded take all comers list. A better example would be if Mercs only had Searforge and Talion charter to take to a tourny. 2 lists incapable of building an all comers setup with huge glaring weaknesses with no in faction overlap. If that were the case Mercs would be pretty bad off as they would have some really terrible matchups they had zero chance of dealing with. However the access to things like 4star and highborn give you very powerful and versitile lists to take.

I guess what i'm trying to say is you always had the option of breaking out into a more well rounded and less restrictive contract. Minions however is set up more like searforge and talion with its pacts severely limiting our list building options. Now i realize that this is a Minion theme and actually one of the reason i purchased the faction. However as time goes on its becoming a rather debilitating weakness.


In Summary using searforge as an example is a bit of a misnomer since you are reassuming 1 out of 4 contracts(oft regarded as the weakest) vs an entire faction. Granted minions have a striking similarity to searforge in its composition i will grant you that (and for a faction thats a problem).

You've completely missed the point of my post.

[Mod_Faultie]

We're all talking around each other now, so let's just be done. If a staffer wants to reply to concerns expressed, this won't stop them.